Talk:Hylton Castle/GA1

GA Review

General

Hi there. Overall, the article looks fantastic. Great sources, detailed information and great illustrations. My main issues with the page are the choppy prose (mostly due to the overuse of the passive voice and errant commas) and the number of pictures (16). Besides the awkward phrasing, the article's authors tend to make the castle the subject of each sentence, which results in the unnecessary use of the passive voice. The following sentence from the lead illustrates both points:

"After another period of being unoccupied, it was bought, in 1862, by a local ship builder, who demolished the wings and gutted the interior of the main building."

The sentence can be reworked to remove the awkward appositive and make the "shipbuilder" the subject of the sentence as follows: "A local shipbuilder bought the unoccupied property in 1862. The new owner demolished the castle's two wings and gutted the interior of the main building." There are certainly times when the using the passive voice is warranted (like right then) but prose often flows better in the active voice.

•  Done (after review)

Just to make clear, there are other areas of run-on sentences and awkward prose. I typically do not comment on each and every instance in a GAN review since it's silly to comment when you can just fix them instead. I will go back and try to CE parts of the prose after my main review. It may also be prudent to enlist the help of another copy editor to help rework the text.

As for the pictures, I know we're supposed to avoid galleries, but you may want to invoke WP:IGNORE and re-add a separate picture section. Reason being is that the pictures are lovely but they really do crowd the main text. Galleries don't make sense on main topic pages, since pictures can often be moved to dedicated sub-pages; however, since this is a rather detailed topic on a architectural subject, it makes sense to include a photo gallery. I'd also ask another editor's opinion on this as well.

•  Done (after review) Craigy (talk) 23:46, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Finally, since there are many architectural terms that are unfamiliar to most readers, I would say that each term should be wikilinked at least every section (if not every paragraph) as opposed to just the first instance in the text.

I think all of them are already linked. Craigy (talk) 21:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Any specific issues with the article I will mention below as I continue my review of the content. Best, epicAdam (talk) 14:28, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Lead

• "a local ship builder" name?

•  Done Craigy (talk) 07:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

• "These shields depict those belonging to local gentry" what does "those" refer to?

•  Done (after review) Fixed Craigy (talk) 23:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

• "the castle is owned by English Heritage" you may want to say what "English Heritage" is for non-UK users

•  Done Craigy (talk) 07:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

History

• The subsections may not be necessary, as demarcations between centuries is often unnecessary unless it helps with the organization of the article.

•  Done Craigy (talk) 07:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

• First sentence: "The Hylton family had been settled..." the way the sentence is written makes it sound as if the family settled there after they donated a pyx to a monastery. definitely needs to be clarified

•  Done Craigy (talk) 07:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

• Second paragraph: Make clear that a "gatehouse" is a type of small castle at the first instance of the word because otherwise it makes it sound as if the "gatehouse" and the "castle" are two separate structures.

 Done (after review) Craigy (talk) 21:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• "inventory of 1448" what's an "inventory"? Just like a household inventory or are they medieval tax records/census information, etc?

•  Done Craigy (talk) 07:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

• "Few alterations were made to the castle until the gatehouse featured in another inventory taken in 1559 as the "Tower", when floors and galleries were inserted to subdivide the great hall.[11][12]" awkward. rephrase.

 Done (after review) Craigy (talk) 21:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• "John Hylton, de jure 15th Baron Hylton." what happened to Barons 13 and 14? And why are they all "de jure"?

The 13th baron is the one accused of killing the Cauld Lad (which I've mentioned in the "Hauntings" section; nothing significant is mentioned of the 14th baron in the sources I have. Why they're de jure is mentioned in Baron Hylton and I think the reasoning would look awkward in this article as well. Craigy (talk) 21:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• "(died 1712, the second son of Henry Hylton, de jure 16th Baron Hylton)" try to incorporate into text as opposed to parenthesis

 Done (after review) Craigy (talk) 21:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• "Above the doorway was a coat of arms, believed to be the one created to commemorate the marriage between John Hylton and his wife, Dorothy Musgrave, now located above the doorway to The Golden Lion Inn at South Hylton, on the opposite side of the River Wear." awkward

•  Done Has now been split into two, less complex sentences: "Above the doorway was a coat of arms, believed to be the one created to commemorate the marriage between John Hylton and his wife, Dorothy Musgrave. It is now located above the doorway to The Golden Lion Inn at South Hylton, on the opposite side of the River Wear." Nev1 (talk) 16:15, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

• "buy the castle for £30,550" helpful to convert into current pounds

•  Done Craigy (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

• "Garrett probably designed the Gothic porch installed in the west entrance and the Gothic screen and single-storey, bow-fronted rooms installed to close off the east entrance, as he also worked for Lady Bowes on Gibside Banqueting House." awkward

 Done (after review) Craigy (talk) 21:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• "census taken the following year" the entire phrase need not be linked

•  Done Slight copy edit so the whole phrase is no longer linked. Nev1 (talk) 16:20, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

• "After Colonel Brigg's death in 1900, the castle passed into the hands of the Wearmouth Coal Company about 1908, and from there to the National Coal Board." Why would it have gone to a coal company? Was it used by the coal company as anything?

None of the sources I have access to say why it went to a coal company. I imagine it was because Castletown Colliery was built nearby and the Sunderland Corperation dumped the castle on them to look after, but I'm not sure. Craigy (talk) 21:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• "However, de Hilton was not to neglect his annual contribution of 24 sheaves of oats for every draught ox he owned, to the nearby monastery at Monkwearmouth and was required to attend the mother church of St Peters for the feasts of the Nativity, Easter, Whitsuntide and Saints Peter and Paul.[28]" What? How does this relate to the castle?

Comment: I believe it's relevant as it relates to how Romanus was allowed to keep a chaplain, on the proviso he carried out the above, so should stay in the article. Craigy (talk) 20:29, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Exterior

• Again, the two subsection headers may not be necessary.

•  Done (after review) Craigy (talk) 23:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

• Since the building has changed so much, don't just use words like "originally" or simply refer to events in the past. If features of the building are no longer present, please provide dates as to when they were.

Where I've used 'originally', it's because the sources don't mention which period the features are from so I couldn't add those in. Craigy (talk) 21:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Interior layout

• Again, determine if the subsection headers are truly necessary.

•  Done (after review) Craigy (talk) 23:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

• Like above, if anything mentioned describes the building as it was in the past, provide dates as to when. It may be helpful to describe the building as it stands today first and then mention anything that used to be after that, instead of splitting the section into different floors.

Heraldry

• "Why they are there has not been proven, but they are believed to show the political alliances of the early Hyltons, as the banner of the king, and the arms of nobles and knights of Northumberland and the County Palatine of Durham are shown." Source needed.

 Done (after review) Craigy (talk) 21:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• I fixed the forced column formatting.
• <ref name="Emery107" /> seems to be broken and is preventing the text below from appearing

•  Done Fixed Nev1 (talk) 18:10, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Present

• Awkward heading name. Better, "Present status" ?

•  Done Craigy (talk) 07:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

• "International Reunion[s] of Hylton Families" why is this italicized in the article?

•  Done Craigy (talk) 07:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

• "The castle is said to be haunted by the spirit of the Cauld Lad of Hylton.[41][42][43]" This is interesting. This story should be expanded, since there are evidently sources that provide information about the boy and his supposed ghost.
  • There is a seperate article devoted just to the Cauld Lad of Hylton - do you still want more on him here?-- Seahamlass 16:00, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment: I don't think anymore about the Cauld Lad should be added to the article. Although a mention should be given (which has been), the article should concentrate on the castle's history and not some folklore/legend associated with it. Craigy (talk) 20:29, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Say at the very list who the Cauld Lad of Hylton was and why his ghost would be inhabiting the castle for those who are completely unfamiliar with the story. -epicAdam (talk) 16:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

So, at present, I do not believe the article is ready for GA status, but is very close. After a thorough copy edit this article should be ready. I will place on one-week hold to give the editors time to make necessary changes. Best, epicAdam (talk) 16:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Per a conversation with the article's nominating editor, GA review on Hylton Castle will be suspended until the editor has the time to adequately revise the article. As such, I am closing the GA nomination process. -epicAdam (talk) 06:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)