Talk:Horse behavior

Nice job moving this article from the horse page and illustrating it! Montanabw 15:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Obstacle avoidance in horses

here is a question to the experts among you: is it true that horses, even if running in a large group at high speeds, as a rule manage to avoid running into small obstacles, such as isolated trees or a standing human? I know that cows don't, because they seem to run over anytihng in their way. But, I have been brought up in the belief that one could in principle survive standing in the path of a herd of running horses, provided one is quite visible. Any truth to this? Dietwald 09:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Some truth, yes. Horses like solid footing and hate stepping on squishy things--like humans! They also know it hurts to run into things like trees and fence posts. So, when possible, they prefer to avoid trampling things. Obviously, the ability isn't perfect or magical--they can slip in the mud, trip over unseen objects, fail to see wire fences or utility pole guy wires, etc., and by doing so might run into something they shouldn't.

So if you were to be caught in a herd of stampeding horses with nowhere to escape, standing still and upright--with your arms out to make yourself appear even bigger, might be your best option to not be trampled. Even with just one or two horses running at you, your best chance of not being run over by accident is to stand still but to raise or wave your hands to make yourself as visible as possible. They probably will stop when they get to you anyway, but some like to cut it a little close.

Cattle, being less agile, are more adapted to just plowing through whatever is in front of them. However, even cows tend to avoid large, solid objects, like trees...and if they have a choice, will also try not to step on squishy things, though it's harder for them to avoid doing so sometimes...and for smaller things, they have a thicker hide than a horse, so it's easier for them to ignore things like brambles, barbed wire, willow sticks, etc... Montanabw 18:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. So next time I go to Wyoming, I'll feel much safer...;) (well, it'll be the first time I go if I went...) Dietwald 07:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

In other languages

The Russian Wikipedia has a partially overlapping article specifically about horse herds, over here. The first section deals with herds in the wild, while the second deals with herds in captivity. Just thought I'd mention it, since this article is strangely bereft of interwiki links currently... Esn 04:26, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Hope you know how to add links to the other language wikis, I really haven't ever tried to do it. Feel free to add the language link if you feel it appropriate. Montanabw 00:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Discuss terminology here, not more edit warring, please

Discussion of herd behavior should be carried out here instead of reverting and edit warring. Wild horses are subject to considerable anthromorphism and romanticism. I suggest that this sections begin to be sourced. To that end, I have started to add some material.

If there are differences of opinion, then the controversy should be worked out here and if consensus cannot be reached, the controversy itself can be described and discussed in a fair manner within the article, not by an edit war of reverting other people's hard work. Thanks Montanabw 19:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Sleep Patterns of "Prey" Animal

Currently:

"This is to be expected of a prey animal, one that needs to be ready on a moment's notice to flee from predators."

(Etc., about "prey" status.)

Do mice sleep standing up? Can a cat, a "predator" be killed and eaten if caught asleep?

So it looks like the issue is not being "prey", but the specific nature of the horse and its environment -- being exposed on grassy plains, having a certain time delay to get standing and start running, having limited self-defense capabilities and limited group social defense behavior.

But being Wikipedia that thesis needs to be supported by references -- not my logic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.148.235 (talk) 19:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

There are references, and if you feel more are needed, feel free to add the "fact" tag and we can dig up yet more. I can see if rephrasing the sentence clarifies matters. Montanabw^(talk) 05:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I used to vollenter at a horse farm in high school. When i was feeding them, they would bite, kick, and head butt each other over who got to eat first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.185.192.82 (talk) 03:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Saddleing Troubles

Hello,

we are having a problem with our mare freaking out when saddled. We have had her one year was told she was slightly cinchy but she never did anything. Over the winter she reared after getting the saddle on then was fine for the rest of the winter.

This Spring she started getting nervous when you put the saddle on but doesn't do much until you lunge her with it on. Then she bucks, kicks and races around. after a while she calms done and is fine. We have had a chiropractor and a therapist work on her but could not find anything significant...no soreness. The chiropractor did say she had very tight neck and shoulder muscles that we do stretches for and they have gone down a lot but hasn't changed her behavior.

She does not act like she is being naughty but more like she is afraid and is trying to get-away from something. What else could this be? I want to help her. Thank you, Cynde —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.52.255.9 (talk) 15:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, this is an area for discussing the article on saddling. I recommend you post your question over on the horse section or Yahoo! Answers or some of the other horse chat forums (Horse Illustrated magazine also has a good one for beginners). There are usually some good people there who can help you. You may also want to look for a good horse trainer in your local area who can give you personal advice. Good luck! Montanabw^(talk) 06:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Herd Behavior: Article quite informative; however, could not find my particular issue within the topic of Herd Behavior. My problem - a new horse was introduced to my herd of 4 (2 geldings, 2 mares.) The herd boss (mare) and her best buddy (gelding) almost immediately chased the new horse away from the herd and kept him away from the rest by quite a distance. No biting, but both herd boss and her buddy stood between the new gelding and the other two horses of the herd. Basically isolating him from the grass, water source etc. I ended up bringing him into the barn area to allow water and hay to be available. All these horses are "retirees" so to speak and are on my property as a retirement place for lack of a better term. Any advice on how to get the new gelding re-introduced to the herd and to be accepted? Thank you for any help with this matter. Paula

Well, this isn't a problem-solving forum, so note the advice given to the person above. But to answer you anyway, what's going on is just a dominance battle. If no one is fighting, then over time the new horse may be accepted into the herd. (However, horses are like 1000 pound cats, and sometimes just will be quirky and decide to pick on one member of the herd. I don't know why) For more advice, though, I'd go to a bulletin board forum where you are apt to get a wide range of answers. Montanabw^(talk) 18:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced Claims

I am no expert in horse behavior, but I noticed that much of the information in this article is not attributed to any source. Some of it may therefore be original research. I have added tags noting this issue. 69.211.26.45 (talk) 06:06, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Change of article headline

The headline could and should be changed to Domesticated horse behavior or an additional section with the different behavior of asses is needed.

Reason for that being is that the Ass is a member of the horse family and does show some quite different behavior. Please compare the [African Wild Ass] with this article.Amrbc (talk) 14:26, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

This article is about horses, not asses. No need for a title change. The only living true "wild" horse species is the Przewalski's horse. If someone wishes to create a separate article on the behavior of asses, I would not stop them. Montanabw^(talk) 02:30, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Audio samples of each of the different type of vocalizations/sounds please?

I think it would be great if the article had audio samples of each of the different types of noises horses make. That would be particularly useful for people not 100% familiar with English, as well as people that haven't been around horse related conversations much. --TiagoTiago (talk) 02:04, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

If you find any, put the URL here are we will take a listen. Montanabw^(talk) 23:04, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Sources parking lot

• http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2062/

Stallion behaviour in all-stallion groups

I have seen references to stallions in all-stallion (domesticated) paddocks in the middle-east, where large owners keep more ungelded horses than is usual in the US and Europe, forming pair-bonds and "looking out" for each other in the wider group. This seems to help to stablise the social structure of what is in effect a large bachelor group, and decreases aggression. I have no reference for this, so will not try and add it to the article, but I find it interesting. In a smaller, domensticated group I notice that a newly added (elderly) mare quickly sought the companionship of the largest gelding, presumably for the same reason. I have no information on how domestic all-mare, non-breeding groups organise themselves (this is probably a rare situation). 212.159.59.41 (talk) 10:19, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

All-stallion "bachelor herds" are used by the Piber Federal Stud with young Lipizzans as well. I have not seen specific "pair bonds" discussed, though horses in general DO seem to have "buddies" that they get along with better than others within a herd. If you find some source material here, feel free to share the link as herd dynamics are rather interesting in that respect. Montanabw^(talk) 17:14, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Harassment/Abortion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Other_animals
if someone wants to include this..
btw: the etymology of the word Harassment by itself is interesting when it comes to horses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment#Etymology Paranoid Android1208 (talk) 21:10, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Looks to be more medical than behaviorial. Montanabw^(talk) 15:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I meant the last sentences: "Feticide can occur in horses and zebras due to male harassment of pregnant mares or forced copulation,[156][157][158] although the frequency in the wild has been questioned.[159]

Role of the lead mare

Montanabw Why I am not wondering about your revert... That sentence made no sense you are right, but you deleted the wrong sentence ... this one is definitvely wrong: She takes the lead when the herd travels, determines the best route, when to move from one place to another, and claims the right to drink first from watering holes and stake out the best location for grazing. Prof. dr. Charlotte K. Hemelrijk (one of the authors) is the leading expert in self-organization in social systems. http://www.rug.nl/research/behavioural-ecology-and-self-organization/people/hemelrijk Etron770 (talk) 07:52, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

That writer's work has nothing to do with horses, the works discuss fish and birds. Totally different situation. Montanabw^(talk) 19:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Again she is expert in self-organization in social systems not depending of the species. Additionally to fishes and birds she is author of papers with mammals and theoretical papers about social systems.

The article you keep sourcing is apparently being misquoted and misinterpreted by you. It actually verifies the role of the dominant mare: "The frequency with which an individual initiates movement has been shown to correlate with the frequency of its agonistic inter-actions with other group members, i.e. with its dominance rank". The writers set up a false analogy to argue that only the lead mare can initiate movement, either the earlier studies they cited were flawed, or these researchers misread them. I can restore the source, but will describe it properly. Montanabw^(talk) 19:38, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

you did an revert of 86.33.215.47 ... al least the changes of herd to group must not be reverted. Did you read the full paper. It was about movement initiations of groups not herds. I am sure you know the different between herd and group. Additionally 86.33.215.47 wrote: Change of emphasis in wording to clarify that the research by Krüger et. al. does not verify the leadership of a lead mare, but rather contradicts Isn't it?""

Another source (from 1988) is describing that not only the dominant mare is leading: Among the adult mares one can identify the head group or "nucleus", which consists of the dominant mares (3-5), and is the basic structural and functional unit of the herd. In particular, the mare "nucleus" controls the direction of movement in pasturing, in travel, and in flight from danger. Under extreme conditions the leadership was generally taken over by Volga, the oldest and most experienced mare of the herd.. Keiper, R. R. (1988). Social interactions of the Przewalski horse (Equus przewalskii Poliakov, 1881) herd at the Munich Zoo. Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci., 21(1-2), 89–97.

It actually verifies the role of the dominant mare ??? are you sure? Departures from the group All horses, except two yearlings in group 3, departed from the group (numbers of individual departures: Table 1 ; mean departures per group: Table 3 ). No member of any group departed significantly more often than any other member of their own group, irrespective of age or sex ( t -test: group 1: N = 11, T = 0, P = 1; group 2: N = 19, T = 0.003, P = 0.99; group 3: N = 25, T = 0, P = 1; Table 1 ). The higher the social rank of the horse, the more often it was fol- lowed by others ( Fig. 1 a; Fisher’s combination test: N = 3, 2 = 28.7, P = 0.004, results for separate groups: Table 3 , individual data: Fig. 3 , Table 1 ).Etron770 (talk) 09:56, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

I am 86.33.215.47 - Kate Farmer - one of the co-authors of the study. I made the wording change, and I wrote the article http://horsetalk.co.nz/2014/01/08/concept-lead-mare-myth/#axzz2qGhHFiV7. I can confidently say that I have not misunderstood our own study, or my own article about it - and there were 3 key findings. 1) There was no evidence to support the notion of a lead mare who is always followed by the group. High ranking horses were followed more often, but by no means exclusively, and not necessarily by all group members. 2) Mares were not always in the top position in the rank order. 3) Herding by the group stallion (or highest ranking stallion in the group) initiated movement by the whole group on each occasion it was observed, whereas the departure of a group member may or may not result in the movement of some or all of the others. It is important to bear in mind that these observations were made on 3 groups of feral horses during their normal, day to day routine. There was no predator pressure, and no shortage of resources. Other patterns might be observed under different circumstances. The main point was that the idea of a "lead mare" who takes the lead all or most of the time was not supported and contradicts the statement "'She takes the lead when the herd travels, determines the best route, when to move from one place to another,". As pointed out above, the word "herd" in this statement may be misplaced, and I think the writer is refering to groups. As in any description of behaviour, I think we must all be careful to avoid words such as "always" and "never" or to suggest that anything is written in stone and always the case. There may be some groups where one mare does initiate all or most of the movement - but we didn't see one. We can't say this is never the case - just that it isn't always the case, and it is misleading to suggest that it is.

It is threfore incorrect to say that our reseearch verifies the concept of a lead mare. It doesn't - it quite clearly contradicts it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.33.215.47 (talk) 09:46, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

To say that the lead mare is "always" followed by the group is an illogical straw man argument and using such a silly all-or-nothing concept in the study was sloppy. (Or else, if the study from the 70s that was cited actually claims that, it was itself a ridiculous, sloppy study). I've seen these sorts of "studies" before - you get a grant, hire a bunch of undergraduates to track easy-to-track data and reach a foregone conclusion (where I live, they had a guy over at MSU study whether too much grain makes horses "hot" - I suppose someone needed to "prove" the obvious, but duh - and the guy's conclusion was to keep horses a little underfed and underweight, which could also have health consequences that no one looked at. Waste of money, but it kept some work-study students going) This wikipedia article does not use "always" or "never" language, or should not (I saw one thing, and softened it) and if there is some in there, it is reasonable to soften it. This study is useful preliminary data, but not conclusive, you defined "movement" as moving about what - three meters? That is a pretty minor movement, particularly when you consider that horses in wild or feral conditions might travel 50 miles in a day. You fail to consider the reality that the whole herd stays on the lookout for predators, food sources, etc. The study is also pretty weak to say that only the alpha stallion engages in herding behavior, thought that was qualified; I've certainly seen lead mares herd other mares. Montanabw^(talk) 18:20, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

and another source: Bourjade, M., Thierry, B., Maumy, M., & Petit, O. (2009). Decision-making in Przewalski horses (Equus ferus przewalskii) is driven by the ecological contexts of collective movements. Ethology, 115(4), 321–330.

Likewise, start attempts relied on single or simultaneous first movers that could either be primers or not. This indicates a distributed social process between group members that belies the traditional report of a consistent leader in horses (Feist & McCullough 1976; Berger 1977).

Montanabw: Do you want to persist in the old fashion opinion or the newer one? The sentence She tends to take the lead when the herd travels, determines the best route, when to move from one place to another, and claims the right to drink first from watering holes and stake out the best location for grazing. is wrong an should be deleted and a leading mare of herd is two times wrong ... a herd has no dominant mare or stallionEtron770 (talk) 14:09, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

It exaggerates to say group leadership is "distributed" - that is not wholly accurate, either and fails to account for a known herd hierarchy. I read the whole thing. It clearly indicates that more dominant horses are followed by others to a greater degree than less-dominant horses, but not all the time. That's all it verified. It's also "proving" what is blatently obvious to any long-time horseman or horsewoman. It does not "disprove" that there are no dominant individuals, in fact, it verifies that there is a herd hierarchy and that more than half the time, the animals will travel in something approximating rank order when they do follow a leader. It was only clear that the alpha stallion is usually the animal most prone to herd from behind - though there are exceptions to that as well. Montanabw^(talk) 18:20, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

After reading the article section and without reading this thread (naughty me), I posted the following at a second thread below on this same topic. "Role of the lead mare: This section gives conflicting information. The idea of a "Lead mare" is not supported by the 1 reference that is given. The section needs further references, or should follow the information given in the source." Clearly, there is still a problem with this section which needs resolving. Perhaps we should start with the title - is there such an animal as a "lead mare"? If so, there should be a good source to verify this.DrChrissy ^(talk) 11:16, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Montanabw posted the following below - I have copied it here to try to keep a single thread in one place. Montanabw posted "It's a complex topic. Clearly horse herds have a hierarchy and mares are leaders. The idea that the harem stallion "leads" the herd is a myth, he is a protector and such, but the mares are the leaders to water, etc. Recent studies actually indicate that leadership is even more complex then a straight hierarchy; some horses have leadership roles in one domain (first to eat, first to drink) but not others (another horse may decide when to move to new grazing, etc.). My own thinking is that this article should be subjected to an article improvement drive where the most recent research is reviewed and added. With common sense. (There is a lot of nonsense research out there, too...)"

I certainly agree with the idea of an improvement drive. So let's start with this aspect of horse behaviour. You stated "Clearly horse herds have a hierarchy and mares are leaders." I have absolutely no problem with the first part of this sentence, but can the second part be verified?" (By the way, the spheres of dominance approach is not new, but we can discuss that later.)DrChrissy ^(talk) 01:21, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I have just spent several hours going through GoogleScolar searches relevant to lead mares. I have found no quantitative evidence that these animals exist, but there are several anecdotal statements which indicate some people believe they exist. I have re-written the section to reflect this.DrChrissy ^(talk) 14:23, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

herd -> Group

Just a question: The word herd is colloquially used for groups but a heard is build up of several groups, the dominance hierarchy is inside the group. In my opinion the word herd in the text should be substituted with group if it describes not the conglomeration of groups. Etron770 (talk) 14:51, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

That is a distinction without a difference. Band, herd, "group", used interchangeably in English, "group" is a meaningless generic word, the other two sometimes even a regional dialect difference. (A "herd" or band" be 3-4 animals) and if you want to dispute this, can you cite to a glossary so we aren't just arguing? There is a hierarchy whether there are 2 or 20 horses. Montanabw^(talk) 02:47, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

seems that your are right ;-) I tried to find out how it is used in scientific papers. The scientist which are observing lager populations like feral horses are using herd for the population and group for the harems. Scientist which observed captive horses are using both, group and herd for groups. Back to the page: The page itself is inconsistent

"Group" is a meaningless word in horse circles, some scientists might use it, no one else does. A "group" is merely a classification mechanism for "stuff that's together." (As in, "get your poop in a group!" -- i.e. to get organized. LOL!) The English language is inconsistent...  ;-P Montanabw^(talk) 20:26, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Herd behavior in the wild: Feral and wild horse herds are usually made up of several separate small bands who share a given territory.

Your concern? -- keep in mind that all "wild" horse are feral, other than the Przewalski's horse. But your point is...? We are dealing with dialects of English here -- In US ENglish, a band or a herd usually means the same thing to most people, "herd" implies horses all together, not multiple "groups" joined together into a bigger "group" (or "bunch" or "herd" or what-have-you). (There is only one "herd" stallion, and his "herd" could be one or more than a dozen mares, a "small herd" versus a "large herd") But for example, in Australia, with feral horses there, they say a "mob of Brumbies."

That said, "herd" CAN have a second meaning- the total group, such as the "Location XYZ herd" meaning several hundred biologically consistent feral (or wild) animals in a several hundred thousand-acre area, such as the Pryor Mountain Mustang "herd". In those cases, you see "band" and "herd" used to distinguish the two sizes of groups, but not consistently. Or on a farm, people might call all the horses they own in total a "herd" even if they keep them in smaller groups in different pastures -- AND the smaller group is also called a "herd". Montanabw^(talk) 20:26, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Role of the stallion: The edge of the herd is the domain of the herd stallion..

The reader could think (together with the chapter "Herd behavior in the wild") that there is one stallion for the whole population. Wouldn't it be better to change herd to group or band whenever it is not describing the whole population? Etron770 (talk) 06:16, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

No, as the size of a stallion's band/group/herd/harem is explained previously, but that said, the role of the stallion section needs some other work and more sourcing. Montanabw^(talk) 20:26, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I have just been doing some fairly bold editing in this area. I hope this is not interpreted as disruptive, it is certainly not intended to be. To me, it seemed that the article was drawing a distinction between bands (small units of horses) and herds (collections of several bands). If this is not the case, we may need to re-write, but I strongly suggest we need to get good sources and keep the terminology consistent.__DrChrissy (talk) 20:53, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

As I wrote above both terms are used mixed also in scientific literature. If there is an article about more than one bachelor band, the scientists are using herd for the population and group or band for the smaller units. I can give you couple of sources. No words about the use colloquially in all languages ...

Maybe herd and group/band should be defined at the first use in the article and used consistently in the rest (and in other equine articles)Etron770 (talk) 06:36, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Impossible. "Herd" is the generic term used as a default. Words like "band", "mob" and so on have regional or national uses. "Group" is an even more generic word that has a place, but no specific meaning. I'd rather see our energy put into sourcing than fights over terminology. Better to say "researcher FooFoo studied a "foo" of X number of horses, that did [whatever], and concluded [this]." and leave it at that. DrChrissy, bold is often helpful, but I'm going to tweak some of what you did, in particular I am going to restore some material but tag it. There are some important concepts worth finding sources for Montanabw^(talk) 03:38, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

That's OK. The article is seriously lacking in GOOD references but occassionally I tend to delete rather than peppering an article with ...just an editor style. Having lived in Australia for 13 years, I am very familiar with a "Mob of brumbies". I always though this was synonymous with "a herd", although I never looked at it analytically.__DrChrissy (talk) 14:53, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Precisely. "mob" = "herd" but I presume you don't say "band." (unless you are talking about a musical group?) And you do say "herds" of cattle and sheep...? As for deletion, it sort of depends. On these old articles, there is really no need to tag everything, just the refimprove tag at the top says "lots of unsourced things here." To me, the only stuff to toss is that which is untrue or fringe, the rest can just stay unsourced and only do specific cn tags for stuff you think may be total crap. (or if beyond total crap, delete that per BRD.) Montanabw^(talk) 02:37, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't remember ever hearing about a "band" of brumbies. If the term has been used and this can be cited, perhaps it can be introduced as a regional term, but if it is only one author using the term, that sounds too unencyclopaedic to include. With regards to my bold edits, I guess it is sometimes a matter of opinion whether something is dross, fringe, etc. Please go ahead and make any changes/reverts. If there is any disagreement, I am sure we can solve this as amicably as we have in the past.__DrChrissy (talk) 17:46, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Precisely, and that is what I was trying to explain to Etron770 about regional and dialect terms. I'll get back to this article eventually, have been shepherding some other drahmanz these last few days... Montanabw^(talk) 00:47, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I know this problem and as I wrote it is also the same in the scientific literatur. But scientits are using the terms not mixed in one paper.

The terms are used not clear enough in Horse Behaviour, and I thougt it could be possible to use the terms clearly in the article. Never mind its not a major problemEtron770 (talk) 06:17, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

If several scientsts have used the term and good sources can be provided, then it can be included with suitable wording that this is perhaps a minority use of the terms. I'm not arguing for the inclusion because I don't know the literature well enough to know how notable this use is - I am simply saying there are ways of including such information.__DrChrissy (talk) 18:42, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

This whole discussion is a pain in the ass. Let's drop it, please. The article overall needs some work, but this obsession with terminology is ridiculous. Probably the best solution is to stya with the phrasing used in each source, i.e. "Researcher Foo studied a 'group' of X horses"; but "Researcher Schmoo studied a 'band' of Y horses" ; while "Researcher Schmee studied a 'herd' of Z horses." Annoying, but probably the only solution. English is a funny language that way. Montanabw^(talk) 19:53, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I was just sitting 2 hours and was looking for source .. so here are some :-)

Havemeyer Workshop Claudia Feh

William D. McCort The University of Wyoming, Laramie

The Domestic Horse Maybe you are lucky an the useful pages will be shown..

Wayne L. Linklater1, Elissa Z. Cameron1 Social and spatial structure and range use by Kaimanawa wild horses

and others

But .. I can give also a lot of sources where herd is used for small groups, but only when there is no description of other groups living in the same area.Etron770 (talk) 20:10, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

And I can google 10 million times "herd" is used. Let's just drop this, please. English speakers use all of the above and then some. I'm starting to feel run over by a mob of Brumbies over this thing! Montanabw^(talk) 20:43, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Ok. Let's "trot on"!__DrChrissy (talk) 00:40, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Montanabw, we are talking from different things: You are talking about clarifing terminology, thats a never ending story. The ISES members, especially some members of the council, are trying this since years.(the complete terminolgy in equitation science) So I agree to stop talking about this. I am talking about the use of the terms inside *one* article, especially this one. The terms are uses, so that the reader is not able to differ between small group size and conglomerate of groups. An there is no scientific article where the same term is used (whatever they used) for both like in this article:

Horses are highly social herd animals that prefer to live in a group. group -> small size

There also is a linear dominance hierarchy in any herd Herd is used for small size, if not the dominance between groups/bands is less researched.

Feral and wild horse "herds" are usually made up of several separate, small "bands" which share a territory. Herd is used for the groups together

In herds, there is usually a single "herd" or "lead" stallion (small group)

Horses have evolved to live in herds. As with many animals that live in large groups,.. (groups for size >30?)

and so on. Couldn't anybody clearify this, doesn't matter what terms are used?Etron770 (talk) 07:20, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I guess the answer is, "it doesn't really matter," but with the caveat that probably my "researcher foo says 'herd' but researcher Schmoo said 'group'" example could be followed when relevant. (I have heard people refer to two horses as a "herd", just saying). As far as standardization, the equitation science people are kind of annoying when they spend a lot of time and effort to "prove" (or disprove) things that good horsemen have known for centuries. I suppose someone needs to do this with so many people living in cities and the knowledge conveyed for centuries via oral tradition not being preserved, but still. I get really worried when I see some studies that are poorly designed and get counter-intuitive results, but yet they get published. Montanabw^(talk) 21:50, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Role of the lead mare

Role of the lead mare: This section gives conflicting information. The idea of a "Lead mare" is not supported by the 1 reference that is given. The section needs further references, or should follow the information given in the source.DrChrissy ^(talk) 11:01, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

I posted the above without realising there was already a thread on this topic. I will repost it on the thread above, so please take comments there to keep the page tidy.DrChrissy ^(talk) 11:10, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

It's a complex topic. Clearly horse herds have a hierarchy and mares are leaders. The idea that the harem stallion "leads" the herd is a myth, he is a protector and such, but the mares are the leaders to water, etc. Recent studies actually indicate that leadership is even more complex then a straight hierarchy; some horses have leadership roles in one domain (first to eat, first to drink) but not others (another horse may decide when to move to new grazing, etc.). My own thinking is that this article should be subjected to an article improvement drive where the most recent research is reviewed and added. With common sense. (There is a lot of nonsense research out there, too...) Montanabw^(talk) 22:31, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

New discussion

It's too confusing to tease out all the old threads above, so let's look at them here. I reviewed the studies cited and drew very different conclusions from the other editor, probably because a) I know horses quite well, and b) There is simply very, very little rigorous study out there, and most of the newer stuff has been what I call "proving the obvious" stuff that I suppose must be done, but it still seems very silly (like the study I mentioned about how someone "proved" that too much hot feed made horses harder to handle...duh) or, very poorly designed studies to "prove" or disprove a theory... there was one where they hoped to debunk the value of imprinting on foals, but the study basically was so poorly done that the methods used weren't even proper imprinting methods. I'm doing a bit of a rewrite to not draw conclusions beyond what is out there. Montanabw^(talk) 16:54, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Montanabw - what topic are you talking about here?DrChrissy ^(talk) 21:34, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

The lead mare stuff, mostly. Kruger's study got a lot of press, but it wasn't a terribly good study, it was a bunch of grad students following a herd of horses around for 15 days over two years. No predator pressures, no food pressures, no water routes, no following herds under truly "wild" conditions. As far as it went, even she had to acknowledge that the herd was more likely to follow the older, more dominant horses. The only real point she made is that horse herds aren't completely rigid in their hierarchy, which is not news to anyone who actually understands herd dynamics... the dominant horse may become less dominant with age, they may have a personality that isn't particularly bossy, horses form smaller social groups (they do make "friends") and so on. Her study did not "debunk" the "lead mare myth", it just noted situations where it was more fluid. Montanabw^(talk) 05:23, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure that anyone is claiming that the study "debunks" the lead mare idea. However, the study is evidence contrary to the hypothesis that a single female regularly leads the remainder of the herd to resources. When researching this, I was surprised at the lack of evidence for a lead mare, given that it is so strenuously argued by some. However, for the sake of a balanced argument, I have presented both sides. I genuinely feel that a more adamant editor would insist on qualification of the first sentence with something like "It is believed by some, that herds have a lead mare".DrChrissy ^(talk) 11:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Potential source material

In addition to references already in the article, here are some more to study.

• https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=jdPvX9yM0D8C&oi=fnd&pg=PP1&dq=%22lead+mare%22&ots=YGw0QrIxtP&sig=5IPIR3_StywZfIVks3KILJw_KDU#v=onepage&q=lead%20mare&f=false
• http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00222933.2015.1024778#.VdygtOmTxMJ
• http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00438241003672633#.VdygRemTxMI
• http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-25541-0_82
• https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=bo3co5c3HoMC&oi=fnd&pg=PA25&dq=%22lead+mare%22&ots=qr6Y_nvUi_&sig=HUUvJg0Cag4TGercmkd77StUTBI#v=onepage&q=lead%20mare&f=false

Comment on sources. This article though it is favorable to Kruger's research, describing it as "myth busting", also shows flaws in the study. First off, Kruger clearly has a goal of debunking a lot of the "natural horsemanship" stuff. While I personally agree with Kruger that a lot of that movement promotes utter bullshit and romanticized nonsense, her studies are not well-designed, and this is not her first published study (she also did one on "hooking in", for example) that clearly have a POV to push. 15 hours of observation of, basically, tame horses with no environmental pressure (this "feral" herd in Italy is a naturally-managed domesticated herd anywhere else, they are routinely rounded up, branded, etc... these are, at best, semi-feral animals) and a description of "herd departure" without an assessment of reason for the departure is, simply, a very questionable design. Studies of truly feral, free-roaming horses, such as those in the USA, Canada, Australia, etc., are far better study groups and the studies of the Przewalski's horses are also very valuable. To the extent that horses in full domestication have some of these behaviors, with alterations that fit their circumstances (for example, some domestic herds have a dominant gelding, an impossibility in the wild...), the Kruger study is interesting. But you can't take it any farther than to say that in one herd on lush European pastureland with no predator or resource pressures, there was less evidence of a clear, single leader than expected, still stands for the proposition that horses do prefer to follow an older, more dominant leader. Also, one must note that any horse could "initiate movement" if they spotted a predator, for example. If the rest of the herd just stood around and said "duh?" until the lead horse acted, they'd be eaten. ;-) Montanabw^(talk) 17:27, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

15 hours of observation This ist only to get the dominance hierarchy (each year again) before the studies were started (its written in one of the papers)- it is an (by jounals) accepted amount for that

without an assessment.. Did you ever try to find an assessment for horse behavior - sometimes it is easy - (f.e movement -> predator , water - more grass shadow and so on) often you can think about and guess but do you really know it and find an scientific explanation without comparing it to human behavior (what would i do in this case etc? ) which would not be scientific. Even in case of "more grass" its difficult without doing a further scientific research: Is it simply the amount of grass, the color, the humidity of the soil the humidity of the grass or simply to move to a more plain place So whats better do describe that there is a movement or guessing about why in most cases?

fyi The Italy semi feral heard is managed by the farmer in the following way: Water supply at two cisterns between June and November only if there is no rain. 1 time a year capturing most of the male foals and branding the female. Nothing else . No fences inside and around the area (25 square km); Predators Wolves: 30% of the remaining horses including foals until capture gets lost up to the age of three years by wolves.

lush European pastureland ... due animal welfare sometimes it happened in the past that mares must be killed instead of let them die of hunger [Pictures](click to enlarge) [Map]

Etron770 (talk) 12:27, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Kincaid reference Slap on the wrist for myself! In an edit[1] I introduced this source. I have now looked more closely at this document and it has no publisher or date (I have no idea why I indicated it was 2008 other than there are no references later than this date!). Because of this, the document should be considered as non-RS compliant and not used again. Sorry for my mistake!

References

DrChrissy ^(talk) 12:50, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Also this, Montanabw, but just not sure where it fits in: Horses can recognise human emotion, new study shows. —Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 11:16, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

There is a section "Horses and humans" which actually has no references whatsoever. It could go there. My own suggestion would be to have a section on "Cognition" and include it there.DrChrissy ^(talk) 13:29, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

That would be cool. Montanabw^(talk) 23:22, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

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one to five stallions.[17]

Feral and wild bands may range from two to 25 individuals, mostly mares and their offspring, with one to five stallions.[17]

The cited paper does not contain anything about 5 stallions in a harem . It contains that one stallion is at position 5 of the dominance hierarchy. Etron770 (talk) 07:27, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

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Leading Paragraph?

This is surely an appalling leading paragraph and not at all the good style we hope for on Wikipedia. The first paragraph should introduce and summarise the whole subject, not go straight into one aspect of it, poorly written. I know nothing of Horse behaviour, which is why I came here, but even I feel like trying to fix it. Yeah, I'm going to "Be Bold"- if you don't like it improve it :)

IceDragon64 (talk) 00:30, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to copy edit this article as a whole, including the first paragraph. I won't be making any content changes or changing/adding citations. -- Alkunzle (talk) 20:39, 14 September 2018 (UTC)