Talk:Hurricane Gordon/Archive 1

Archive 1

Retirement in 2006

I know this puts bad news on someone, but I do hope the name Gordon is retired in 2006...let's get it out of their misery, even if it does far less devastation than in 1994! CrazyC83 23:10, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Retire it commemoratively. The WMO need to take some legitimate heat for their idiocy. They need to redeem themselves.

E. Brown, Hurricane enthusiast - Squawk Box 18:20, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Removal of "Haiti's tragic hurricane history" from article

While Hurricane Gordon could certainly be included in the subject of Haiti's tragic hurricane history, I dont believe that it should be included in the Hurricane Gordon article as it does not directly relate to information on Hurricane Gordon. Perhaps this would be better noted on Haiti's Wikipedia page. I have updated the topic to more accurately reflect the devastation in Haiti that was caused by Hurricane Gordon, and removed the specific references to the other storms. (10/10/2005) Fumetsu

Agreed

E. Brown, Hurricane enthusiast - Squawk Box 22:38, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Beware of possible changes during the hurricane re-analysis with this storm

A number of meteorologists believe that the system that ejected out of the Caribbean into the southwest Atlantic and the subtropical cyclone that formed in the Florida Straits were two different systems; both are currently considered one system named Gordon. There was a brief time period where one could follow the two different low centers. Just an FYI, in case it is ever decided to split the track of Gordon into two separate tracks in the next decade during the hurricane re-analysis. Thegreatdr 17:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting. Yea, looking at satellite images, it looks like Gordon 1 dissipated near Cuba while Gordon 2 was developing. Time will tell, and that would be cool if that happened. I'm always for getting more storms in a season after the fact. Hurricanehink (talk) 20:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Based on my observations using the GIBBS imagry, it appears that Gordon was one storm. At one point north of Cuba, it does appear as though the system has two LLCCs. However, looking farther back, there doesn't seem to be any other systems active in the southwestern Atlantic until Gordon gets there. Once Gordon gets there, it seems to interact with a trough moving off the east coast of the United States. That trough shows up quite clearly in this reverse infrared image as that smaller black mass off the Carolinas north of Gordon's outer bands. Gordon had a broad circulation as it was and when it hit Cuba, weakened, and interated with that trough [1], the circulation became elongated from the northeast to the southwest [2]. This caused the storm to appear as though it had two centers. When the trough became less of an influence [3], Gordon's circulation consolidated [4]. That is my hypothesis, based on my analysis of the satellite imagry. -- §HurricaneERIC§ archive 22:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Better pic

I added a GIBBS image to replace the other, really close up one. I know, GIBBS isn't exactly the best, but at least you can see the whole storm and get an idea on where it's at. If you have a problem with it, just revert it. ;)→Cyclone1→ 19:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Pic

Where did that close-up, NASA pic go? That was the best one we had. -- §HurricaneERIC§ archive 00:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Uhh... I posted above saying where I took it off. It was waaaaaay too close, so I posted a new GIBBS image. Now, my pic has been replaced with a color image (which personally can't compare to either of the previous pics.) So, that's where it went. Feel free to put it back in the article. →Cyclone1→ 22:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hurricane Gordon (1994)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Yellow Evan (talk · contribs) 16:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

• "southwestern Caribbean on November 8 after two tropical waves enhanced convection around in area of disturbed weather." I'd change "in" to "an" since "around in" sounds weird. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Yea, I barely touched the lede, my bad. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Happens to me all the time don't worry. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane}
• "dissipated by the next day over South Carolina." no need for by. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Kk. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• A few of the sentences in the lead could be better. " When Gordon affected Jamaica, it caused $11.8 million in damage and four deaths." to " Upon affecting Jamaica, it was responsible $11.8 million in damage and four deaths." YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • That works. Originally that sentence was longer, but I changed it due to using similar wording later on. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "There were 1,122 deaths in the country, partially due to deforested hills, and damage was estimated at $50 million. There were five deaths in neighboring Dominican Republic. In Cuba, Gordon caused $100 million in damage, and 5,906 houses were damaged or destroyed. " you start back to back sentences with there, kinda weird IMO. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Changed. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "In Florida, the storm caused $400 million in damage, much of it agricultural, and there were eleven deaths, eight of them direct" infobox those not mention any indirect deaths. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane}
  • Added, good catch. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "on November 10 it intensified into Tropical Storm Gordon after reaching open waters. " comma after 10. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I disagree, not needed. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "The circulation of the cyclone was initially very broad, covering much of the western Caribbean Sea," wikilink "circulation" to atmospheric circulation. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • KK. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "From surface synoptic reports, the National Hurricane Center " wikilink NHC plz. Than you. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Done. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "and by November 14 " comma after 14. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane}
  • Ehh. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "Shortly thereafter i" comma before "it". YE ^{Pacific Hurricane}
  • KK. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "On November 19, the storm turned to the southwest and later to the west, and Gordon weakened into a tropical depression before striking Florida again near Cape Canaveral on November 20. " I'd break up this sentence; it is a little long IMO. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Done. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "n the mainland, two universities were also closed.[12]" which two?
  • Eh, is it that notable? They are included in the newspaper article, but I thought it was kinda trivial. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
    • I think so, universities I'd say are fairly important, there areas large as decent sized cities in some cases. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 02:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Alright, added. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:35, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "The high death toll from Gordon made it the deadliest hurricane since Hurricane David in 1979," mention it was the ATL. Also, just noticed the the EPAC had a near 3,00 dead storm during that time. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Good catch. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "In Upala in" comma before "in". YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • No, read the whole sentence. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "At Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, a station recorded 69 mph (111 km/h) sustained winds, with gusts to 120 mph (190 km/h) during a microburst; the winds were not representative of the storm, and Gordon's landfall intensity was estimated at around 46 mph (74 km/h).[1] " I'd squeeze a "however" in here somewhere. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Meh, it's pretty long as it is. I split it. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Yea, I was going to suggest that, but I did not want to give you too many comments. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 02:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

More at 22 UTC tonight. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

• "was halted after the engine failed, the anchor was ripped off, and the mainstay was torn.[44] " shouldn't there be a semicolon after "failed" not a comma. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 21:06, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • No, it's a combination of events. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "Aftermath and lack of retirement". Why is the words "lack of retirement" in the section header? YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 21:06, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • That's a pretty significant thing that didn't happen, given the death toll. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• How come we have a 1 sentence aftermath in the lead? YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 22:45, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • What do you mean? --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Why do we have a 1 sentence paragraph in the aftermath? YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 02:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
      • We don't. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:35, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• When is Gordon used again? YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 22:45, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • That's trivia. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Agreed, thought we include it for retired storms. 02:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• " In response, agencies through the United Nations donated $735,000," wording just does not seem right here, I'd change it to " In response, agencies donated $735,000 via the United Nations". YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 21:06, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • What's the diference? Via versus through? Via implies something different. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• "The World Meteorological Organization issued an official statement crediting Jamaica and Cuba's warning infrastructure for the low loss of life there from Gordon, and blaming Haiti's lack of such a system for the large number of deaths there.[49]" move this to the end of the paragraph. IMO just weird here, the next sentence is a good paragraph opener, just no this one. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 21:06, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • That works! --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• Add the FL canes list to the see also. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 21:06, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Sure. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• Refs 4-6 need first names. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 02:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Done. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:35, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• Ref 29 author should be consistent to the rest. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 02:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Done. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:35, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• M staff writer and get a real publisher for Ref 43. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane}
  • K. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:35, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• Ref 49 needs to be complete, make the dates consistent and add an accessdate. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 02:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Done. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:35, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Todo

Good article. More info should be merged into the haiti section from the impact section. Also, references are needed. Jdorje 21:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I dropped it to start class. I don't think it's quite organized enough yet. Hurricanehink 18:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

That's because our standards are going up! This was B-class when I first assessed it. But I don't disagree with Start-class. — jdorje (talk) 05:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

True, and it's always good when standards go up. Hurricanehink 00:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Way too much is needed for the article for this to be considered C-class: impact? preps? aftermath? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 06:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Preparations is the most glaring omission from this article. Once that is added, it should have enough of the correct structure for a C class article. An impact section already exists, even if it is not as long as some might like. Thegreatdr (talk) 18:01, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Preparations and aftermath, at the least, are needed for C-Class. Anything higher definitely needs a substantially expanded impact section. The MH looks good, though. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 18:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If someone is looking to expand upon the article information-wise, there are rainfall totals listed on a few HPC rainfall pages related to the system. I just uploaded a more current version of the rainfall graphic to commons. Thegreatdr (talk) 18:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Todo again

More everything!. Storm05 18:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Link --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:52, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Hurricane Gordon/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

By consensus within the talk page, the article needs a preparation and an aftermath section before it can reach C or B class. An expanded lead would help out as well. Thegreatdr (talk) 18:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 18:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 18:31, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 30 October 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus for a move. I might suggest making Hurricane Gordon redirect to this page, and add a hatnote to direct readers to the other storms listed at Tropical Storm Gordon. (non-admin closure) Bradv 21:59, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

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Hurricane Gordon (1994) → Hurricane Gordon – Obviously the primary topic. Jdcomix (talk) 14:23, 30 October 2016 (UTC), Relisting. Jdcomix (talk) 14:45, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose malformed request, that is a dab page. And no not obvious that one Hurricane on that list is automatically more significant than all the others combined. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:07, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

  So the only hurricane named Gordon that killed over 50 people isn't the obvious primary topic? Maybe you should look at this. Jdcomix (talk) 13:23, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

• Support per nomination. Analogous to the deadly Tropical Storm Allison which is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of Tropical Storm Allison (disambiguation). —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 22:09, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support. Clearly the primary topic because of its impact. If that changes in the future, we can revisit it then. Calidum ¤ 20:29, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose: I don't think this is the primary topic. This article gets slightly more views than other articles. Fuortu (talk) 12:05, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support as WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. It already gets more page views than the other articles combined,[5] and was the most significant in terms of significance. There's an element of recentism in the prominence of the 2000s storms.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:10, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. There are some curious spikes in pageviews on a couple of days this year, but I think the numbers remain relatively even over time. Usually the primary topic in these situations is the one that caused the name to get retired (as in the case of the aforementioned Tropical Storm Allison), but there is no such candidate here. Hurricane Gordon (1994) does contain a section speculating on the lack of such a retirement despite the number of fatalities, but it suggests that the only reason it was so devastating was because Haiti lacked the appropriate notification infrastructure. Either way, I don't think there's enough evidence to support changing the status quo. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 08:12, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support per nomination. --219.79.96.41 (talk) 12:01, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose given Gordon 06's severe impact on Europe, I don't think we can call this, safely and surely, the primary topic. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:33, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support. Most page views, far and away the most casualties and dollar value damage, and also, as Cuchullain points out, the "most significant in terms of significance". What more can one ask of a PTOPIC?  — Amakuru (talk) 21:30, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. Pageviews are a terribly biased method that should not be used for decision making. The problem is the name has been used for multiple storms in multiple regions. People from each region should not be expected to be aware of storms in other regions. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:52, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose: per Tropical Storm Gordon in particular there being four Hurricane Gordons. Ebonelm (talk) 12:21, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 8 February 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) TonyBallioni (talk) 02:11, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

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Hurricane Gordon (1994) → Hurricane Gordon – It may be the primary topic. Gordon in 1994 caused more than 1,100 deaths and the damage is near $600 million. 219.79.250.146 (talk) 00:53, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose The ones in 2000 and 2006 are also important.—CycloneIsaac (Talk) 01:14, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per arguments presented in the previous discussion. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:36, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose – people in the British Isles and the Caribbean/North America may have a completely different idea of which Gordon is being referred to. ~ KN2731 {talk} 12:59, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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It's about time...

Alright, so this has been bothering me for a while, and I'm sorry, but I just had to bring this up. If Hurricane Gert and Hurricane Karl are primary topics, then why isn't Gordon? Like Gert and Karl, whose reasoning for primary topics were that they were the most significant storms of their name, this Gordon is the most significant storm of its name (yes, there is Gordon 2006, but it was not even a tropical cyclone when it struck Europe, and its impacts were far less significant). Additionally, Gordon has its own meteorological history page, and is the only non-primary topic to have so due to its interesting meteorological history (which is another reason why it could be moved). It's been nearly twelve years, and despite the fact that its by far the most significant Gordon, it still has the year attached. It might finally be time to take off the year. Cooper 14:40, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

@Cyclonebiskit: @Jasper Deng: @Jason Rees: @MarioProtIV: What do you all think?

Have a look at the two Requested Moves above for why it hasn't been moved yet, the main argument seems to be about Gordon's impact on Europe.Jason Rees (talk) 23:01, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Which I understand, but it seems that Gordon's impact on Europe is far less significant than that on Haiti (Gordon was extratropical by the time it reached Europe anyways) Cooper 23:35, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

I am personally open to it being moved but you will need to go through another requested move. However, the fact that it was extratropical means nothing especially these days, as the names are still used and can be retired because of their impacts.Jason Rees (talk) 23:54, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, that's true now that I look at it. For example Sandy, which wasn't tropical during its New Jersey landfall. Will probably wait a while to do another move request, as I feel I've done too many. Cooper 02:23, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Gordon 06 is significant on its own though to readers in Europe. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 01:22, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 13 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus exists per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC to move the page to Hurricane Gordon. Noah^Talk 19:27, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

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• Hurricane Gordon (1994) → Hurricane Gordon

The 1994 Hurricane Gordon is clearly the primary topic. It did significantly more damage and killed more people than all of the other storms named "Gordon" in the North Atlantic, including every other Gordon that made it to hurricane status. The death toll of 1,122 is also significantly higher that what we see from most storms in the Atlantic hurricane basin in contemporary times. The pageviews for the 1994 storm shows that its article usually receives significantly more traffic than those of the other hurricanes with the same name. Sure, a couple of the other Gordons in the North Atlantic were also pretty significant for the areas they impacted (specifically, the 2006 and the 2018 storms), but none of the other storms come anywhere close to this storm in terms of overall significance. Also, the vast majority of mentions on "Hurricane Gordon" that I've seen in the media refer to the 1994 storm. Whenever I see an article referring to a "Hurricane Gordon" that referenced it as a strong candidate for retirement (without the year mentioned), it was always referring to the 1994 storm. Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:CONCISE, any storm that is clearly the primary topic should get the main title, without the year. The actual retirement status is irrelevant. While most of the retired storms are the respective primary topics, some of them clearly aren't. As such, I propose moving this article to "Hurricane Gordon." LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 20:58, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

• Strongly Support – Per my arguments above, and also the recent move of Typhoon Jebi (2018) to Typhoon Jebi. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 20:58, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support Per L&D2000's argument above, seems reasonable enough.🌀CycloneFootball71🏈 |sandbox 03:30, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support – rationale is straightforward, no qualms here. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 03:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• Neutral leaning oppose – 2006’s incarnation was also significant in Europe. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 04:05, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• Strong Support The 1994 hurricane killed between a thousand to eighteen hundred and fifty. Please move the article title just Hurricane Gordon, “1994” excluded from the title of the article. Angela Kate Maureen (talk) 18:32, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• Comment - While looking at the primary topic for Hurricane Gordon we have to bear in mind that the name Gordon was retired because of what was considered to be a hurricane in the South Pacific at the time.Jason Rees (talk) 19:44, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support : far more damage than the other four Hurricane Gordons in lives and economy. You would think they would retire names after serious damage was done from named storms such as Hurricane Mitch where the name was retired and has not been used since. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 18:58, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support, until/unless Gordon next year is a Hurricane that threatens land. Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 19:17, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support per my !vote in 2016  — Amakuru (talk) 19:23, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support. Gordon 2006 is more notable as a windstorm than as a hurricane, and it better known as Windstorm Gordon than Hurricane Gordon. Destroyer (Alternate account) 19:32, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
• Extreme Support. As per Destroyeraa, 2006 Gordon is a notable windstorm, more than a notable tropical cyclome, as 1994 Gordon was super deadly and notable vs 2006, 2000, 2012 and 2018 Gordon. CyclonicStormYutu (talk) 14:40, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
• Extreme Support: The storm was very deadly unlike other hurricanes named Gordon (2000, 2006, and 2012), unless 2024's Gordon is more damaging or deadly, or any other future Gordon's in the Atlantic are more deadly or damaging, this article can be "Hurricane Gordon". - HurricaneKappa (talk) 14:54, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.