Talk:Hungarian nobility/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: SpartaN (talk · contribs) 16:17, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

I'll have time to review it later this week SpartaN (talk) 16:17, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

@SpartaN: did you have a chance to look at the article? Borsoka (talk) 04:13, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

@Borsoka: Looks like SpartaN hasn't edited in a bit, I'm happy to take this up for him if you'd prefer. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 04:15, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your proposal. I hope everything is all right with SpartaN. Borsoka (talk) 04:23, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

@Borsoka: I'm sorry i left you hanging like that. I'm just now getting back to wikipedia. Something happened irl that i'm still struggling with emotionally.

@Borsoka: Looking over the article I do have some concerns about whether it covers the entirety of its scope, even if it is otherwise very well written; if the article was History of the Hungarian nobility, it would easily pass GA, but I think it lacks a comprehensive discussion of culture and religion that should belong to the article of the nobility itself. There are some mentions throughout the article of these topics, but IMO there should be much more, probably given their own sections. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 16:46, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for starting the review. Sorry, I do not understand your above remarks. In my view, the article about Hungarian nobility is to be an article about the history of the Hungarian nobility, because the concept was changing from century to century. I always prefer a chronological approach instead of an approach based on subtopics when writing general articles about a topic. Culture, religion, etc. are covered in the present text. Borsoka (talk) 03:42, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

@Borsoka: I do, in retrospect, agree with you on the subject of culture, as it's hard to mention such over a 1000 year time frame, but perhaps more mention could be given to religion within the sections, speaking to the religious adherence of the time frame, if possible, along the lines of Most noblemen adhered to Lutheranism in the western regions of Royal Hungary, but Calvinism was the dominant religion in Transylvania and other regions. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:28, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

@Borsoka: I'm sorry I left you hanging like that. Something happened irl that I'm still struggling with. Also, apologies to you too Iazyges for thrusting this on you. I won't pick it back up because I might suddenly disappear again and don't want to leave you hanging a second time. SpartaN (talk) 04:03, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

@SpartaN: No problem, hope all is well, and a late Merry Christmas to you. @Borsoka: sorry for the wait, I will get round to this ASAP, and a Merry Christmas to you too. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 09:35, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

@SpartaN: No worries. I have also had many things to do in real life and I had to limit my presence in WP. @Iazyges: thank you for your offer. Happy New Year to both of you. Borsoka (talk) 00:59, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Criteria

GA Criteria
GA Criteria: 1 1.a Y 1.b Y 2 2.a Y 2.b Y 2.c Y 2.d Y 3 3.a Y 3.b Y 4 4.a Y 5 5.a Y 6 6.a Y 6.b Y

• No DAB links Y
• No dead links Y
• No missing citations Y

Prose Suggestions

Please note that almost all of these are suggestions, and can be implemented or ignored at your discretion. Any changes I deem necessary for the article to pass GA standards I will bold.

Lede

• Most aristocrats claimed a late 9th century Magyar leader for their ancestor suggest Most aristocrats claimed ancestry from a late 9th-century Magyar leader.

• Done.

• Ennoblement of whole groups of people was not unusual in the 17th century given that this goes against the grain of much of history, a bit larger of an explanation might be due here.

• Done.

Origins

• Masses of Magyars crossed the Carpathian Mountains after the Pechenegs invaded their lands in 894 or 895 suggest Masses of Magyars crossed the Carpathian Mountains after the Pechenegs invaded their lands in the Pontic steppe, in 894 or 895

• Done.

• Slovak historians write at least three Hungarian noble kindreds unless "kindreds" is more proper for some reason, suggest simply using "clans".

• Done.

• which was built on a foundation of stones in Borsod was tentatively identified as the local leader's abode suggest changing abode to household unless its directly from source.

• Done.

Development

• A royal official, the ispán, whose office was not hereditary, headed each county suggest A royal official, the ispán, who was chosen by [x] (presumably the king), headed each county.
• Alternative solution.
• The kings appointed their officials from among the members of about 110 aristocratic kindreds suggest changing kindreds to family

• Done (I preferred "clans" instead of "families".

• which contributed to the development of heavy cavalry suggest which contributed to the development of heavy cavalry in Hungary

• Done.

• did not have offspring and brothers believe offspring or brothers may be more appropriate here.

• Done.

Golden Bulls

• emphasizing that they were only to serve the king suggest emphasizing that they were loyal only to the king, if you feel this is appropriate,

• I would not change the verb, because in this context they wanted to emphasize that they were only the king's servants.

• and their arrest without a verdict was prohibited does this mean they couldn't be held indefinitely, without trial and verdict? If so, suggest and their arrest without a subsequent trial and verdict was prohibited

• I deleted the part, because its meaning is unclear. Borsoka (talk) 02:54, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Self-government and oligarchs

• and only about a dozen castles were erected on royal domains you may wish to change and to but or in comparison

• Done.

• Unlike a conditional noble, in theory a familiaris remained an independent landholder, only subject to the monarch suggest Unlike a conditional noble, a familiaris remained a de jure independent landholder, only subject to the monarch

• Done.

• which included a promise to respect the noblemen's liberties from the 1270s suggest which included a promise to respect the noblemen's liberties after the 1270s (might also wish to mention if this is because one king did so, or if there was an agreement laid out there that led to this, etc. (I'm presuming its related to Ladislaus)?

• Done. Borsoka (talk) 04:16, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Age of the Angevins

• He captured the oligarchs' castles, confused by the meaning here; did he militarily seize a number of them, allowing him a free hand, or else is this language symbolic of increasing control (obligatory or physical) over the castles by virtue of his increased power? If the former, suggest He seized a number of the oligarch' castles by force, allowing him greater control over them (assuming it wasn't every single castle), following what/when he returned to them. If the latter, suggest Bouyed by his increased power, he seized [x] castles or, if it's symbolic, He regained control of the oligarchs' castles

• Done.

• These "baronies", as Matteo Villani recorded it around 1350 seems like it here should be in.

• Alternative solution: it was written in about 1350.

• Her husband was also regarded as a nobleman – a noble by his wife – according to the local customs of certain counties. does this mean that in certain counties he would be "a noble by his wife", and in others he would not? If so, suggest According to the local customs of certain counties, her husband might also regarded as a nobleman – a noble by his wife. If it just means the arrangement of this varied by counties, suggest Her husband was also regarded as a nobleman – a noble by his wife – although the exact details varied according to the local customs of the counties.

• Done. Borsoka (talk) 04:17, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Emerging Estates

• He had to give away more than half of the 150 royal castles to his supporters before he could strengthen his authority in the early 15th century was the giving away a part of the arrangement (i.e. he agreed that could strengthen his power after he did so) or is this saying that he had to give them away, but then he strengthened his authority later? If the first, suggest explaining more of the arrangement, if the second, suggest When his position was weak, he was forced to give away more than half of the 150 royal castles to his supporters, although this abated when he later his authority in the early 15th century.

• Done.

• He founded a new chivalric order, the Order of the Dragon, in 1408 to award his most loyal supporters suggest either changing award to reward, or else He founded a new chivalric order, the Order of the Dragon, in 1408, and awarded membership to his most loyal supporters

• Done.

• The Diet obliged all landowners to equip one archer for 20 peasant plots on suggest The Diet obliged all landowners to equip one archer for every 20 peasant plots on

• Done.

• but in most cases they were represented by delegates.The noble delegates were almost always the familiares of the magnates. suggest but in most cases they were represented by delegates, who were almost always the familiares of the magnates.

• Done. Borsoka (talk) 04:17, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Birth of titled nobility and the Tripartitum

• A tenth of all lands in the kingdom was in the possession of about 55 wealthy noble families are these 55 families and 10% in addition to the 30 families and 25% aforementioned, or is this a difference in time? Explain further the situation in either case.
• Modified. Borsoka (talk) 04:18, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Tripartite Hungary

• Nobility could be purchased from the kings who were always in need of funds I'd change always to often, unless this is a quote, in which case suggest adding quote and source directly.

• Done. Borsoka (talk) 04:18, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Liberation and war of independence

• Always one member of the family administered estates in fideicommissum, but he was responsible for the proper boarding of his relatives suggest The family administered estates in fideicommissum were always held by one person, but he was responsible for the proper boarding of his relatives

• Done. Borsoka (talk) 02:03, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Cooperation, absolutism and reforms

• Prince Miklós Esterházy employed Joseph Haydn; Count János Fekete, a fierce protector of noble privileges, bombarded Voltaire with letters and dilettante poems; double semi-colon is not (technically) bad, but kind of awkward, suggest changing first semi-colon to a period. The "Prince Miklós Esterházy employed Joseph Haydn" part could also use some expansion to demonstrate why this information is important.

• Sorry, I do not understand your remarks about Haydn. Borsoka (talk) 02:03, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not sure the text explains why he is important, or what he did while employed. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 03:44, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

• Expanded. Borsoka (talk) 04:01, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

• The Diets voted the taxes and the recruits that Leopold's successor, Francis, demanded between 1792 and 1811 seems like this should be The Diets voted in favor of the taxes and the recruits that Leopold's successor, Francis, demanded between 1792 and 1811

• Done. Borsoka (talk) 02:03, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Austria-Hungary

• Half of the seats in municipal assemblies were preserved for the greatest taxpayers. this could use further expansion if possible; was it a ranked system, where the top ten taxpayers could have ten seats in a municipal assembly, or was the requirement that half the seats simply go to very wealthy, high tax-paying men? -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 03:43, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

• Sorry, I do not understand your above remark. I think the sentence is clear: always the greatest taxpayers held half of the seats in municipal assemblies, and half of the seats were held by the greatest taxpayers. Borsoka (talk) 04:03, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Revolutions and counter-revolution

• Horthy, who was not a crowned king, could not grant nobility it seems like the reason he couldn't grant nobility was because he wasn't king, suggest Horthy was never crowned king, and therefore could not grant nobility.

• Done. Borsoka (talk) 04:04, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

• @Borsoka: That is all of my suggestions, apologies again for taking so long. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 03:50, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

• Thank you for your thorough and comprehensive review, and also for your suggestions. Time should never push us. :) Borsoka (talk) 04:04, 22 February 2022 (UTC)