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no knees
editCan you please clarify the "no knees" commentary in the morphology section? I don't believe this statement to be correct. All birds have a joint between the femur and the tibiotarsus. In fact, the link provided links to an article on bird feet and legs mentioning this as a common source of confusion, as the joint is often covered by skin or feathers. Please see the link below to a CT reconstruction of Archilochus colubris, where the femoral-tibiotarsal joint is clearly visible. The citations provided for the "no knees" commentary are popular articles and not rigorous enough to support the statement.
https://digimorph.org/specimens/Archilochus_colubris/ Gbwalth (talk) 18:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Birds do have knees, as shown in this image from the Bird feet and legs page, although the article states that "some species do not have patellas". A good summary source for the leg bones with a description of the hummingbird knee would help - do you have one? Zefr (talk) 19:53, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sadly, I'm having trouble finding a specific anatomical description of the femorotibial joint (joint between the femur and tibiotarsus, or knee) in trochilidae. Below are some references to support its existence.
- This paper is specifically on hummingbird myology. Though there is no description of the knee itself, several references are made to a knee, as well as some nice illustrations of the pelvic limb.
- https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/handle/10088/5185/SCtZ-0385-Lo_res.pdf?sequence=2
- This paper has a nice illustration of hummingbird skeletal elements, and the joint between the femur and the tibiotarsus (i.e. the knee) is shown clearly.
- https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-48324-y
- The Museum of Osteology in Oklahoma City has some really great skeletal mounts, some of which are mentioned in the below article. The article also has a micro-CT scan of the skeleton. Again, the femorotibial joint is shown clearly.
- https://svpow.com/category/stinkin-theropods/hummingbird/
- This book has some cool pictures of Paleogene trochilid fossils, with mentions of femurs and tibiotarsi - so these fossil birds must also have had knees.
- https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-540-89628-9
- As an aside, this paper has an excellent discussion of hummingbird skeletal anatomy, but sadly does not address the pelvic limbs.
- https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270471957_Introduction_to_the_Skeleton_of_Hummingbirds_Aves_Apodiformes_Trochilidae_in_Functional_and_Phylogenetic_Contexts
- To state that hummingbirds lack knees implies that they are different from all other birds, and there is no support for this. I respectfully submit that the statement should be taken down. Please let me know if I can assist with anything! Gbwalth (talk) 03:14, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- I also looked widely for an anatomical source specifying whether there is a knee... or not, with no success. This article has anatomical displays, one of a skeletal side view (2nd last figure, prepared by Stanlee Miller of Clemson University) clearly showing a "bent knee" with the femur and tibia at a 90o angle, confirming a hinge joint.
- As stated in the article and shown in Fig. 1 of this article, the legs (and knees) do not give a hummingbird much lift on takeoff or other mechanical advantage, except maybe for preening. Zefr (talk) 03:48, 24 September 2024 (UTC)