Talk:History of the motorcycle

Massive Errors in Logic, Facts, and Authority (lack of)

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The first sentence on this page is in error. The MOTOR cycle's history begins with the creation of the technology that created it. It did not spring from Zeus' head as a complete adult. Neither did the bicycle. Neither did the Steam Engine, and most certainly not the petroleum engine which had a painful birth over several decades. The use of a clip-on engines by bicycle shops has been inappropriately considered to be the creation of a motorcycle. It is not. It is the creation of a moto bicycle. The term for these machines throughout the world was moto bicycle for decades, and still is in some areas. The use of the word motor came much later. From the standpoint of logic, if you cannot show a straight line in development from ANY modern motorcycle (which would be best served in the golden years of the 1950s post war era, not today as too many motorcycles have become grotesques and caricatures of venerable designs, then the one off creation, the moto bicycle, has no place in the history of the Motorcycle. Neither should there be any fraudulent material admitted as if it has merit. The charlatan E.J. Pennington being a massive fraud never produced or delivered on any of his promises although he had some input in a company with some automotive credentials (like John Delorean). One off creations, unless they are the exception such as the first motorized vehicle as the Petroleum Reitwagen is, have no influence. Indeed most of the moto bicycles were produced from parts being promoted in catalogs of mix and match bicycle components, exactly as BSA, FN, De Dion-Bouton, and so many other suppliers had on offer. This is not innovation. It is just a form of copying. In examining the errors within this page, the first is in attributing the title of motorcycle to any steam machine. None of these was anything more than a curiosity. These machines have been accorded far too much recognition than their importance deserves. The Perreau Steam Velocipede was patented solely in the name Perreaux, so the name of Michaux-Perreaux is inappropriate. The machines of Roper were singular creations, although he kept making improvements, none were even sold. The Smithsonian Institute dates the first Roper at 1871. The 1867 date has been stated as being the opinion of a museum curator who was guessing. Dates given are opinions in the absence of a patent; there is no valid dated material for Roper. Copeland's machine, exists originally an artists conception made from a drawing, and might never have been built. The machine that exists is a modern creation. Steam machines were attempted for decades, and proved to be unsuccessful. They lead nowhere. They should be cataloged with steam history, not motorcycle history. The entire issue of steam history is moribund with the exceptions of ship and power plant use. The idea that E.J. Pennington made anything is ludicrous. He is a known swindler. The machine he claims to have invented is very likely to be the Hildebrand & Wolfmüller, which bears a strong resemblance to his drawing. I also reject the idea that his engine produced no heat and that he developed fuel injection. His claims were examined, and found to be completely false. His claims defy all the principles of thermodynamics and so can be completely disregarded, indeed, should be. If we accept the idea that a steam velocipede is somehow a motorcycle, then we must also include the history of the development of the steam engine as motorcycle history. That's as valid as the idea that anyone still speaks Aramaic. It's a dead end. Although Aramaic is more alive with a small village still speaking that language. Steam, by the way, was killed off by the Winton Diesel engine. Steam locomotives were not developed to a high enough level to compete with the Diesel engine. There were attempts to modernize them, but they came too late and were ineffective. There is a criterion that can be applied to what is an ancient motorcycle and what is not. It would disappoint most of the current fan base. If a moto bicycle has bicycle pedals, it's a moto bicycle, which in the modern word is a MOPED. The 1885 Petroleum Reitwagen was not. It had no pedals. The H&W was not a moped, it was push started. So is the Holden a Motorcycle, but the 1897 Werner is a moped, the 1898 Peugeot is a motorwheel, the Millet is a motorwheel, the 1898 Laurin and Klement is the first clean sheet of paper motorcycle built to be a motorcycle. The 1900 Werner has the SAME engine mounting and was patented in the pattern that many believe to be the same frame design as the modern motorcycle (but that's wrong too). The real motorcycle wasn't created until the 1910s. It wasn't the 1910 BSA, nor the 1910 FN, nor the 1911 Calthorpe, nor the 1911 Flying Merkel, nor the 1912 Excelsior which was the first timed at 100 mph, nor the 1912 NMC (from Japan), nor the 1912 Sunbeam, nor the 1912 Yale (nee California), nor the 1912 Wanderer, it could have been the 1913 New Hudson, which had no bicycle pedals. Or it could have been the 1913 W.E. Brough, the 1914 BSA. But Especially it could have been the 1914 Indian with Electric Starting. This comes closer to the modern 1970 motorcycle than any previous machine and was NOT just a clip on engine attached to a bicycle frame. In reality, the first REAL motorcycle is the 1905 Scott, with it's two cycle engine, water cooling, unconventional frame, kick starter and many other advanced features. The Scott was so advanced that it is often ignored. But these newly arrived "authors" aren't really interested in accuracy or logic. They are merely looking up obscure singular references from dubious sources which, because the reviewer lacks judgement, are being given credit where there should be none. Motorcycles that have been produced in large scale for public consumption have had internal combustion engines, either Otto, Day, Clerk, Diesel, or Wankel types. Since 1969 all modern large motorcycles have had electric starting, lights, turn signals, disc brakes, front and rear brakes, effective front and rear suspension (although some modern machines are substandard in this). All modern machines have sufficient fuel capacity to allow a useful range suitable for traveling (except cruisers which often do not). The way this page is currently written, it should be called "Things that may or may not have evolved into Mopeds, Motorwheel, and an Occasional Motorcycle IF we knew what a motorcycle is." Krontach (talk) The 1905 Scott? I presume that you can provide citations from reliable third party sources to backup that assertion? I'm guessing not, because what you have just come out with is 100% pure original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia.--Biker Biker (talk) 00:52, 24 May 2011 (UTC) If we can cite that there are authorities who consider the Scott to be the first "true" motorcycle, we should definitely mention them. And describe how those authorities define a "true" motorcycle. We can't delete mention of what other authorities say, even if we disagree with them. Without me going on at too much length on this issue, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view explains how Wikipedia wants a topic like this covered. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:02, 24 May 2011 (UTC) The suggestion of the Scott is based on merit. It was light years beyond anything else at that time. It had the first kick starter, the first radiator, a modern frame, as opposed to the bicycle frame, etc. etc. From the standpoint of what an encyclopedia wants to hear, the only valid first motorcycle is the Reitwagen. Once we start polluting the idea with qualifiers then we also have to consider the H&W, L&K (which has the best claim), the Werner 1900, and so on. Production, commercial viability, singularity are not considered in an atmosphere of absolutism in the best spirit of the Spanish Inquisition. I'll stay with the Reitwagen, because it was crank started and was a motorcycle, not a moped as so many of those things the sloppy ones call motor cycle whose creators seldom did. Technologically, the first modern motorcycle was the Scott, or the BMW R32. The Scott was extremely successful and made into the 50s. The BMW.. we know. The Carnot principle looks forward and backward as part of the test of the principle. Anyone can look backwards, and draw the wrong conclusion. The Reitwagen, while it was the first motorcycle shouldn't be credited much for this. It is in fact the progenitor of the automobile. If any machine is the progenitor of the motorcycle It's the H&W for having been the first made in quantity and which had world wide influence which helped created the industry. The Reitwagen helped create automobiles. By the way, the motoring press of 1899 hailed the L&K Model A as the first REAL moto bicycle as the previous machines were bicycle lash ups. I agree with this. Krontach (talk) 06:49, 28 May 2011 (UTC) As far as the Scott, I expect that I can come up with some fan who thinks it's the first "real" motorcycle. Now that I think of that, this was not an original idea of mine. I believe that I did find that on the web somewhere. Right now I'm not interested in it. At some point I do intend to investigate that fully. I expect I can come up with many more statements of first this and that. I have to edit the resources out there now as I find so many errors in them. There is not a single printed coffee table book on motorcycles that I have seen yet that is 100% accurate. Everyone has errors. Being produced in print, is NO assurance of authority. Is it Neutral, or ambiguous? Any history that isn't real time, is conjecture. Much of that is hype. Of course the real concern, is to keep from being sued for telling the truth. I hate to tell you guys this, but Wiki pages are full of error, opinion, copyrighted materials and are seldom neutral. I try to confine myself to things I know to be true, due to my profession. You call that original research. I call it first hand knowledge. Wiki wants nothing to do with first hand factual knowledge. So you get what you pay for. I've been very surprised in the last two days to find so many others who share my knowledge. There is a simmering irritation that I am experiencing due to the inaccurate and sloppy use of false belief with regard to automotive technology. The sloppy use of the word gas as if this were gasoline for one. The insinuation that the Reitwagen could even run on gasoline, which is false, is another. The ignorant belief that gasoline even existed in 1885 through 1908 is another. I see no mention of the Baum ratings of the petroleum fractions that were used for fuels. Ignorance is massive, and so is vandalism. Krontach (talk) 07:10, 28 May 2011 (UTC) Wikipedia is what it is - verifiability trumps truth and personal knowledge every time. You won't change that, so if you don't like it your best option is to walk away. You can choose to fight it, but others will see this as disruptive and you will quickly be blocked. --Biker Biker (talk) 17:00, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm adding a reference to E.J. Pennington back into the article. Whether or not his machines were successful mechanically is beside the point. They existed. They were built, tested (and found lacking), and photographed - there is no lack of evidence on these counts. Pennington filed for and received patents on them. The only important matter concerning Pennington was his use of the term "motor cycle" to describe his invention, not whether or not his particular motorcycles worked well. He used the term in his patents filed in 1893, the earliest known and verifiable useage of the term - and then proceeded to use the term "The Motor Cycle" in promotional literature. This is all verifiable. 99.49.36.146 (talk) 08:57, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 20 November 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. The article is about the history of the motorcycle as it stands (not the other areas proposed), and there is no barrier to making articles about those other topics. The header also conforms with almost all daughter articles as noted by the supporter Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:36, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

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Motorcycle history → History of the motorcycle – Must be consistent with "History of..." pages. George Ho (talk) 08:43, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose — A change like that means we have no main article for the history of motorcycling, motorcycle culture, economics, etc. The phrase "the motorcycle" limits it to only the machines themselves, excluding associated topics. If we were splitting off oversized articles then a title like this would make sense. Consistency is nice but not when it means distorting content to fit preconceived ideas. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:11, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

What about "History of motorcycle" or "History of motorcycling" then, Dennis? --George Ho (talk) 19:17, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

The first one is identical to History of the motorcycle except it's also ungrammatical. The second one is only about motorcycling and excludes motorcycles. A productive use of our time would be to actually add citations and content to this article, rather than try to pointlessly rename it for the sake of irrelevant consistency. Is this article title breaking something somewhere, or causing a problem? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:26, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support; the present title seems to imply history research facilitated by motorcycle travel. Might make a good band name, too. "History of motorcycle" isn't grammatical. "History of motorcycles" is against WP:PLURAL, and actually implies a different topic (a timeline of motorcycle makes and models, which this article might include but would not consist entirely of). "History of motorcycling" would be about an activity / sport / subculture, which might also be part of this article's scope, but does not encompass it. In general, we avoid "Noun history" titles, because they're grammatically iffy and potentially confusing; they look like something a blogger or high-school student would write. Consistency is not, as a matter of WP:CONSENSUS, "pointless", or we would not have a policy at WP:CONSISTENCY. So, yes, this should move, on the basis of that policy, and on the WP:COMMONSENSE rationales against the other suggestions and the present name.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:22, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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The history of the motorcycle begins in the second half of the 19th century. Motorcycles are descended from the "safety bicycle," a bicycle with front and rear wheels of the same size and a pedal crank mechanism to drive the rear wheel.[1] Despite some early landmarks in its development, the motorcycle lacks a rigid pedigree that can be traced back to a single idea or machine. Instead, the idea seems to have occurred to numerous engineers and inventors around Europe at around the same time.

The history of the motorcycle begins in the second half of the 19th century. Motorcycles are descended from the "safety bicycle," a bicycle with front and rear wheels of the same size and a pedal crank mechanism to drive the rear wheel.[1] Despite some early landmarks in its development, the motorcycle lacks a rigid pedigree that can be traced back to a single idea or machine. Instead, the idea seems to have occurred to numerous engineers and inventors around Europe at around the same time. 89.144.208.40 (talk) 18:40, 29 January 2022 (UTC)