Talk:Horst Seehofer

Comment

I have removed information about his height, which is in my opinion completely irrelevant, even in Bavaria with its tradition of genetical superiority.

Family

No data about family. 2.210.43.153 (talk) 21:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Acting head of state

Please, anyone jumping to conclusions about his new, temporary status should review the discussion at Talk:Jens Böhrnsen from 2010. While in the matter of whether to call him "Acting head of state" or "Acting president" some disagreement is possible (though there is no legal basis for the term "Acting president"), it is absolutely wrong to claim that Seehofer has ceased to be President of the Bundesrat - only by holding the latter position is he now acting head of state, dischargingthe duties of the President. It might be true that he will not chair sessions of the Bundesrat during this interim but that doesn't make him any less the President of the body. Deposuit (talk) 13:16, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

As for supposed sources:

• The German says that Seehofer discharges the duties of the President, not that he becomes President. There's no such thing as an acting president.
• While the BBC source, uses the term "acting president", it is not completely reliable on the fine print of another country's constitution.

Most importantly: neither source validates your utterly false claim that Seehofer ceases to be President of the Bundesrat. If he ceased to be, he would not, could not be acting head of state. Untless he resigns or dies, he will be President of the Bundesrat until the end of October. Please desist from inserting false and nonsensical claims into this article. Deposuit (talk) 14:34, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

From a strictly constitutional point of view, there's no such thing like a "acting president" in Germany. If the office of the president is vacant, as it as now the case, the president of the Bundesrat temporarily becomes the highest office of the state. In that sense, Seehofer is de facto (albeit not de jure) the acting president. In any case, he remains the president of the Bundesrat, because holding that office is a precondition for "acting" as president of Germany. If he weren't president of Bundesrat anymore, the first vice president of the Bundesrat would have to act as president of the Bundesrat and as such as president of Germany. Meaning, you can't separate the two (= ex officio position). -HCM — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dthomsen8 (talk • contribs)

That strictly constitutional point of view is exactly the point - WP can afford to adhere to it.

However, just as strictly, the President of the Bundesrat never becomes the highest office - it always remains number 4 - the highest office remains the - now vacant - Bundespräsident. However, the former discharges the latter's duties, while retaining all his offices.

Since an ex officio position cannot be split, there should be no separate succession box or separate item in the infobox, just an addition to the Bundesrat-office.

I also wonder, why Catinga claimed that Seehofer was no longer President of the Bundesrat but kept the office of Ministerpräsident (in turn the basis for being Bundesratspräsident) untouched. Deposuit (talk) 15:40, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

"However, just as strictly, the President of the Bundesrat never becomes the highest office - it always remains number 4 -"

-> well, only in the order of precedence, not in a constitutional sense... since the order of precedence is not part of the constitution and more of a unwritten tradition. Consitutionally, the president of the Bundesrat could be regarded second as a result of his function as "deputy" to the president of Germany.

It wouldn't necessarily kill me if the article still refers to Seehofer as "acting president" since this is what he's *colloquially* referred to now. It's analogue to the whole thing with the "vice chancellor of Germany"... constitutionally, there's no such position, a member of the cabinet is merely designated "Deputy to the Chancellor" with the duty to fill in for the Chancellor if he/she happens to be on vacation or something. Then again, we might just as well change "President of the Federal Republic of Germany (acting)" to "Acting head of state of Germany". I don't really care. In any case, it is of course flat out wrong to claim that Seehofer is not president of the Bundesrat anymore. That's just incorrect. - HCM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.225.34.39 (talk) 16:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Re the first bit: if the order of precedence is simply customary, any order of precedence is simply customary. There is not "but constitutionally he is/could be regarded as second". However, I think that it is number 4 that is deputy to number 1 - and not number 2 or number 3 - is intentional.

It wouldn't KILL me either - WP articles should not have such power anyway - but it would be wrong. He might be colloquially called that but only in non-German sources. I never have heard him being called "Interimspräsident" in German. But your example involving the Vice-Chancellor is wrong: while that title is not included in the constitution, the position most certainly is.

"President of the Bundesrat and as such Acting head of state" is what Seehofer currently is. Deposuit (talk) 17:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree he is not "acting President" because he is not designated as such by German law. However, he is Germany's head of state at this time, which should not be understood as a title, but merely the generic description of his current role. Titles for heads of state, and how they are appointed, vary greatly around the world, but some person is always head of state (save in failed states). He should be referred to as acting head of state. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree 100% Wanna change it?Deposuit (talk) 17:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I see you already have and that I might have misunderstood parts of your posting.

The way it now stands is unacceptable, as it list the same office twice. Seehofer holds two state offices now: prime minister of Bavaria and President of the Bundesrat. His current status as acting head of state is a function of the latter. Accordingly, this should be identified as such by a note to his office as President of the Bundesrat, not the other way around.

Nobody claims that there is no head of state. But this function cannot be a separate item/box.

Finally, I think his Bavarian office should come first because it is the more important, the more permanent one. Deposuit (talk) 17:47, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The same office is not listed twice. Head of state is a separate office (in infobox terms), with entirely different predecessor, successor and term of office from that of the Bundesrat president (and most Bundesrat presidents never become heads of state). From the international point of view, him being head of state of Germany is more important than any other offices he holds. I think the offices should be listed in chronological order with the newest first, also, from the international point of view, his office in local government in Bavaria isn't more important than head of state of Germany. Josh Gorand (talk) 20:48, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter if his current status/office as head of state is a function of a different office provided for by internal German law, for the reason that Bundesrat presidents don't normally are heads of state, and because head of state is considered by itself to be a generic office irrespective of how the person is appointed. As I said above, "titles for heads of state, and how they are appointed, vary greatly around the world" (it has varied greatly even in modern German history). Therefore, head of state needs to have a separate item in the infobox (and also because the term, predecessor and successor are different from all the other offices). Josh Gorand (talk) 20:54, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Josh,

"head of state" or "acting head of state" is not an office, at least not under the German constitution. You can look up the offices that exist. Currently, the infobox has two items referring to the same office.

"head of state" is a role, as you said earlier, of most functioning states. Every constitution has different ways to determine how that role is filled.

Presidents of the Bundesrat normally are not (acting) heads of state, true. But until now, no Chancellor has ever been the situation to assume command of the military. If that situation arose, would we then add another box called "commander of the military" - the point is: the President of the Bundesrat under specific circumstances has specific extra roles.

And yes, Seehofer's state position is much more relevant, much more important as it actualy entails political power whereas even his presidency of the Bundesrat does not, not to speak of his filling in for a minimum of presidential duties for a month. Deposuit (talk) 23:54, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Head of state is an office, at least here at Wikipedia, and indeed, it's generically considered an office in itself by international custom. In any country article, we indicate who is head of state, and in the relevant biographies, we indicate in the infoboxes when they held the office, who their predecessors and successors were. Head of state is a clearly defined office in the international community and international law.

No, the infobox doesn't have two items referring to the same office. Seehofer is Prime Minister of Bavaria, but he holds two additional offices by virtue of his office as Prime Minister. He is ex officio President of the Bundesrat (as Prime Minister of Bavaria) and ex officio head of state of Germany (as President of the Bundesrat). The fact that these two offices are held in the capacity of the first office, doesn't make all three offices one office. They are separate offices, held for separate periods of time, with separate predecessors and successors. Hence, they need their own infobox items. The first two are only of domestic relevance, whereas the latter is the one representing Germany at the international level, in relation to foreign countries etc. Whether the person Germany has designated as head of state holds a particular title ("Emperor", "Reichspräsident", "Bundespräsident", "Führer", "acting head of state in his capacity as President of the Bundesrat" or something else), or how he was appointed, is no interest to anyone outside Germany, i.e. foreign governments, international organisations, new ambassadors etc. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:11, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

This simply is not true: Seehofer holds two offices of state: 1. Ministerpräsident of Bavaria, 2. Bundesratspräsident, an office to which he was elected based on the first office. One of the functions of the latter office is to fill in for the Bundespräsident when needed, in this case acting as head of state during the vancancy of the highest office.

You repeatedly seem to insist that Seehofer is now the head of state - there's no need for that as we all know that and agree on that. However, this is not a separate office. Seehofer should appear in lists giving current heads of state, should appear in lists of German heads of state (but not list of presidents or in succession boxes about presidents) but there's no separate office for that. Some nations have a kind of formal interim presidency - Germany hasn't! Just a temporary transfer of duties.

Finally, there's the precedent of Jens Böhrnsen, who has exactly the kind of format I suggest.

Deposuit (talk) 11:10, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Seehofer is now head of state of Germany. Head of state of Germany is an office in the sense of our infobox (and a generic office in all of the world), final stop. We have an article listing all heads of state regardless of their titles (including Seehofer). There is no Jens Böhrnsen "precedent". There was never any agreement on this on Jens Böhrnsen, on the contrary, the majority of editors wanted to include it. There is rather the overwhelming precedent of all other articles on heads of state which dictates that being head of state must be included in the infobox.

Head of state of Germany is a completely different office than President of the Bundesrat, in the exact same way as Prime Minister of Bavaria is not the same office as President of the Bundesrat (even if the latter is held in the first capacity). Seehofer holds 3 offices now. Josh Gorand (talk) 13:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Head of state is not an office. There are no three offices but two:

Sure, MP of Bavaria and President of the BR are distinct. Seehofer was separately elected into either of these positions. (Your "in capacity is wrong") He did not become President of the BR automatically - he was elected! He became acting head of state automatically, without doing anything.

As for Jens Böhrnsen: it stands as a precedent and from what I gather from the discussion, there was consensus with only you disagreeing.

And being "head of state" is included in the infobox - under the office that makes him acting head of state. Under your logic, there would have to be both "President of Germany" and "acting head of state" in Wulff's infobox. Deposuit (talk) 13:52, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Head of state is an office, a broad English term referring to a person holding some position (in this case the well defined position of head of state). Josh Gorand (talk) 14:07, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

No, he did not succeed Hannelore Kraft as head of state. Josh Gorand (talk) 13:38, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

No, he didn't. And nothing in the article claims that. He succeeded her in the actual office he holds. He suceeded NO ONe as acting head of state. Deposuit (talk) 13:52, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you make it look that way by combining two completely different offices into one infobox item, with Kraft as the predecessor when he actually succeeded Wulff as head of state. That's unencyclopedic. Josh Gorand (talk) 14:04, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

No, I don't. I am not "combining two completely different offices into one infobox item" because there is only one office involve, albeit one that temporarily has enhanced functions. Consider this from the perspective of the time when this vacancy is filled. The succesion in the presidency will be Köhler - Wulff - Whoever's Elected, while Seehofer's office as BR-president will have the additional information that from day X to day Y he also was acting head of state.

Head of state is not an office, it is a status, a function. Deposuit (talk) 14:56, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I think there is, at least somewhat, a flaw only looking at the constitutional. The definition should also be looked at. According to Acting (law), it can mean one of 3 things. The most relevant meanings in this case is that "the person is only occupying the position temporarily, to ensure continuity." So, calling him "acting president" isn't really wrong. Kingjeff (talk) 22:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Criteria for a separate item in the infobox

• Separate term of office
• Separate predecessor
• Separate successor

The whole point of the infobox is to show these three things. Head of state of Germany meets all three, and hence needs its own item. Josh Gorand (talk) 14:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

There is no separate office, hence there is no separate term of office, just an additional time during which Seehofer exercised wider duties. And there is no separate successor because Seehofer has neither a predecessor nor a successor as acting head of state.

He currently counts as head of state but he does not occupy an office in which he was preceded by Wulff.

Deposuit (talk) 15:00, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

PS. The head of state of Germany is the Bundespräsident, the President of Germany. The office is currently vacant. Seehofer is not Bundespräsident, he is a caretaker. Deposuit (talk) 15:09, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

So then I ask: Who is the head of state of Germany at this time? What you are saying contradict the mainstream position held by legal scholars. Every state has a head of state, Germany too. There is always continuity between the heads of state, they follow each other regardless of titles, methods of appointment and so forth. The official German position is that Seehofer is head of state, holding all the competencies of the office of President. Whether he holds the title Emperor, President, Führer or anything else is just plain irrelevant, as is the method of appointment. The method of appointment is a domestic issue of no relevance outside Germany. Head of state is a defined position (known as "office" in Wikipedia infobox terms) in the international community and from the legal point of view. "there is no separate successor because Seehofer has neither a predecessor nor a successor as acting head of state" -- that's just plain ridiculous OR and contradict every single reliable source that can be produced (we went through this question in a earlier debate, but I could easily find tons of RS confirming that Seehofer's predecessor as head of state is Wulff). Seehofer is even listed in the article on the office held by Wulff. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The relevant comparison is Sabine Bergmann-Pohl, the last head of state of East Germany (in her capacity as President of the People's Chamber). Head of state is a separate item in the infobox, as she succeeded Manfred Gerlach as head of state (who was head of state by holding a different office from the domestic point of view, Chairman of the Council of State), but Günther Maleuda as President of the People's Chamber, and because these two are different offices. I could easily find numerous other examples. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:31, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

You are misrepresenting my position and not for the first time. Is that intentional? Anyway, I will explain it to you one last time:

States have almost always a head of state (some republics in the past have not cared about such things - or can you tell me who was the French head of state in December 1793?) - they clarify in their constitution which office is considered head of state. In Germany, that's the Bundespräsident. The person occupying that office holds that position. If the office is vacant, the duties of that position are discharged by somebody else. But that doesn't create a separate office of head of state - two offices exist: one that is head of state and another that fills in during vacancies. Normally, the Bundespräsident is heaf of state, but during vacancies, the Bundesratspräsident acts as head of state, therefore he is acting head of state.

Your disregard the offices actually existing as "mere domestic" matters cannot stand as "offices held" in infoboxes and succession boxes are strictly concerned with these offices.

Before you shout "ridiculous" (and approach the level of personal attacks), you should read more carefully what I wrote: Seehofer will have "no successor as acting head of state", unless you suggest jumping from far removed caretaker to far removed caretaker. He will have a successor as head of state. But more correctly, the succesion (box) concerns itself with the succesion in the actually existing office. What I actually wrote contradict not a single source out there! The President page (as any WP page) is not an RS but anyway, I have no problem with what that page said when I last saw it. That the presidency is vacant and that Seehofer is acting head of state. He is such by virtue of being Bundesratspräsident at a time of presidential vancancy.

PS. Your tendency to things informal also shows in your casual reinserting of the term "leader" - call Seehofer what he is, the "chairman of his party" - sometimes these are the undisputed leaders, sometimes not.

Deposuit (talk) 16:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

This is not how it works. Seehofer is head of state. Seehofer succeeded Wulff as head of state. Final stop. Leader and chairman are synonymous terms. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:57, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

This question was discussed previously (in 2010) and the solution ("acting head of state" with separate infobox item) described as "the most compromised position possible". If you don't accept the compromise version which is in line with the practice in all other Wikipedia articles, I'm going to insist on what most RS and even the German Foreign Ministry say: Seehofer is acting President of Germany. The German Foreign Ministry also confirms that Seehofer succeeded Wulff in the office.[1]. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:42, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I have read up on that discussion and therefore your clouding the issue and misrepresenting the discussion doesn't work with me. Technically, you are correct: it has been desribed like this - BY YOU and nobody else. Are you saying that your making a claim (not coroborrated by the discussion) constitutes consensus or settles the dispute.

And you're even going backwards in now claiming that Seehofer is "acting President" - there's no such thing. Your source is not reliable (it says nonsensical things like the Bundesrat is a "upper house"), as it uses language very sloppily. Deposuit (talk) 16:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not impressed by your lies. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:52, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Horst Seehofer, acting President

The English Wikipedia is based on English language reliable, secondary sources. For example the New York Times, which states that Seehofer assumed "the role of acting president".[2] Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty states that Seehofer is "acting president"[3], as does the Boston Globe[4] and the BBC[5]. Even the German Foreign Ministry confirms that Seehofer replaced Wulff in the role of President.[6] A statement by the Federal Council confirms that Seehofer holds all the competencies of the President.[7] Süddeutsche Zeitung writes that Seehofer is head of state[8]. Josh Gorand (talk) 17:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, as you write yourself: Süddeutsche writes he is head of state. Not actimg. Not president. Just head of state, as that role, in the absence of a president, falls onto the office of the president of the bundestag. Which he was, before, and after. That an American newspaper translate that into terms appropropriate to the American constitution (acting president) is irrelevant. He was as much acting president as a regent is an acting king. --Caballito (talk) 18:36, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

You may want to read Acting president.-- Dewritech (talk) 19:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Because this gets "corrected" over and over again: Caballito is right. German constitutional law does not know the term Acting President (german: Geschäftsführender Präsident). The President of the Bundesrat (in this function and ex officio) deputises for the President and performs his or her duties, if the office of president has fallen vacant. In this case there is no (Acting) President of Germany at all! In this case the office of President of the Bundesrat becomes the highest german federal office and the office-holder is therefore acting head of state (with the same duties and powers as the president but without his title). This is the case, because he is no Vice President like US Vice President. If english or american newspapers have written something different, this is, because they have no experts for german law and political costums, as german newspapers have no real experts for american or british (sadly as it is) ;-) Alektor89 (talk) 23:41, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

New Deputy Ministerpresident

After the election in September 2013, the new Deputy Ministerpresident is Ms Ilse Aigner. . I changed it by the way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.53.200.74 (talk) 14:28, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

It seems very odd to refer to someone from one of the main political parties in Germany as "Right-wing". If Lafontaine is not "Left-wing" why is Seehofer "Right-wing"? That term should be reserved for NPD etc. 23.126.176.113 (talk) 23:05, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

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