Talk:Horse theft

The Beginning

I started this article but it needs more citations and wiki-links.EECavazos 17:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Phony baloney . . .

Once again I am removing this obviously phony photo of an asserted "hanging" of a horse thief. Thank you. GeorgeLouis (talk) 16:37, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Your proof that it is "phony?" Can you cite to the original source or offer other verification? Montanabw^(talk) 19:38, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

The person who posted this phony photo is the one who has to do the proving. If you have ever seen a photo of a real lynching, you would know this is not the real McCoy. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 06:24, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

If the image was staged, then the caption can reflect that. The photo is genuine. Frankly, all I am hearing is raw opinions, not evidence. Montanabw^(talk) 07:49, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Good for you, but in the meantime I would appreciate your removing this photo, which only makes our encyclopedia look dumb. I don't intend to humor these now-dead cowhands with a 21st century edit war. Yours, in friendly banter, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 08:08, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I tried to remove this photo from our photo collection but found really no way to do so. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 08:10, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Indeed no reason to edit-war, but frankly, I have to admit I'd be more supportive of you if you wouldn't insult "cowhands." I am curious why you call it "phony." The figure does look a little bit like it could be a straw dummy or something, but I would be curious about your reasoning. I think the image is still useful to illustrate the concept that horse theft was one a very serious offense. Montanabw^(talk) 21:01, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I never thought "cowhand" is insulting. It is what they call themselves. As for whether this photo should illustrate this article, well, horse thievery in the Old West was indeed a capital offense, so a joke photo should not be illustrating this serious article. I would be willing to ask for a WP:Third opinion if you are open to that. Sincerely, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 04:42, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

It's tone. I didn't say the word "cowhand" was insulting, it was how you said it. But my point is that you are not providing me with any evidence that a reliable source verifies that this is a "joke photo." I just have you saying that it is. Why do you think so? I am asking this sincerely. Looks fairly real to me, though there is room for intrpretation. Have you located the original source? I went looking in some Oregon historical sources last night and could not find it... have you?

Yes, I have inquired at the Oregon State Library, and this is the response I received:

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In response to your recent Answerland Question (#581615)

Is this photo for real?

This photo looks like a group of cowboys having fun with a stuffed dummy, not a real lynching. Please look at the source on this page and let me know if this is an actual photo of a lynching. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Horse_thief_hanging.png

A librarian wrote,

Hello -

Your question has been referred to the Oregon State Library, in Salem, for follow up.

The 1900 volume of the Oregon Native Son is available online through a couple of different sources. I searched through the volumes that are available on the HathiTrust site: http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/100405288

The 1900 volume is also available through the Scholars Bank, provided by the Oregon State University Library: https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/handle/1957/11609

I have looked through these online editions, for 1900, and I did not find the photo that is in the Wikimedia Commons article on horse thief hangings. I used the search feature and searched on these words: lynching, lynch, hanging, hung and thief. However, by doing a page-by-page search you may locate the photo in this publication.

If you have additional questions or comments, please let us know. Thank you for using Answerland.

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I looked over the three volumes available from 1900, and there were no images of the kind we are talking about. The volume from May 1900 was not available. Yours, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 18:08, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

These are what real lynchings look like: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Duluth-lynching-postcard.jpg and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 18:19, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I had independently gone to those as well, with similar results; I cannot locate the image. I suppose one thing you could do is go over to commons and nominate it for deletion, if their gurus cannot locate an original, then we have a legitimate verifiability issue. Montanabw^(talk) 06:16, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• That said, a couple points:

1. A hanging and a lynching are not precisely identical - hangings were a fairly formal procedure, even when extrajudicial; lynchings went beyond hanging in their brutality. Here is a photo of an Old West-style hanging, {http://www.helenahistory.org/hanging_tree.htm This one] looks a little more like the photo in this article, except they tied the person's legs together
2. Also, apparently "pseudo hangings" did occur; I've read elsewhere that apparently they'd put a noose on someone and haul them up and down a couple times to get the point across without actually killing them: a different one. I wonder if that was what was going on here. Montanabw^(talk) 06:16, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Request for comment

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Seems to have achieved satisfactory compromise. --GRuban (talk) 18:06, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

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One editor has stated that the file [[File:Horse thief hanging.png]] should be deleted from the article Horse theft. Another editor has stated that it should not be deleted. 03:05, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

• Delete. The file is obviously that of a group of horsemen who have, as a joke, strung a dummy over a cross bar of the entrance to a corral. In the section just above I provide my reasons and the text of a letter from an Oregon State Library librarian demonstrating that the image probably does not come from the publication referenced on the image's page. There are four authors listed on the source page for the image, which is impossible. The original caption on the page here was "The hanging of a horse thief in Oregon, c.1900," at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horse_theft&oldid=616348765. The other editor changed the caption to "Dramatization of the hanging of a horse thief in Oregon, c.1900," which is attested nowhere. In any event, it is incumbent upon the person adding information to an article to show that said information is true, or at least there are WP:Reliable sources for believing it is true. Nothing of the sort has been shown here. For images of what real lynchings look like, I refer you here. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 03:21, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
• Delete. This sort of image is not what you should be adding in articles of Wikipedia, if it is not true, then it should not be here, therefore it should be deleted. IllogicMink (talk) 07:43, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
• Keep but tentative until researched: The image may or may not be a dummy, though I agree it does not appear to be a dead human (could also be someone who was hauled up and down a couple times as a threat- hence the kicking); I DO agree that one problem is that we cannot find the original source, and both BAAW and I have looked. Can we ping folks at WP:IMAGES or someplace to dig into this? My own view is that nailing it down will clarify the keep or delete question - even if a dramatization, the image could be kept with an appropriate caption, (i.e. "Cowboys circa 1900 dramatizing the fate of horse thieves by...") Montanabw^(talk) 04:19, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
• Keep for a while to encourage research: "Wikipedia's verifiability guidelines require all information to be citable to sources. When information is unsourced, and it is doubtful any sources are available for the information, it can be boldly removed." WP:USI. I have added a Citation Needed tag to the image to encourage research. OnlyInYourMind^(talk) 21:13, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Here is the image source https://books.google.com/books?id=N8AUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA520 The image on the previous page, 519, is captioned "ROPING THE HORSETHIEF." OnlyInYourMind^(talk) 22:29, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Good work by User:Montanabw! I can accept the proposed caption if others like it as well. ""Cowboys circa 1900 dramatizing the fate of a horse thief," with a reference to the source that Montana discovered. In the accompanying image, showing the man being trussed up, he appears to be pretty cooperative, and it seems the rope might have been tied around his chest, although it is hard to tell. Also, some of the text within the source could be added to the article, with a reference to the image.BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 04:35, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Works for me! Go ahead and change accordingly if you haven't already! Thanks so much, OnlyInYourMind! Montanabw^(talk) 15:22, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Happy to help! :-) OnlyInYourMind^(talk) 06:36, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

@BeenAroundAWhile:, I think that as the person who opened the RfC, you can close it if the solution is to your satisfaction. I'm happy. Montanabw^(talk) 15:24, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.