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Talk:Hold My Hand (Michael Jackson and Akon song)

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Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

It's his new single, according to the official website: http://breakingnews.michaeljackson.com/pressrelease.html

This is undisputed, but notability is. Until the song passes one of three criteria at WP:SONGS, it should not be created. Yves (talk) 07:24, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

Criteria

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Latest comment: 14 years ago20 comments5 people in discussion

Okay what criteria is needed? Because I'm sure there are LOTS of singles on Wikipedia that don't pass them, yet are allowed to live. MaJic Talk 2 Me. I'll Listen. 17:48, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

Not many, actually. The three criteria are: charting on a national chart, significant awards or nominations, and covers by significant artists. One of these must be met, and the one that usually comes first is charting, so wait a week and it'll probably happen. For now, this single is not notable and information can just be added to the album page. Yves (talk) 17:59, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
Unfortunately, people are deleting this article without bothering to add the content to the album article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:34, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
I wonder if the review guidelines should be amended to include songs that are the subject of a dedicated review?[1] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:19, 15 November 2010 (UTC) but by the time consensus forms, one week would probably have passed and this song could be eligible for recreation. Yves (talk) 22:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC) think amending the criteria would be reasonable. This seems silly to keep deleting it. Clearly, this will be a major single. Why should it not have a page, while this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_%28Westlife_song%29) does? Applying the notability criteria, "Safe" is not notable yet, since it was just released. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ww adh77 (talk • contribs) 22:47, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
Amending the criteria takes a lot of editors and time, and I don't see how it is reasonable. Also, this page was never deleted. Assuming it will be a major single is a perfect example of how Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. One could assume the 2012 Olympics will be a major event, but it could very well be that it turns out to be the least-attended and -viewed event in history. Nothing is certain until it happens. Also, the article you are referring to is a perfect example of WP:OTHERSTUFF (a.k.a. WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS): just because we have an article on something doesn't mean we can have an article on something else like that. Again, release is not indication of notability. Yves (talk) 22:54, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
This argument does not hold. The crystal ball page you mention in fact cites the example you provide--future Olympic Games--as a future event that does warrant its own page. They go as far to say that the 2020 games are fair, since plans are already underway.Ww adh77 (talk) 00:44, 16 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
Yves: Given that you seem to be conceding that this article will pass notability in a very short time frame, why not help reduce everyone's WikiDrama level and stop deleting it? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
Because it hasn't happened. There's no drama here. And no deletion, either. Yves (talk) 22:54, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
Really? You appear to be edit-warring with multiple editors.[2][3][4][5][6] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:04, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
As of now, I have only reverted twice in the past twenty-four hours. I am allowed a maximum of three. In any case, the song has still not passed notability criteria. Yves (talk) 23:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
Please read up on WP:3RR. 3RR is a bright line, not an entitlement. You are clearly edit-warring. We have one of two options. I can report you to WP:ANI and have you be blocked or you can stop edit-warring. Personally, I would prefer the latter and not have you blocked (again, to reduce everyone's WikiDrama level).
How about as a gesture of good faith, you self-revert and we can continue to improve the article, which in turn improves the encyclopedia (which is why we're all here to begin with, remember)? A Quest For Knowledge (talk)
I would agree that approach, as it sounds reasonable. I'd rather we come to a solution that will allow those who want to begin writing and editing the article the chance to do so, rather than start turning each other in, which will only lead to animosity.Ww adh77 (talk) 23:58, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
Some additional thoughts: 1) WP: What_"Ignore_all_rules"_means emplores us to remember that "the spirit of the rule trumps the letter of the rule." The spirit of the notability rule is to prevent the creation of articles for songs that are not noteworthy. For example, the other tracks on Michael, would arguably fit that bill, since nobody knows anything about them yet, they are not being used to promote the album, they are not for sale, they are, in short, not yet in the public consciousness, in the way that this song is, 2) WP:The_rules_are_principles outlines that "sometimes editors will erroneously place a strong focus on the exact wording of policy," in this case, the policy is being used to prevent the addition of knowledge, rather than to support the creation of it. 3) The same page says to we are encouraged to use "common sense"; it is unreasonable to suggest that "Hold My Hand" is not notable on the basis of common sense, given the artist that created it and its immediate media and public interest. On these bases, I argue the article should be allowed to stand on its own.Ww adh77 (talk) 00:18, 16 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

This article blatantly fails both WP:SONG, WP:NSONG and WP:GNG. You should be aware of this. If you would like to work on the article which you keep bringing up, you may create it in your sandbox. Until it ;

  • Charts
  • Gets covered by another artist
  • Receives certification in a country or
  • Wins an award

this article does not get a page. Please also be aware that WP:OTHERSTUFF is not a valid argument as stated earlier "Because I'm sure there are LOTS of singles on Wikipedia that don't pass them, yet are allowed to live" is not a valid argument. Simply because another page has a page does not mean this page gets one. Once it because notable the redirect may be removed, until then, no. I am also going to request Protection of this page. - (CK)Lakeshade - talk2me - 00:01, 17 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

WP:SONG doesn't replace WP:NOTABLE, it supplements it. Ultimately, WP:NOTABLE is king. I feel that it is notable on its own merits. Other editors agree. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:26, 17 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
You just killed your argument for this getting a page. According to you WP:NOTABLE "is king", WP:NSONG is apart of NOTABLE. Unless one of the above criteria is present, no article. - (CK)Lakeshade - talk2me - 02:31, 17 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
No, I haven't. WP:NOTABLE says that if a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article. This song has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. There are dozens of independent, reliable sources which wrote articles about this song. It easily passes WP:NOTABLE. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:41, 17 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
This page is in no way significant coverage. 6 references? HAH, thats minimal coverage at best. Rose Colored Glasses (Kelly Rowland song) is significant coverage for a low charting song. The page looked identical before it charted, that is notability. HMH is barely a stub. Articles unlikely to expand beyond stub class should be redirected. Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been independently released as a recording by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable. Notability aside, a separate article on a song is only appropriate when there is enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album. - (CK)Lakeshade - talk2me - 02:48, 17 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
You may want to work on your Google[7] (or Bing[8]) search skills. There are hundreds (thousands?) of sources for this article. Your argument is an epic fail and it's time to move on. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:20, 17 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
Well then start the page in your sandbox and wait until it becomes notable. - (CK)Lakeshade - talk2me - 03:28, 17 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
OK, you seen to be not listening. I believe that this topic is already notable for the reasons already given: It's received significant coverage in independent, reliable sources. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:59, 17 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

We need to do a better job with citing our sources

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Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Much of the article currently has no sources. There are plenty online. A Quest For Knowledge (talk)

OK, every sentence in the body has a reference or a fact tag. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:30, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
Great work, but the song still unfortunately fails notability criteria. Yves (talk) 22:40, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

Additional reviews

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Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Huffington Post commentator Joe Vogel praised it as "a simple, but powerful song that embodies so much of what fans loved about Michael Jackson... making the personal something more profound and universal", and Vogel also stated that "With its catchy chorus and majestic crescendo it has all the makings of a big hit".[1] Toronto Star music critic Ashante Infantry praised the single as "a catchy, well-meaning addition to his catalogue".[2] MTV's Gil Kaufman stated that "the uplifting "Hold My Hand" is one of Jackson's classic love ballads, a heart-stirring call to unity" and that it ended with "a majestic feel".[3] Newsday music critic Glenn Gamboa said that the tune "finds Jackson in fine voice" and remarked, "Now this is more like it."[4]

Above in dispute at the Michael page as too much detail for that article, included here in the (unlikely) chance that this article is not deleted. We would then need to expand out the reviews section here. Sugar-Baby-Love (talk) 01:06, 18 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ Vogel, Joe (November 15, 2010). "Review: "Hold My Hand" (Michael Jackson and Akon)". Huffington Post. Retrieved November 15, 2010. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  2. ^ Infantry, Ashante (November 15, 2010). "Review: Michael Jackson back to form with Akon duet". Toronto Star. Retrieved November 15, 2010. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  3. ^ http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1652219/20101115/jackson_michael.jhtml
  4. ^ http://www.newsday.com/columnists/other-columnists/hold-my-hand-featuring-jackson-and-akon-released-1.2464436

The song in various Wikipedia language pages

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Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

It is so gratifying to note that 5 Wikipedia language pages have now taken contents of the English page of "Hold My Hand" and created pages in their languages as well. The number of such language will only grow bigger and bigger by the day. Just to show the importance of having a valid English page that can have a ripple effect and add content to non-English pages with much greater speed. It is also gratifying to note that the song is charting in more and more countries on its first week of release justifying the notability of the song. So tye initial Canadian chart entry was not a lone case. The song has even reached number 1 in a Belgian chart! More reason for notability werldwayd (talk) 20:21, 22 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

Release to Radio

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Latest comment: 9 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

It will be released to radio in the Unitited States on November 23rd. Source: [9]. Please add this to the release history. STATic message me! 21:19, 22 November 2010 (UTC)Reply


i thought it already had gone to radio on the release date of the digitally available single (let me know if i am wrong)?--65.8.191.7 (talk) 14:58, 28 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

I like Michael Jackson. he was my best singer. I love you Michael Jackson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.177.145.141 (talk) 14:43, 9 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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