Talk:Ichiriki Chaya

Notes on name

A note on the name: in Japanese, the name categorical is not “Ichiriki Ochaya” – it is instead “Ichiriki Chaya” (no “O-”), or (less often) “Ichiriki-tei”.

Compare the Google hits (inc. Google books):

• 一力茶屋 (Ichi-riki Cha-ya) 112,000 (1,480 books)
• 一力亭 (Ichi-riki-tei) 42,000 (305 books)

versus:

• 一力お茶屋 (Ichi-riki O-cha-ya) 291 (0 books)
• 一力御茶屋 (Ichi-riki O-cha-ya) 7 (0 books)

Thus, when giving the actual name (Japanese name, with romanization), one should give 一力茶屋 “Ichiriki Chaya” and 一力亭 “Ichiriki-tei”.

As for the English name…

In English, “Ichiriki Ochaya”, “Ichiriki Chaya”, and “Ichiriki-tei”/“Ichirikitei” are all found (in about that order, but roughly comparable); I suspect that “Ichiriki Ochaya” is used in Memoirs of a Geisha (popular book by Arthur Golden) hence relative popularity in English, while “Ichirikitei” is certainly used by Mineko Iwasaki (geisha on which book is based) in her reply, and seems to be used more often in formal and academic works. Using “Ochaya” is due to the general term ochaya (geisha tea house) – while this is used as a stand-alone term, the “o-” is not used in compounds (certainly not this compound, as demonstrated above).

Given this, I think it best to use the common name “Ichiriki Chaya” (most common in Japanese, common in English), also note the more formal “Ichiriki-tei”, and consider “Ichiriki Ochaya” an error or over-anglicization; I have done so as of this edit. Do this sound good?

—Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 14:58, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and regarding use of “the” – to my eye, “the Ichiriki” looks ok (if a bit grand), as does “Ichiriki Chaya”, but *“the Ichiriki Chaya” looks bad, as does *“the *Ichiriki Ochaya”, due to “ochaya” being the general (foreign) term for these houses, while “Ichiriki Chaya” is a name. This is presumably why some authors write “the Ichiriki Ochaya”, meaning “the ochaya called ‘Ichiriki’”, but, as explained above, that seems a poor choice of name.

—Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 15:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Just checked – the formal name appears to be 一力亭 (Ichiriki-tei), given that there’s a parking across the street that reads 「一力亭専用駐車場」 (Ichirikitei Senyō Chūshajō, “Ichirikitei Exclusive-use Parking-lot”). However, as 一力茶屋 (Ichiriki Chaya) seems rather more common, I’d suggest leaving it as that. (The name actually has an amusing history, discussed in the Japanese reference, which I’ve written up as of this edit.)

—Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 12:21, 23 March 2012 (UTC)