Talk:House of Luxembourg

title of this article needs review

This is really the Limbourg (Limburg)dynasty of Luxembourg. The House of Luxembourg would be the original dynasty directly descended from Siegfried I. That was followed by the Namur dynasty (Ermesinde I) and only then the Limburg dynasty (Eermesinde II). Alternatively those three original dynasties could be listed under House of Luxembourg (plus all the relevant branches).

--Caranorn 16:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

And another note, the supposed Luxembourg family tree actually is a family tree of the (Hohen)Staufen and only shows the last few rulers of the Limbourg-Luxembourg dynasty. Unfortunatelly I have no time (I'm already busy trying to complete the list of Luxembourg dynasts on the Luxembourgish pages) to either extend this article or clarify which dynasty it concerns.--Caranorn 12:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. We are using the name Luxembourg to refer to German royal dynasties, but the term house of Luxembourg is I think more often used for a branch of the House of Ardenne. What's worse, our article on that family does not mention this branch at all. Ardennes-Verdun dynasty--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:55, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Restating what is said above, I guess.

In particular, Ogive of Luxebourg links are being redirected to this page, but it mentions nothing of her, her father, siblings, or her son. 08:02, 28 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Collision-Shift (talk • contribs)

Proposal. Articles names and moves

I will post also at Ardennes-Verdun dynasty. Anywhere else? I propose.

• We move/rename House of Luxembourg to more specific Limbourg-Luxembourg Dynasty, like other Holy Romen Empire dynasties. Spelling is based on local modern spelling preferences and avoiding confusions between different Limburg/Limbourgs. But potentially it could be "Limburg".
• We create House of Ardenne-Luxembourg as a sibling article to Ardennes-Verdun dynasty covering the other main branches of the House of Ardennes. The descendants of Count Sigefried etc.
• We move/rename Ardennes-Verdun dynasty to House of Ardenne-Verdun to be consistent. (Scholars tend not to use the "s" for some reason.)
• We create either a stub/dab page for people searching for House of Ardennes. For now the main articles will be the two main branches but this article can cover the first generations and anyone not in the main branches.
• We create a dab for people searching for House of Luxembourg, House of Luxemburg etc, given the options of the Limbourg-descended dynasty or the older Ardenne-Luxembourg family who they descend from.

Please note any concerns or tweaks needed to this plan. Otherwise I think it is clear enough to go ahead?

Citation: Parisse, ‘Généalogie de la Maison d'Ardenne’, La maison d'Ardenne Xe-XIe siècles. Actes des Journées Lotharingiennes, 24 - 26 oct. 1980, Centre Univ., Luxembourg, (1981) 9-41--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:07, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

UPDATE. Have done the move for this article, but I chose German spelling for the main article because I realized this particular article is for the German royal dynasty branch. Will create redirects for spelling variants.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:38, 5 August 2019 (UTC) Concerning redirects, the current use of Luxembourg dynasty and Luxembourg Dynasty goes to here and seem appropriate. Some of the others will need further checking.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:42, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster: I think this should be moved back to House of Luxembourg, which continues to redirect here anyway. The German royal dynasty is much more famous than any other and it is what people mean by "[House of] Luxembourg [dynasty]". The hatnote can take care of the ambiguity. The current title is unknown to scholarship. Srnec (talk) 03:10, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Indeed I never finished off the above idea of making a dab page, and your proposal could also work if the hatnote was done properly. I don't have a strong preference on how to finish things off. I suppose my original concern (it was some years ago) was to make sure we had a clear article about the descendants of Sigefrid (which is also certainly a topic known to scholarship, though under various names).--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:09, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Arms of the Duke of Limburg.svg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:26, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Descent of the Dukes of Luxemburg

Propose to update the page with the following: JMvanDijk (talk)

Coat of arms of Luxembourg (see also Armorial of Luxembourg and Limbourg (fr)

arms of Waleran III, Duke of Limburg

arms of the Counts of Grandpré and Counts of Loon

arms of Henry V, Count of Luxembourg, his father's arms of Limburg with addition of azure stripes leaving a barry of argent and azure.

The House of Luxemburg/Luxembourg stemmed from the House of Ardenne (or Ardennes, French Maison d'Ardenne) was an important medieval noble family from Lotharingia, known from at least the tenth century. They had several important branches, descended from several brothers:

• The House of Ardenne-Luxembourg, descended from Count Sigfried.
• The House of Ardenne-Verdun, with several Dukes of Lower Lotharingia, descended from Count Gozelin.
• The House of Ardenne-Bar, with several Dukes of Upper Lotharingia, descended from Frederick I, Duke of Upper Lorraine.

Cunigunda of France

Wigeric of Lotharingia

Adalbero I of Metz

Gozlin, Count of Bidgau

Frederick I, Duke of Upper Lorraine

Sigfried of Luxembourg

The First House of Luxemburg

The first instance of the house of Luxembourg, counts of Luxemburg, is outlined below.

When the male line died. Three houses descended from the women of the counts of Luxembourg, the Counts of Loon, the Counts of Grandpré, and the Dukes of Limburg. All three families had a place in relation to the succession of the House of Ardennes. Indeed, the Count of Grandpré was the next heir of Conrad II of Luxembourg, who was the last representative of the Ardennes dynasty. But, Emperor Frederick Barbarossa preferred that Luxembourg was held by a lord Germanic rather than French and attributed the county to Henry of Limburg-Arlon (see below), son of Conrad's aunt Ermesinde and Count Godfrey I of Namur. The Counts of Loon are also in position to claim the inheritance Luxembourg, albeit weaker position.

the First House (Ardenne-) Luxembourg simplified

Sigfried (c. 922 – † 998) (see above) Count of the Ardennes, ruler of "Lucilinburhuc" Henry I of Luxemburg Henry V, Duke of Bavaria,1004 (d. 1026) Frederick I (965 – † 1019) Count of Luxembourg and Salm Dietrich II bishop of Metz (1006-1047) Adalberon archbishop of Trier (1008-1046) Cunigunde Empress (c. 975–1040) Henry II, Holy Roman Emperor Henry VII of Bavaria, count of Luxemburg,1026 duke of Bavaria,1042 (died 16 October 1047) Frederick Duke of Lower Lorraine Count of Malmedy (c. 1003 – 18 May 1065) Giselbert I (c. 1007 – † 1059) count of Luxemburg Adalbero III of Luxembourg (c. 1010 – 13 November 1072) Bishop of Metz Thierry Hermann of Gleiburg Waleran, Count of Arlon and Limburg (see below the House of Limburg-Arlon) Jutta from her descends the house of Limburg-Arlon and the 2nd House of Luxemburg Conrad I (1040 † 1086) count of Luxemburg Hermann of Salm († 1088) count of Salm founder of the House of Salm Henry III († 1086) Count of Luxembourg William (1081 † 1131) Count of Luxembourg Matilda of Northeim Albert II, Count of Dagsburg Ermesinde (1075 † 1143) Godfrey I, Count of Namur Conrad II († 1136) Count of Luxembourg s.p. Liutgarde (1120 † 1170) Henri II (1125 † 1211) Hugh VII1 († 1137) Count of Dagsburg Mathilde1 Folmar V († 1145) Count of Metz Henri IV² (1112 † 1196) Count of Namur and of Luxembourg Counts of Grandpré three children died without issue two sons died without issue Agnès Louis I (1110 † 1171) Theobald I, Count of Bar Ermesinde (1186 † 1247) Waleran III, Duke of Limburg Counts of Loon three children Henry V (1216 † 1284) Count of Luxembourg

The county of Luxembourg thus went to to the eldest son of the 2nd marriage of Waleran with Ermesinde, deemed the heiress of Luxemburg.

Succession to the First House of Luxembourg
Cunigunda of Montjoie Waleran III Duke of Limburg Ermesinde Countess of Luxembourg Henry IV Duke of Limburg and Count of Berg Waleran Lord of Fauquemont Henry V Count of Luxembourg Gerard Count of Durbuy Adolphe IV Count of Berg Waleran IV Duke of Limburg Henry VI Count of Luxembourg Waleran I Lord of Ligny

House of Limburg–Arlon/the (Second) House of Luxemburg

Having succeeded to the county of Luxemburg, the younger branch of the House of Limburg-Arlon is the family that succeeded in getting one of its scions elected Holy Roman Emperor. From there descended the Kings of Bohemia, several other Emperors and a King of Hungary as shown below.

House of Limburg–Arlon/the House of Luxemburg

Waleran I († 1082) Count of Limburg Henry I (1059 † 1119) Count of Limburg Waleran II (1085 † 1139) Duke of Limburg Henry II (1111 † 1167) Duke of Limburg Henry III (1140 † 1221) Duke of Limburg Waleran III (1180 † 1226) Duke of Limburg Henry IV († 1247) Duke of Limburg and Count of Berg Waleran († 1242) Lord of Fauquemont Henry V (1217 † 1281) Count of Luxembourg Gerard († 1276) Count of Durbuy Adolf IV (1220 † 1259) Count of Berg Waleran IV († 1279) Duke of Limburg Henry VI (1250 † 1288) Count of Luxembourg Waleran I (1252 † 1288) Lord of Ligny Ermengarde († 1283) Reginald I Count of Guelders Henry VII (1275 † 1313) Holy Roman Emperor Waleran II (1275 † 1354) Lord of Ligny Adolf V († 1296) Count of Berg William I († 1308) Count of Berg Henry of Windeck († 1292) Adolf VI († 1348) Count of Berg John the Blind (1296 † 1346) King of Bohemia John I (1300 † 1364) Lord of Ligny Charles IV (1316 † 1378) Holy Roman Emperor King of Bohemia John Henry (1322 † 1372) Margrave of Moravia Wenceslaus I (1337 † 1383) Duke of Luxembourg Guy (1340 † 1371) Count of Ligny Count of Saint-Pol Wenceslaus IV (1361 † 1419) King of the Romans King of Bohemia Sigismund (1368 † 1437) Holy Roman Emperor King of Bohemia and Hungary John (1370 † 1396) Duke of Görlitz Jobst (1351 † 1411) King of the Romans Margrave of Moravia and Brandenburg Waleran III (1356 † 1415) Count of Ligny and of Saint-Pol John (1370 † 1397) Lord of Beauvoir Count of Brienne Albert II of Habsburg Elizabeth of Luxembourg (1409 † 1442) Elisabeth (1390 † 1453) Duchess of Luxembourg, sold duchy to the Dukes of Burgundy Peter (1390 † 1433) Count of Saint-Pol and Ligny m. Margaret of Baux John II (1392 † 1441) Count of Ligny Ladislaus the Posthumous (1440 † 1457) King of Hungary and Bohemia, Archduke of Austria and Elizabeth of Austria (1436 † 1505) Queen consort of Poland, Grand Duchess consort of Lithuania, from her descends the Kings of Bohemia and Hungary to 1918 Louis (1418 † 1475) Count of Saint-Pol and Ligny Thibaud († 1477) Lord of Fiennes, Count of Brienne, Bishop of Le Mans Jacqueline "Jacquetta" of Luxembourg (1415/1416 – 1472) 1m. John of Lancaster, 1st Duke of Bedford 2m. Richard Woodville, 1st Earl Rivers, one daughter was Peter II (c. 1440 † 1482) Count of Saint-Pol Anthony I (1450–1519) Count of Ligny from here descends the Dukes of Piney-Luxembourg in France Jacques († 1487) Lord of Fiennes and Gavre Elizabeth Woodville (c. 1437[1] – 1492) Queen consort of Edward IV of England from here descends the Houses of Tudor, Stuart, and the Royal Family of England

I am find these additions go rather far off topic and are not so clear in their intentions? What is the importance of Grandpré and Loon for example? And if we really wanted to show the earliest beginnings of counts of Luxembourg, and how they connect to this dynasty, are we doing it correctly and clearly?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:31, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Don't know how much clearer this can be. Feel free to clarify. Antecedents are important to those who are Luxemburgers (ask them, I travel there quite frequently). Grandpre and Loon had a claim to Luxemburg. If they had succeeded, history would have been very different. JMvanDijk (talk)

I noticed also that you made this page: House of Ardenne-Luxembourg. Perhaps a compromise could a that the chart of the first House of Luxembourg(-Ardenne) goes there. JMvanDijk (talk)

Yes, I think that the question of the links between earlier and later Luxembourg dynasties or "houses" is a subject relevant to several articles, and the approach you are taking might therefore help several articles. I am suggesting that in some places there is too much information, and in other places there some more explanation seems needed. For example, there is no mention in the article of Granpre and Loon making claims on Luxembourg.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:54, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Just updated the Luxembourg-Arlon table with some corrections and added some text to clarify. Put rest on Ardennes-Luxembourg article. JMvanDijk (talk)

References

Removed material

I'm removing some of the heraldry discussions and discussions about Loon and Grandpré and relatives in general. Apart from sourcing and notability I think that some of these topics are either for another article, or else they would need to be written up in some completely different way in order to show the relevance to this article. I think the main family tree should for example be a family tree of THIS family. One reason for posting this remark here is to make sure people realize there is material in the article history which might be useful elsewhere. Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:19, 6 July 2023 (UTC)