Talk:Homosexuality in association football

Women?

Casey Stoney and Hope Powell appear to be the only homosexual women mentioned in this article. There are dozens more.. their inclusion, though, would overwhelm the article wouldn't it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mateo LeFou (talk • contribs) 14:58, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: I'm appending to this discussion, despite its age, since this is also my main point: you added back the list of women by saying the scope is notable people who have sources about their homosexuality; you can sort List of LGBT Summer Olympians (2004–2020) by "football" to see a hundred more with sources, and that's just five Olympics' worth. There are some women currently on the list at this article who seem to play in second division football. It seems strange to have them and not more notable players, but we'll quickly find when we start trying to add the more notable players that it's just far too many. Could I suggest a scope related to international caps or some level of awards, to limit inclusion? Kingsif (talk) 14:12, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

If they have an article, they are notable and should be included - but it might merit a standalone article? GiantSnowman 17:59, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

DYK

It would do well here I think: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Did_you_know Spiderone (talk) 17:05, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

What would the hook be? GiantSnowman 17:11, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Something about it being a taboo or a list of current gay footballers Spiderone (talk) 17:15, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll suggest something like "Homosexuality is considered by some to be one of the last taboos in association football." Sound OK? GiantSnowman 17:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I can imagine it being quite popular as well. I made a grunting article and it got a few views. Spiderone (talk) 17:29, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Time references lacking

For several of the cases described in the article time references are lacking. This should be fixed so that readers won't have to go to other articles for that information. __meco (talk) 21:20, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Jermaine Jones

Jermaine Jones has made homophobic remarks in the past. I'm sure a source can be found. Spiderone (talk) 12:07, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Article name

This article is mostly about homophobia. So shouldn't it be named "Homophobia in association football"?--92.40.37.28 (talk) 07:07, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

The article was originally named "Homophobia in...", but following a discussion at WP:FOOTBALL, it was felt that "Homosexuality in..." was a better name as "Homophobia" has obviously negative connotations, and the article should try and mention positive aspects of homosexuality in football. GiantSnowman 08:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm... Actually, it had crossed my mind that it had been renamed from "Homophobia in...", though I didn't look further. GS: I notice you originally wanted to keep "Homophobia in...", but were persuaded otherwise. The charge of OR was originally levelled against "Homophobia in...", but it seems to me it could be more validly levelled against "Homosexuality in...". I need to think about this.--92.40.249.241 (talk) 21:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC) (aka 92.40.37.28)

Italy

Soccer Tarnished by Cold-Shoulder to Gays Nanonic (talk) 00:00, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

only in football/in other sports often no problems

In other sports there are today more and more open homosexual professional sportlers.

• Outsports.com
• queer.de:Olympia: Elf offen homo- und bisexuelle Sportler gesichtet, 2008 (german language)

for exampe in Olympic sport in London in summer 2012:

• queer.de:Olympia 2012: Das sind die schwulen und lesbischen Athleten, 2012 (german language)

• outsports: Openly gay and lesbian athletes at 2012

Judith Arndt (Germany), Imke Duplitzer (Germany), Carole Péon and Jessica Harrison (both triathlon), Maartje Paumen and Carlien Dirkse van den Heuvel, Seimone Augustus (basketball, USA), Marilyn Agliotti (hockey, netherlands), Natalie Cook (beachvolleyball, Australia), Lisa Dahlkvist (Sweden, football), Carl Hester (horsesport, England), Edward Gal (horsesport, Netherlands), Alexandra Lacrabère (handball, France), Hedvig Lindahl (Sweden, footbal), Jessica Landström (football, Sweden), Matthew Mitcham (Australia), Mayssa Pessoa (handball, Brazil), Lisa Raymond (tennis, USA), Megan Rapinoe (football, USA) and Rikke Skov (handball, Denmark).

178.3.21.130 (talk) 16:21, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

General subject matter articles in person-specific categories

It is not appropriate to put this article in a category for players because this article is not about a player or set of players. It is a general overview of the subject of homosexuality in a particular sport. Comparing it to placing a list of players in a category for players is invalid because of course you would put a list of a team's players in a category for the team's players. And if this were a list of LGBT footballers then of course it would go in the LGBT footballers category. This article is more than adequately categorized by its actual subject matter and should not be in categories that are for individual players. Not really sure why that's a difficult concept. Jerry Pepsi (talk) 14:55, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

The categories are fine - the topic deals with the topics of "Gay sportspeople" and "LGBT association football players" and thereofre those relavent categories are valid. Not sure why you find that a difficult concept, and not sure why you continue to remove the categories even though I asked you to discuss the matter before editing. GiantSnowman 15:11, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I understand the concept perfectly. That's the issue, that these are articles about concepts and they don't belong in categories that are for people. I have to ask what you find so complicated about that concept. "The categories are fine" is not a valid argument, because clearly the categories are not "fine" since they are for people and not generalized concepts. Jerry Pepsi (talk) 02:34, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

The article deals with homosexual sportspeople. The categories deal with homosexual sportspeople. The two are linked - as simple as that. GiantSnowman 09:52, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Move to chronological order

I think this article would be better in a chronological order rather than a country by country layout. Many of these footballers who have come out and / or been subject to homophobic attitudes have played football in multiple countries and in some cases across multiple continents. Also headlines and stories relating to homosexual and homophobic football personalities tend to be carried in multiple countries and the impact of the stories is international. For these reasons the impact of the story has ramifications and implications across multiple countries and breaking the story up by country doesn't tell the complete story.--TinTin (talk) 05:55, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that seems sensible - though we could maybe still have a section about regional differences. Most players that have come out so far appear to be in Europe. Nationality is also already covered in the 'List of gay footballers' section. GiantSnowman 12:50, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

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List of gay footballers

Do we really need this list ? It is neither complete nor encyclopedic useful. —AiPee213-100 (talk) 12:40, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes; it needs expansion, but is useful for the topic. GiantSnowman 12:44, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

I really do not understand how and why this list'd be useful ? It is by far not complete, and not to mention that we already have a list of LGBT sportspeople. Which imho as well isn't neither encyclopedic nor ethical.

I do not understand why Wikipedia has to mention and keep track of the sexual orientation of sportsmen and -women. Cheers, AiPee213-100 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:15, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Nonbinary individuals

Since this is a list of LGBT footballers and not just homosexual footballers, it would be useful to have a category for people who do not fall within the man/woman binary. Quinn is the first one who comes to mind. Kelsiesmith7 (talk) 18:14, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. GiantSnowman 19:43, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

England section

An edit I made to the England section of the article was reverted, so I'm coming here to discuss. Imv there's no need for there to be 31 separate paragraphs, the majority of which is just one singular sentence on WP:MILL content - (insert footballer here) was homophobically abused by fans. Would it not be better to condense it into something like my last edit? Pinging @GiantSnowman: for your opinion. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 13:14, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Improve the format? Absolutely. Remove content & sources? No. GiantSnowman 13:17, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I set out to do exactly the former in the last edit, moving all of the homophobically abused players into one section and the fans accused of homophobic chanting into another. The only piece of content I removed was regarding Sol Campbell, who was already covered in the new section about homophobically abused players, ergo a second citation would have been unnecessary. Other than that, I can't exactly tell what part of my edit you're objecting to here. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 13:23, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I do not understand how, in simply moving things around, you lost over 1,000 characters? GiantSnowman 13:33, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

The big one in terms of characters was the Sol Campbell citation which I mentioned already. The rest would've been moving the players to this sentence covering homophobically abused players - rather than "Player X was homophobically abused, Player Y have been homophobically abused" etc, it takes up less characters to say "Players X, Y, Z (et al) have been homophobically abused", thus explaining the drop in characters. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 13:37, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Help with categorising

I have started to make categories for LGBT soccer/association football players by country, see the page Category:LGBT association football players by country. I was wondering if anyone could help add to these categories and make more? Help would be appreciated. Thanks! Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 07:36, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

England section too long

Considering that England has a separate article devoted to the topic, can someone reduce the size of this section, please? It looks disproportionate. Ser!, GiantSnowman, anyone? Laterthanyouthink (talk) 08:29, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to merge the content from this main article to the sub-article, as I did recently with Racism in association football and Racism in English football. GiantSnowman 08:35, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Laterthanyouthink, I agree with you on the disproportionate length of the section. I'll have a crack at reducing the size of the section by condensing it into a paragraph about players who've been homophobically abused. Probably better than an individual mention of each isolated incident. I think a lot of the section's content is already included in the sub-article, but I'll also take a look at that. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 11:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

If we're doing clean-up, can we have a proper discussion about the scope of the article? I really think it should be topic-based rather than accumulating lists of simple statements that say "thing related to homosexuality and football happened. Other thing happened" (and on), which is unencyclopaedic in tone and encourages unencyclopaedic content to be added. Incidents of homophobia and other things may belong at other articles, while this one can summarise attitudes. And revisit the suggestion of splitting out the list of women's players. Kingsif (talk) 13:41, 16 March 2024 (UTC)