Talk:Holocaust victims

Citation for 5.7 million Soviet civilans figure does not list that figure?

In the table "Classes of Holocaust victims", the entry "Soviet civilians" gives a figure of "5.7 million (excl. 1.3 million Jews)" citing https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution. But that page (as of 13 October, eg. http://web.archive.org/web/20231010071124/https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution) does not seem to give that figure, or any figure, for a number of Soviet civilians. (It does list 3.3 million Soviet POWs.) Can the citation be fixed, or another one found? If no citation can be found, should the figure be removed? Daekharel (talk) 13:32, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Please refer to this: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1071011/holocaust-nazi-persecution-victims-wwii/

It is clearly where the numbers came from, and prior to the edits by User:Tpbradbury on 25 October 2023 what the consensus on the page reflected. Claiming only 4.5 million non-Jewish Soviet civilians died is Holocaust denial, and erasing any mention of the fact that 1.3 million of the 6 million Jews were Soviet citizens is historical revisionism. The figures need to be corrected and the source added as soon as possible. I would make the necessary changes myself but I do not have 500 edits. Patriotparty1776 (talk) 09:23, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

statisa.com isn't a reliable source wp:rsp: "Statista...should not be cited directly. It may be useful as a research tool to find sources..." Please provide a reliable source, Tom B (talk) 11:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

https://web.archive.org/web/20201130211526/https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution

This is the source that Statista cites, as of December 2020, when the data was compiled. There has obviously been changes to the page since then, resulting in the discrepancy which started this thread. It clearly states "Soviet civilians | around 7 million (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews)." Please update the page with the information and source provided. Patriotparty1776 (talk) 20:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

non-arbitrary break

Seems to me that the above discussion boils down to two distinct questions:

• First question: move-and-recreate or split?
  • A) Move-and-recreate: move this article ("Holocaust victims") to a new title (about non-Jews), and then recreate/rewrite "Holocaust victims" (about Jews) - this option moves the history of this article to the new article
  • B) Split: create a new article (about non-Jews), and move content about non-Jews from the current article "Holocaust victims" to the new article - this option keeps the history of this article at this article
  • C) Neither: always an option
• Second question: what should the new article be called? Options supported so far:
  • 1. Victims of Nazi Germany
  • 2. Victims of the Axis powers and collaborators
  • 3. Victims of Axis states and its collaborators
  • 4. Victims of Nazi Germany and collaborators
  • 5. Victims of Nazi Germany and its collaborators
  • 6. Victims of Nazi persecution
  • 7. Groups targeted by Nazi persecution
  • Something else?

Have I accurately summarized the discussion so far? Should we vote on A/B/C and 1-7 to see if we have consensus, and possibly ping participants? Levivich (talk) 17:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Question 1: B. But not in two articles but in three: Jews, non-Jews (European focused) and the victims by Japan and allies/collaborators. Japan was an Axis power too. The Banner talk 19:46, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

• (C) & (6)

Question 1: (C) there is already an article on the Holocaust, another separate article about Jewish victims would be duplicating that;

Question 2: (6) "Victims of Nazi persecution" is most concise and precise (i.e. excludes victims of Nazi-fomented wars, and includes all victims of Nazi state policy). Walrasiad (talk) 03:52, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

C & Opfer der NS-Vernichtungspolitik

I recommend keeping this article, it's an eye-opener.* As for the title, it would be quite straightforward if in German: Opfer der NS-Vernichtungspolitik – escaping the confusion of how the Holocaust should be defined. I'm not able myself though to translate it concisely. Opfer der = victims of (or Opfergruppen, victim groups). NS = Nazi Germany, the entire killing machine, including collaborators under its command. Vernichtungspolitik = policy of annihilation, genocide; a total war against targeted civilian populations.

A quick, qualified estimate of the stats presented here, and in related articles, gives that 94% of all civilian victims of the Nazi terror came from areas east of Germany, and that 92% of all Jewish victims lived in Eastern Europe. 35% of the victims in Eastern Europe were Jewish, 65% were non-Jewish. Basecam (talk) 09:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

True number of Slav ww2 victims

Holocaust monopolised by Jewish lobby. Misrepresentation of Slav victims of ww2. Number of Slav victims diminished and Jewish numbers inflated for political reasons/interests. 61.69.130.129 (talk) 02:03, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Evidence? The Banner talk 10:37, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Estimates of victims table

Should the category "Soviet civilians" be labeled "Soviet non-Jewish citizens?" No political angle here - I just think it's important that it be clear that some of the 6 million Jewish people murdered were Soviets. Perhaps there is a better way to make this distinction. 45.26.61.142 (talk) 17:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

They are already sorted under Gentiles. The Banner talk 22:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Albanians victims of the holocaust

Please also add the 28,000 Albanians killed by the Nazi army to the list of Holocaust victims.

This is confirmed by many sources such as the following:

• Pearson, Owen (2006). Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism to Communism 1940–1945. Albania in the Twentieth Century. Vol. II. I.B. Tauris. p. 418. ISBN 978-1-84511-104-5.
• https://memorie.al/en/there-were-517-albanians-in-the-zemun-nazi-camp-where-132-died-from-epidemics-some-cooperating-with-the-germans-such-as-rare-confession-of-a-former-prisoner/
• Fischer, Bernd Jürgen (1999). Albania at War, 1939–1945. Hurst. p. 268. ISBN 9781850655312.

Please add Albanians as victims of the holocaust. TheIllyrian (talk) 19:46, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I can't access the first source, but the second and third don't appear to have the word "Holocaust" in them. The third source, p. 268, says 28,000-30,000 is one estimate of the number of Albanian casualties in the war. Of course not everyone who died in the war was a Holocaust victim. The Holocaust in Albania gives the number of Albanian Holocaust victims as 600 (cited to a Haaretz article and Paul R. Bartrop's encyclopedia). But those are already included in the count of Jews given in this article, and this article doesn't give a breakdown of Jews-by-country (which it probably should); there's a little bit of that in Holocaust victims#Jews. Levivich (talk) 21:18, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Capitalists?

The addition of "capitalists" to the list of politically persecuted victims of the holocaust was added by user [[1]] on revision [[2]] without adding any referenced material. None of the previous nor subsequently added references supports that claim.

Someone please either remove "capitalists" from the list or add a reference to a credible source.

91.126.156.12 (talk) 15:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Text conflicts with source re: number of Jews killed in Poland—leading to edit war

Here is the source given, which gives two sets of numbers for Jewish deaths in Poland:

• from U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: Pre-War Jewish Population 3,350,000; Number of Jews Killed 2,770,000-3,000,000; % of Jewish Population Killed 90%
• from Yad Vashem: Pre-War Jewish Population 3,300,000; Number of Jews Killed 2,900,000-3,000,000; % of Jewish Population Killed 90%

The text stated:

the Nazis murdered 3.3 million Jews, or 90 percent of its Jewish population.

Which is obviously incorrect. I corrected the text, but The Banner has reverted it twice, asserting "the quote was accurate", which it objectively is not

I don't know how to deal with this. This is as black-and-white as it gets. Surely there is an admin watching this page, as it's been locked? 11:52, 7 June 2024 (UTC) Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:52, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

So, what is wrong with the original text?

Original text: (...) the Nazis murdered 3.3 million Jews, or 90 percent of its Jewish population

New text: (...) the Nazis murdered 3 million of its 3.3 million Jews, about 90 percent of its Jewish population.

The only change is that the text is more complex IMHO. The Banner talk 15:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The original says 3.3 million died. The corrected text says 3 million. Are you saying you didn't even read the text before reverting it twice?

The corrected text should actually say "up to 3 million", as the source gives a range of 2,770,000-3,000,000. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Are your arguments so flimsy that you need personal attacks straight away? The Banner talk 22:58, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

ADMIN INTERVENTION, PLEASE.

The Banner is not engaging in good faith, and seems bent on trying to provoke something. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:43, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I can say that of you too. With my last edit I simplified the text, correcting it the desired 3 million. What do you want more? The Banner talk 08:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

There was nothing even remotely "confusing" about it, and it took calling for an admin for you to finally give in. Now we have you on record admitting that my correction was correct.

You show no sign of contrition, and every sign that your trigger finger is ready to revert anything else you don't like. Looking through your talk page history, you appear to have a history of this behaviour. Perhaps you're used to people backing down when you make a scary face? Perhaps you should waste people's time elsewhere, like Reddit or 4chan. Your "contributions" here today have been infuriatingly negative and damaging to the article. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

And again your arguments are so flimsy that you need personal attacks. The Banner talk 09:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

This is exactly the shit I'm talking about. You were black-and-white wrong, and even after admitting it, you're still spewing horseshit about "flimsy arguments". You are obviously going to be a continuing disruption at this article.

Do you get off on fucking with people? Because there's nothing else you can achieve with this disruptive manure. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

You could have settled the matter with removing two characters... The Banner talk 11:33, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 July 2024

There was 10.000 Slovenian victims of Holocaust. Please be respectful and put the right information there. So change “20.000 - 25.000 to 10.000”.

https://sl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holokavst 2A02:A444:4C2C:0:21D8:9B33:73B:DE0E (talk) 12:02, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources for that? The statement on the Slovenian Wikipedia (not suitable as a source itself) is unsourced. The Banner talk 12:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Lol, he's grossly misrepresenting what's written in the slwiki article. 10.000 Slovenes died in Auschwitz, not in whole holocaust. IP is falsifying stuff on both projects. A09|(talk) 20:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Number of Slovenian victims too high

Exactly 10.190 Slovenians died due to Holocaust. Why are they portrayed as one of the main target groups? BellatrixxxLestrange (talk) 12:46, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Source? Slatersteven (talk) 13:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Probably a sock of the above IP. Source seems to be slwiki, but OP is trying to falsify what is written on slwiki. A09|(talk) 20:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)