Talk:Honda NC700D Integra

Motorcycle not scooter

I just moved the article from Honda Integra (scooter) to Honda Integra (motorcycle) because, however Honda choose to market this vehicle, it is clearly a motorcycle according to the definition given at Scooter (motorcycle). The engine is contained in the frame at the front of the vehicle, the transmission uses conventional gears (albeit with DCT), and it has a chain drive. Per Wikipedia:The duck test it is a motorcycle. --Biker Biker (talk) 11:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Thinking about it, the less controversial approach is simply to call the article by its model name per WP:COMMON. So I just renamed it (again). --Biker Biker (talk) 11:23, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

The various Honda pages worldwide classify it as a scooter.
Honda Australia (urban scooter)
Honda Germany (roller/scooter)
Honda UK (scooter)
Using the duck test, it rides like a scooter (twist and go), it has a full fairing and it has undersea storage. The trend towards larger scooters defying traditional scooter styling is also noted in maxi-scooter section of the the article on scooters. These are still accepted by the mass media as scooters. FlyingOtter (talk) 11:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

To me, both (scooter) and (motorcycle) can be seen as controversial if the vehicle is a motorcycle marketed as a scooter, which is why I plumped for the model name. Do you disagree with the article name Honda NC700D Integra and if so, why? --Biker Biker (talk) 11:54, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the article move to the model name, just the classification of the vehicle as a motorcycle as opposed to a scooter. It is marketed as a scooter by Honda (see links above) and to me satisfies the definition of a maxi-scooter. Importantly, it is accepted (in Australia) as a scooter for insurances purposes and qualifies for lower premiums.FlyingOtter (talk) 12:08, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Understood. So let's see what others have to say about the motorcycle vs scooter because it's clear that the two of us don't agree. I'll let the article stand for now though - I don't want to get into an edit war. --Biker Biker (talk) 13:34, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

"Scooter" and "motorcycle" are artificial constructs, both very poorly defined. The lead should be phrased in a way that says "called a scooter by..." and "classified as a motorcycle in..." To me it's the same as whether the Honda CBR250R (2011) is a beginner bike or a "big" sport bike. It depends on your point of view. Same with the ancient debate over what the Honda Super Cub is. The article's credibility is damaged in the eyes of half the readers if Wikipedia takes a definite position one way or the other, so present both and explicitly attribute them to sources. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 14:49, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Further afield

Charles Falco has noted many times how conservative motorcyclists are; they really hate new bikes, and new technology like hub center steering often dies on the vine when offered to existing bikers. Add to that one of the greatest marketing coups in history, the Honda Super Cub again, and you see how well you can do if you frame your new product as not a motorcycle. Honda seems very motivated in this direction; note the Honda Crossrunner. Breaking away from existing paradigms turns off the small group of conservative motorcyclists, but attracts a much larger audience of new riders. So you often see marketing claims that a new bike is a whole new category. Note the use of Urban Mobility Vehicle by BMW -- instead of just calling it a maxi-scooter. The Ducati Diavel is another example of trying to carve out a new niche, rather than just sell to cruiser riders. Even the Suzuki Hayabusa was marketed by Suzuki as being in a class by itself, "Hypersport".

Explaining all this stuff to the reader makes articles much more interesting than only reeling off bore and stroke and rake angle. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 14:58, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Classification by Honda

I think part of the issue is that Honda has not been consistent in the way it has been marketed. NC700 Project Manager Masanori Aoki has been quoted as saying it was conceived as more a motorcycle than a scooter. It appears to me that Honda has allowed individual markets to decide how they want it classified. In the UK, Australia and Germany, Honda markets the Integra as a scooter. In the Netherlands, it is marketed as a tourer. On the Italian Honda site, it is linked from both the motorcycle and scooter pages. On Honda Japan's site, motorcycles are grouped by displacement class although I note that the equivalent page for this article on Japanese Wikipedia states that it is a scooter. That said, I agree that this page should be left until there is general consensus. Or might I propose that we use the term Maxi-scooter/tourer in the infobox? FlyingOtter (talk) 21:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Added section Honda NC700D Integra#Marketing to the article for this information. — Brianhe (talk) 00:44, 8 June 2012 (UTC)