Talk:Igneri language

Splitting

There is a redirect for "Igneri language" which brings users to the "Island Carib language" page, however, this redirect needs to be deleted and replaced with this "Igneri language" page, as the two languages are not the same. As stated in the into paragraph of the Igneri language page, Igneri is an erlier form of Island Carib, and the two should not be used interchangeably.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacr88 (talk • contribs)

Problem with the article

There's a problem with this article, that hopefully Jacr88 and Vrac can help resolve.

• First, as the article notes, many linguists use the terms "Island Carib" and "Igneri" interchangeably; it's now accepted that the language spoken by the Island Caribs is a development of the earlier language of the Igneri, which was extinct before the historical period. No source is given in the lead for the statement that "the Igneri language is actually an earlier, more Arawakan-pure form of Island Carib". It's possible that some linguists make this distinction, but there's no citation.
• In the "History" section, the description appears to be based on the simplified account in the encyclopedia The Peoples of the Caribbean, but the latter part of the paragraph doesn't follow the source very closely. And at any rate, it varies substantially what Irving Rouse says in The Tainos that there was (if anything) only a small-scale invasion by Caribs; while all islanders adopted the "Carib" identity, they continued speaking basically Igneri. The men additionally spoke a Cariban pidgin, but this article's account of how it developed doesn't seem to match any of the cited sources. Notably, the pidgin is distinct from the "Island Carib language" and is only attested from the 17th century.
• Finally, under "Difference between Igneri and Island Carib", Rouse on p. 40 does not say Igneri developed into Island Carib with the introduction of Carib vocabulary (that may have happened, but Rouse actually uses Igneri/Island Carib interchangeably). The material on "creolization" and the percentages doesn't appear on p. 62 in my edition, and I can't find it anywhere else in the book.

Unless we can get some clarity - ie, sources indicating that many linguists who distinguish between the Igneri and Island Carib languages, and why they do - I don't really see the need to discuss these topics in separate articles. Island Carib language already makes it clear that the language was an evolution from the existing language of the islands.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:57, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Not being an expert on this matter I can only explain how I came to be involved: I accepted the article through AFC. A prior reviewer had left a comment asking what the difference between the two languages was, to which Jacr88 responded with the section of the article describing the difference. I checked that a couple of sources [1] do make a distinction between them, at which point I assumed the article would merit it's own page and accepted. Vrac (talk) 19:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Vrac. It's definitely the case that there would have been some level of difference between "early Igneri" and the language spoken by the Island Caribs in the historical period. However, I haven't found many sources that have much to say on that, since Carib identity was already ascendant before the historical period. The source you cited is actually using "Igneri" for what this article calls "Island Carib"; the book mentions "pre-Cariban Igneri" as the form of the language before the Caribs arrived. There's some good information here that needs to be kept in one article or the other, but I'm not seeing that this distinction is common.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:36, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Ok, as it's been nearly two months without further comment, I'm going to re-merge this article with Island Carib language per my concerns above. I did some further looking and I haven't been able to find any that make the distinction (or that have much to say about pre-Cariban Igneri.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:56, 4 February 2015 (UTC)