Talk:Humanity Declaration

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 8 April 2021 and 19 July 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Uraaka AW917.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 22:41, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 April 2020 and 2 August 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Uraaka AW917.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:02, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Western belief

Do Westerners think that Japanese people believed the Emperor was a deity just as some Americans still believe God created all life? --Nanshu 08:20, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The short answer would be "yes", and I'm restoring the content you deleted. Views of Ningen-sengen in Japan and the rest of the world vary greatly, this should be covered in the article. Jpatokal 23:15, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think this is very bad idea. For one thing, in wikipedia we are not teaching the westerns about God in Japan. For another thing, is this old version accurate at all? I don't mind to examine the speech in detail, but by no means it has to be done from the views of the West, whatever it is. -- Taku 03:28, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

Huh? Of course you have to account for Western views, because Japan was under occupation by the West, and the famous paragraph was forced onto the Emperor by the West! See Dower's Embracing Defeat (敗北を抱きしめて）, quite a famous book in Japan too) for lots of detail. Jpatokal 09:43, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Meaning of the word Kami

This article is about a speech forced on the Emperor by people ignorant of the culture and the language. It should at least expand on the various interpretations of the word Kami, as it can have as little meaning as `above` to as much as `almighty god ruler of heaven an earth`. I do not think the Japanese ever considered the emperor more than the leader and figurehead of his country. The speech was therefore never intended for the Japanese people who could not understand it any more than non-Japanese speakers. It was for western new agencies alone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.190.216.170 (talk) 11:38, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

popular Western view?

“the speech challenged the centuries-old claim that he and those before him were descendants of the sun goddess Amaterasu”: The rescript have no mention to Amaterasu. It only said that the ties between the emperor and the people was not based on the legend and the myth. Although the rescript flatly denied the divinity of the emperor as “false conception”, it did not actually deny the legend and myth as one of Japanese cultures and traditions. Besides, was there really a speech? I always thought it was a document delivered.

“convoluted and archaic court Japanese nearly incomprehensible to the average person”: As an average Japanese, I can understand the rescript perfectly. The wordings are not really convoluted and there are not too many archaic words. Besides, you can always find the meaning of archaic words if you consult a dictionary.

"the key phrase akitsumikami (現御神), usually glossed as "divinity" in English but literally "manifest kami", is unclear.:" Akitsumikami is a “living god” and I cannot think of any other interpretation.

“he implicitly reaffirmed it by asking the occupation authorities for permission to worship an ancestress and then worshipping the Sun Goddess”: Being a living god is one thing and worshiping the ancestral goddess is quite another. You cannot say that he reaffirmed his divinity because he performed the traditional acts of worship for his ancestors.

In summary, the "popular western view" described here seems so weird to me that I cannot believe it is really "popular". I doubt it is worth mentioning in the article. Dwy

I've tried to clarify the text a little. Jpatokal 01:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I've lived in Japan, and my understanding from talking to Japanese people is that the emperor is no longer regarded as a god by the Japanese. This article tries to imply that the accepted view in Japan (as opposed to the West) is that the emperor is still regarded as a god by the Japanese. I believe that this is quite misleading. Although there are no doubt some Japanese who still regard the emperor as a living god, they would be assigned by most Japanese to the right wing fringe. Why is this article trying to show otherwise?

Bathrobe (talk) 08:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the article claiming anything about what the Japanese think, the bone of contention is whether the Emperor himself considered it a renunciation of divinity or not. But if you have some good sources for popular opinion on the topic, go ahead and add them. Jpatokal (talk) 08:06, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Interpretations and Facts

This article is heavy on interpretation and light on facts. As a first-time reader of the piece, I haven't really learned anything other than a notion that some wikipedia editors are offended that the declaration happened at all. It should be about the declaration, what was said, why MacArthur wanted the declaration (according to the cited sources, it was drafted by Westerners), and why Hirohito chose his revisions to the final piece; all with appropriate citations. This article should not be a place to debate the relationship between royalty and deities in Japan. Ando228 (talk) 23:10, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Comparing the text to the cited word

Could the following sentence please be clarified?

However, the meaning of the exact contents — delivered in stilted, archaic court Japanese — has been the subject of much debate. In particular, instead of the common word arahitogami for "living god", the more unusual phrase 現御神 was used instead.

Clearly what is being discussed here is a word that appears in the declaration. But does this word appear in the passage quoted earlier? It appears to be in the Japanese:

朕ト爾等國民トノ間ノ紐帯ハ、終始相互ノ信頼ト敬愛トニ依リテ結バレ、單ナル神話ト傳説トニ依リテ生ゼルモノニ非ズ。天皇ヲ以テ現御神トシ、且日本國民ヲ以テ他ノ民族ニ優越セル民族ニシテ、延テ世界ヲ支配スベキ運命ヲ有ストノ架空ナル觀念ニ基クモノニモ非ズ。

but not in the English:

The ties between Us and Our people have always stood upon mutual trust and affection. They do not depend upon mere legends and myths. They are not predicated on the false conception that the Emperor is divine, and that the> Japanese people are superior to other races and fated to rule the world.

Not knowing Japanese, I cannot determine which word(s) in the English translation correspond to 現御神. The only thing I can think of is the word "divine", but in English that is an adjective and hardly synonymous with "living god". Could this somehow be clarified? I can see why you might not want to alter the official translation, but maybe you could change "the more unusual phrase 現御神 was used instead, as represented above by the word 'divine'," or something like that." — Lawrence King ^(talk) 00:39, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the official translation glosses "天皇ヲ以テ現御神" as "the Emperor is divine" , and the mismatch between the two is precisely the reason for the debate. Jpatokal (talk) 06:56, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Inclusion of dubious statements by mangaka as the final paragraph of the "Japanese view"

I have removed the following text from the article. My rationale was stated in my edit summary. If any portion of it is to be restored, consensus should be sought on the talk page. The majority of it appears to be misinterpreted content written by and then read by non-specialists.

Japanese manga artist Yoshinori Kobayashi said, "The reason why GHQ recommended the human declaration is because it misunderstood that the Japanese believe the emperor as an <absolute god>." In the late Meiji era, when American missionaries came to Japan, "God" was translated as "Shin" (神, しん) and Japanese people used the ancient "Kami" (カミ) as "God" (神) as well as China. Therefore, the mixture of "Kami" and "God" began around the Meiji era, and GHQ misunderstood that the Japanese believed the emperor to be "God" (absolute god) from this mixture, so he declared humanity to Emperor Showa. However, if I dare to say that, it is a humorous act that makes "the god of cartoons (manga)" Osamu Tezuka and "the god of management" Konosuke Matsushita make a "human declaration". In addition, the emperor used to say that he was "Akitsumikami (currently God)" but never a Western-style "God" (absolute god). In addition, the traditional concept of "Akitsumikami" for the emperor is physiologically as if Osamu Tezuka is called "God of Manga", Konosuke Matsushita is called "God of Management", soccer goalkeeper or baseball pitcher is called "Guardian God". It is similar to the traditional practice of Japanese people, who call extremely precious people "God" (神様), even if they are humans. In addition, it is difficult for Westerners who know only monotheism to understand this kind of feeling of Japanese people.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:24, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

References