Talk:IHH (Turkish NGO)/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Shouldn't the Gaza Flotilla be mentioned somewhere in this article?

Given that's why many people are likely to be reading it at the moment, it seems odd that the Gaza Flotilla isn't mentioned. It would be useful to make clear exactly what the link between IHH and the flotilla is. Robofish (talk) 14:20, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I suggest something like this: "IHH was one of the organizers of the Gaza flotilla, an aid flotilla of six ships carrying 663 activists from 37 nations intended to break through the blockade of Gaza and deliver humanitarian supplies. The ships were boarded and seized by Israeli naval forces on May 31, 2010, resulting in at least 10 deaths and prompting international reaction. International reactions to the Gaza flotilla raid —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.173.41 (talk) 18:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC) PS: I think I may have added this. I thought the page was locked, but maybe not?

If so we shouldadd that Israel and other sources they were the instigators of the violence on theHate Flotilla.Unicorn76 (talk) 11:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

IPT report

In this link http://www.investigativeproject.org/1998/ihhs-deep-longstanding-terror-ties, there is a report on the connections of the IHH to terrorist activities. I think that currently the fact that IHH is involved in terrorism is sublimated in the article. There are additional resources of course (some of them already mentioned in the conversation page) MorningTwilight (talk) 18:05, 30 September 2010 (UTC).

The more terrorists there are, the more books Steven Emerson will sell... ;-)   Cs32en Talk to me  18:16, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus, page not moved  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 21:44, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

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IHH (Turkish NGO) → İHH (Turkish NGO) — Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:47, 7 September 2010 (UTC) per Turkish spelling of a Turkish charity Kavas (talk) 12:43, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose based on the usage at the organizations English web site. They only use IHH when providing the information in English. They only appear to use İHH in sentences written in Turkish. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
• Comment But, the English name is The Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief, then IHH would not be the abbreviation of the English term. They are doing something wrong. Kavas (talk) 14:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Turkish newspapers published in English uses İHH: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-211989-100-ihh-website-downed-before-israeli-attack-on-aid-convoy.html, http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-212070-ihh-chief-tells-of-violence-chaos-on-international-aid-ship.html, http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkey-sets-up-its-own-inquiry-into-israeli-raid-2010-08-12, http://www.tdn.com.tr/n.php?n=israel-finally-releases-turkish-activist-2010-05-18 Kavas (talk) 14:56, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. Personally I don't care – redirects are cheap – but I see no compelling reason to deviate from established policy. Our policy (not just a guideline) WP:COMMONNAME states: "Articles are normally titled using the name which is most commonly used to refer to the subject of the article in English-language reliable sources." Wrong or not, the spelling "IHH" with a dotless "I" is far more common in English-language reliable sources. Hürriyet Daily News also uses "IHH": [1][2][3]. And the fact that the organization itself uses IHH in English-language texts – on their website, as noted by Vegaswikian, and also for instance here – appears rather compelling to me.  --Lambiam 10:35, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
• Comment That number 17 link uses the name İHH. Can you please examine the links you post? Kavas (talk) 01:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose Not common usage in English-language reliable sources. Also, using non-English letters may make the organization appear unduly exotic to English readers.  Cs32en Talk to me  22:46, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support Does your arguments make sense? The media in English uses Jelena Jankovic, Ana Ivanovic Recep Tayyip Erdogan, but the articles on Wikipedia has Serbian and Turkish names: Jelena Janković, Ana Ivanović, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. The name is İHH, İnsan Hak ve Hürriyetleri, it's not an English name, it's a Turkish name. http://www.anaivanovic.com/ uses the name Ana Ivanovic, then should Ana Ivanović page be moved to Ana Ivanovic? Please, is avoiding "unduly exotic letters to English readers" a Wikipedia policy? If there was such a policy, the page of Ana Ivanović would have the name: Ana Ivanovic. This is not so. Kavas (talk) 01:25, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support. I think we don't have clear rules or precedence for use with or without diacritics within an article in such a case, but for titles it's well established that if the common English name is simply a proper name without the diacritics, then the article name is the proper name with the diacritics. An example for this from WP:ENGLISH is Tomás Ó Fiaich. For Irish Gaelic this is explained in Orthography. The distinction between İ/i and I/ı doesn't matter to most English-speakers, and it doesn't matter much to me (although I understand it and can hear it and only keep forgetting which is which). But it obviously matters to Turkish speakers, many of whom are also using this encyclopedia. Hans Adler 08:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

I think it is an uncontroversial move. It should be moved to the correct Turkish spelling, İHH (Turkish NGO). An admin can move it without a discussion as no one wrote his/her objection to it. Kavas (talk) 13:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Confusion again

The article has the hatnote:

Not to be confused with the outlawed German association Internationale Humanitäre Hilfsorganisation e.V..

The Dutch branch of the German IHH is not the same organization as this Turkish NGO. If the Dutch government places the IHH Netherlands on their list of terrorist organizations, like the German government did before with IHH Germany, that material should be added to the article Internationale Humanitäre Hilfsorganisation e.V., and not here.  --Lambiam 07:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Based on the sources I've seen, I don't think that's true. While IHH e.V. (Germany) is a separate organization with the same initials and arguably a shared history with the IHH, the sources speak of "IHH Netherlands" as simply the local part of IHH, that part which can be banned by the Dutch government. Have you seen sources indicating otherwise? Jalapenos do exist (talk) 07:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Given that the organizations involved explicitly contravene what you think, you'll need to either make your case here that they can all be tarred with the same brush, or (if you think it'll fly) create a separate article to try to tie them all together, since that appears to be your goal. You can't just transfer the bad reputations of the Dutch and German organizations to the Turkish group without consensus based on an ironclad grounding in sources.  – OhioStandard (talk) 12:45, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Turkish IHH announced that they don't have any connection with German or Dutch IHH on 03/03/2009. ( http://www.ihh.org.tr/13760/en/ ). If you say that they have a tie, you should show some evidence... Lamelif 17:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

They do not say in the link that they are separate from the group outlawed in the Netherlands; merely that there are groups in Europe sharing their initials with whom they have no connection. In any case, uninvolved secondary sources obviously trump sources from the group itself. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 17:03, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

The Netherlands-based Internationale Humanitaire Hulporganisatie Nederland has no connections or ties with the IHH Humanitarian Relief Foundation which is based in Turkey. http://www.ihh.org.tr/hollanda-menseili--ihh--kurumu-hakkinda-aciklama/en/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.7.37.61 (talk) 12:02, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Jalapenos do exist, I think what you say here "They do not say in the link that they are separate from the group outlawed in the Netherlands; merely that there are groups in Europe sharing their initials with whom they have no connection" I think these two things are just the same... Yes, there are groups in Europe sharing their initials with whom they have no connection, and Netherlands IHH is one of them. Neth. IHH can well be a humanitarian aid group with many different, maybe not so good purposes. Their being outlawed shows this, too. This organization has nothing to do with Turkish NGO IHH. Beatrice.rfb (talk) 12:37, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 3

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IHH (Turkish NGO) → İHH (Turkish NGO) per established policy of Wikipedia on spelling of non-English names Kavas (talk) 17:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Support See similar cases: Jelena Janković, Petra Kvitová, Martina Sáblíková, Agnieszka Radwańska, and Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. Those names are written as Jelena Jankovic, Petra_Kvitová, and Recep Tayyip Erdogan in almost every English source, but Wikipedia uses original spelling of them in article names. The name considered here is İHH, İnsan Hak ve Hürriyetleri, it's not an English name, it's a Turkish name. Note that "exotic letters" are allowed on Wikipedia, as Jelena Janković, Petra_Kvitová, Martina_Sáblíková, Agnieszka Radwańska pages prove it. Wikipedia only uses English names when they're different than original names, an incorrect spelling of a Turkish name in the case of İHH isn't an English name. Using an incorrect English spelling by the person/organization in their websites isn't a valid argument for oppose as Agnieszka Radwańska is written with "ń" in Wikipedia but her official webpage uses "n".Kavas (talk) 17:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Initial comment It's not vanity styling as we know it. If the name was written in full (instead of an acronym), I would undoubtedly support moving the name to contain its full diacritic set for encyclopaedic correctness. As it stands, and it looks a little weird with the "I" had a dot on it, I am leaning towards supporting this move per RTÉ, although it's not a primary namespace. -- Ohc ^¡digame!_{¿que pasa?} 23:24, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

A short list of names of the convicted terrorists involved with the Gaza flotilla, IHH, on the Mavi Marmara

1) Erdinç Tekir – IHH operative wounded aboard the Mavi Marmara, was involved in the violent 1996 terrorist attack on the Russian ferry Avrasya to bargain for the release of Chechen terrorists from Russian prisons . He was convicted & sentenced to eight years in prison, but served only 3 years.

2) Raed Salah- Leader of the northern branch of the Islamic Movement in Israel, previously convicted by Israeli court for raising money for Hamas

3) Hilarion Capucci -Syrian convicted by an Israeli court of smuggling arms to the Palestine Liberation Army and sentenced to 12 years in prison.

4) Hassan Aynsey (28), a member of a Turkish charity association, regularly transfers funds to the Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorist group.

5)Hussein Orush, from the Turkish IHH organization, intended to assist al-Qaeda activists into the Strip via Turkey.

6) Ahmed Omemun (51) from Morocco, who also has French citizenship, is a Hamas member.

7) Amin Abu-Rashid, 43, chief fundraiser of Hamas in Western Europe

8) Yasser Muhammed Sabag, Syrian intel officer working with Iran and others according to Serbian news agency FOCUS (He was an active member of Abu Nidal terrorist organization)

By refusing to list these convicted criminals and current terrorists, the Wikipedia page is showing a clear bias.

This list is not complete because many of the names were never released to the public.

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/article/18040

http://blog.camera.org/archives/2013/10/archbishop_gets_award_for_armi.html

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/176279#.UtVFIPabr8A — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.217.205.143 (talk) 14:24, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

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