Talk:Hurricane Lee (2023)

Primary topic

There has been two Hurricane Lees and only one has an article, was a category five, and received comments for quick intensification. Is there any reason this isn't the primary topic? ✶Mitch199811✶ 23:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

It hasn’t caused any other notable impacts besides the strength, that’s why. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 03:59, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I think we should be questioning why there’s an article at all. It’s just hysteria. This one may do something bad but it may not. And it won’t be anything like some of the bigger ones that weren’t here till after they made impact. 107.77.203.110 (talk) 21:59, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Your appeal to WP:OTHERSTUFF does not a convincing argument make. Given that preparations for and land-area impacts from Lee have begun in some regions, and given that Lee very rapidly intensified into a Category 5 hurricane, and has an interesting meteorological history in general, I'd say it passes WP:GNG and merits a stand-alone article. And, depending on what happens over the course of the next 3–5 days, may even merit having the disambiguator (2023) removed from the title. Drdpw (talk) 22:40, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes but I just think Wikipedia needs to be careful with just posting whatever’s on the news. There is more hype about non-historical storms nowadays. 107.77.203.110 (talk) 23:22, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The article is here to stay. WP:GNG does not care about whether you think this is "hysteria" (which it isn't).--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:43, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Adding onto Jasper's comment, we (mostly) do not care how sensational a topic is if it covered by everyone from your local news station, CNN, and the Gaurdian. While some of those might not be the most reliable and other sources preferred for some claims, they do establish the storm was a thing people cared about. ✶Mitch199811✶ 01:56, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

As there are only two H Lees, I feel like this one is sufficiently notable to claim the primary topic for Hurricane Lee. However, considering all Lees, this one is yet quite insignificant.

On a side note: I feel like it is a bit off that the only Typhoon Lee listed on the disambiguation page has a year attached. Should we removed the year for it too? ✶Mitch199811✶ 00:42, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Ordinarily I would say yes, but in this case Typhoon Lee is a BLP subject. --Dylan620 (he/him · talk · edits) 02:29, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Would Typhoon Lee the person invalidate Hurricane Lee 2023 from becoming the primary topic? ✶Mitch199811✶ 02:47, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

For Hurricane Lee I would say no, though Typhoon Lee the person having an article does necessitate the year qualifier for Typhoon Lee (1981). --Dylan620 (he/him · talk · edits) 23:26, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Does anyone have good resources for information on peak power outages?

One of the biggest impacts of this storm was power outages, and I can't seem to locate source worthy information about power outages for the United States that give exact numbers on peak outages during the storm. For example, sources like the Weather Channel will say outages peaked at under 100K in Maine and I've found an image from poweroutage.us that seems to show 95,279 outages in Maine at some point, but I unfortunately wasn't available to archive it on the site when it happened. ~~ Raskuly (talk) 19:40, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I found and have added figures to the article. Cheers. Drdpw (talk) 20:20, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Indirect incidents

The death of a teenager in Florida and the capsizing of the boat in NJ should be declared indirectly related to Lee. In both cases the hurricane was many hundred miles, if not a thousand, from the events and not a direct cause: the rip current is a secondary effect and the wave in NJ a local event. A direct cause is when the rain and wind of the hurricane is involved in the death: damaging structures, rain and storm surge flooding, mud and land slides, capsizing in the storm, etc... Pierre cb (talk) 21:14, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@Pierre cb: Actually, they are direct deaths. This is straight from NHC (footnote 8 on page 12) on how deaths are classified:

"Deaths occurring as a direct result of the forces of the tropical cyclone are referred to as “direct” deaths. These would include those persons who drowned in storm surge, rough seas, rip currents, and freshwater floods. Direct deaths also include casualties resulting from lightning and wind-related events (e.g., collapsing structures). Deaths occurring from such factors as heart attacks, house fires, electrocutions from downed power lines, vehicle accidents on wet roads, etc., are considered "indirect” deaths."

So for sure, the death in Florida (drowning in rip current) is a direct death. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:19, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

And the car accident can be considered a direct fatality as it was more than simply a traffic accident on a wet road, Lee's winds pushed a tree down upon a car. Drdpw (talk) 21:25, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Is/Was

@Hrjdfn0-20-81, can you explain why you changed was to is in the lead? ✶Mitch199811✶ 22:56, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

It is because the storm is still active, and it won't dissipate until September 23rd, Dissipating means that the storm disappears. Hrjdfn0-20-81 (talk) 23:11, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a source to back up your claim? I have one saying its remnants are to impact the Isles, though remnants could still be active. I'll look into it but for know I stand that Lee has dissipated. ✶Mitch199811✶ 23:13, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Well, Even though there is no Source for It, Lee is still Active until September 23rd. Hrjdfn0-20-81 (talk) 23:20, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

That is not how Wikipedia works. And by the way, here is my article: [1]. ✶Mitch199811✶ 23:21, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Hurricane Lee started breaking down on September 19th and will be completed on September 23rd. Hrjdfn0-20-81 (talk) 23:23, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Will be – no, Wikipedia does not predict the future. We should be using the date that Lee disappeared from OPC analysis; that would be September 19. You don't get to make up your own story of Lee's evolution.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

You have no source to back up that claim unlike me, you utterly fail to understand wp:V. Can you even explain your reasoning for this? ✶Mitch199811✶ 23:26, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Mention @Drdpw to see his opinion. ✶Mitch199811✶ 23:27, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't fail, It is just not on the News. Hrjdfn0-20-81 (talk) 23:29, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

We should be using the date that Lee will disappear from OPC analysis; that would be September 23, Even though Wikipedia doesn't predict the Future. Hrjdfn0-20-81 (talk) 23:35, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

No, the low is already gone from OPC analysis, and you cannot at all say it will be gone on the 23rd. You cannot just ignore Wikipedia policies by saying "Even though".--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:38, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

The use of past tense in the opening sentence is accurate and appropriate, as Lee was a tropical cyclone and is no more. There is a sentence in that opening paragraph stating that the extratropical low that once was Lee remains active in the North Atlantic (which should be removed if indeed it is no longer accurate). Nothing more needs to be said. Drdpw (talk) 23:48, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

It does indeed seem inaccurate now so I've removed it.--Jasper Deng (talk) 00:05, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

I would like to interject here, Lee's post tropical remnants are indeed still active. DWD are still tracking the low by name near the UK. The OPC and UKMET have continuously tracked the system since it departed the coast of Atlantic Canada. There are a handful of news articles also attributing Lee to stormy weather in the UK, such as this New York Times Article. Supportstorm (talk) 00:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

The low near Ireland is not labeled as Ex-Lee in the OPC Loop. Drdpw (talk) 02:13, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

You were the one who started the edit war.

Hurricane Lee hasn't Dissipated Yet. Hrjdfn0-20-81 (talk) 23:30, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

The News Thought Lee was going dissipate on September 19th, But the News Was Wrong, It is still active and Won't Dissipate until September 23rd. Hrjdfn0-20-81 (talk) 23:37, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

How do you settle an edit war. Hrjdfn0-20-81 (talk) 23:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

You discuss, and not edit until a consensus is reached. You've already been reported to WP:ANEW because you refused to do so. My warning on your talk page explained this pretty clearly, so it is obvious that you simply didn't read it–not acceptable behavior.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I discussed it, and I have merged the two edits, to end the war. Hrjdfn0-20-81 (talk) 23:44, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Stop editing, end of story. You may resume once we agree on a solution, which we have not agreed to any sort of compromise and your proposed one probably violates wp:MOS. ✶Mitch199811✶ 23:46, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I decided to merge the edits, in order to stop the edit war. Hrjdfn0-20-81 (talk) 23:48, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

How do you settle the edit war. Hrjdfn0-20-81 (talk) 23:49, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Nope, @Hrjdfn0-20-81: stop means stop. Not "merge the edits". Stop. Each additional revert you make is accumulating another revert to your report at WP:ANEW and increases the likelihood that you are going to be blocked from editing.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:51, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't want to be blocked from editing. Hrjdfn0-20-81 (talk) 23:52, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Then stop reinserting your reverted text, and work with other editors to discern consensus wording. Drdpw (talk) 23:54, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

That's why I stopped and please add the merged edit, if you don't, please tell an admin to edit. Hrjdfn0-20-81 (talk) 23:55, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

The "merged" edit still doesn't have consensus in favor of it. Please just stop.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:56, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Im pretty sure Jasper Deng is an admin and he has opened up an ANI report. If you want to plea to an admin message there and dont delete it. ✶Mitch199811✶ 23:57, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but even if I were I could not act as one in this situation due to my involvement. ANEW is not the same as ANI, by the way.--Jasper Deng (talk) 00:13, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I just really wanted to run home resistance is futile and I probably went to far. I also probably should have escalated sooner and not been played by the account. ✶Mitch199811✶ 00:21, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Then please cooperate with us when we tell you to stop editing the article and work to achieve consensus. At this point, though, you have accumulated more than three times the amount of reverts allowed in WP:3RR so it might be too late. In the future please listen instead of ignoring what others say.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:55, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Jasper Deng: he was indeffed as a sock puppet so he won’t be responding any further here. Does that resolve this dispute then? Noah, AA^Talk 00:28, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

It does, but the block happened while I wrote that comment.—Jasper Deng (talk) 02:23, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 22 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 15:20, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

---

Hurricane Lee (2023) → Hurricane Lee – The only other Hurricane Lee was a category 3, that did not impact land, and lacks an article. ✶Mitch199811✶ 15:18, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Support Although we have had a more damaging Lee in 2011, that Lee never became a hurricane. Using Agatha as a precedent, that name has an article for its 2010 self (Tropical Storm Agatha) and an article for its 2022 self (Hurricane Agatha), where they both do not have the years listed. Since Hurricane Lee (2017) was starkly less notable than 2023's Lee, I am in support of moving this article. VantaWiki (talk) 00:27, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose because there is not a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The damage of Lee '23 is relatively minor and no evidence of an actual primary topic has been established. The only thing at play here seems to be WP:RECENTISM. I'd argue that other title is also improper because other hurricanes named Agatha did cause damage and at least one had multi-millions in damage.

Noah, AA^Talk 13:26, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose as the impact of Lee '23 was relatively minor; it certainly was not "a storm to remember". Drdpw (talk) 17:42, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Impact was very minor and it's only notable for how rapidly it intensified. Unless it is retired (which I heavily doubt will happen) I don't think it's noteworthy enough

trooncel (talk) 22:37, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose as stated with the others above. Vandmaner 97 (talk) 23:52, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose – Although Lee peaked as a powerful Category 5 storm, it didn’t have significant impacts, and like Franklin, it peaked as a powerful major hurricane but did not hit land at that strength. Hurricane Lee’s impact was probably even less significant than Hurricane Lorenzo (another Category 5 storm) of 2019 and that was not retired, so likelihood is that Lee won’t be retired either and it certainly wasn’t a historic storm to remember (unlike Idalia). The title should stay as is in my opinion. VehicleandWeatherEnthusiast2022 (talk) 00:41, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Neutral and@Mitch199811 which Colin do you mean? 69.211.218.207 (talk) 18:17, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't mind the heading 69.211.218.207 (talk) 18:17, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

IP editor, I mentioned the AFD for 2022 Colin under Philippe's deletion discussion. ✶Mitch199811✶ 18:46, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose This Lee has nearly nothing notable about it besides it's rapid intensification, besides, damages were probably most likely minimal when the 2011 Lee has much more significant impacts. If anything, that should be moved. Insendieum ALT (talk) 19:46, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Wait but leaning oppose for now If the storm name is retired, we can bring this conversation back up, but until then, the year doesn't need to be removed. ChessEric 15:14, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Other than its rapid intensification, Hurricane Lee is not as notable enough to deserve a move with its damages being likely minimal to Bermuda and Atlantic Canada. If this were to cause significant damage, then a move is necessary. tai (he/him) (talk) 15:30, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.