Talk:Im Yoon-ah/Archive 1
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 | This is an archive of past discussions about Im Yoon-ah. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Roommates
Does anyone have a source for who she rooms with? It's been debated between Yuri and Sooyoung/Taeyeon. Because almost all of the edits in the past month have dealt with this very fact, I removed it for the time being until someone can actually prove it either way.
Help? :P SKS (talk) 20:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
In episode 170 of Star Golden Bell it is stated that she rooms with Sooyoung/Taeyeon. Hope this is helpful. Jakjawagon (talk) 23:19, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
My bad, that was the old dorm. It's Yuri, as stated in episode 4 of Sweet Night. Jakjawagon (talk) 00:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Yoona shared room with Sooyoung and Taeyeon when they first debut and move into their dorm but after that they moved to a different dorm, Yoona's roommate became Yuri.
massive delete
I rolled back recent edits to this article in which a lerge amount of biographical information was deleted by an anon IP editor. I have no idea of the veracity of the information deleted or retained, but performed the rollback as suspected vandalism by an IP editor. If these deletions are valid, please discuss them here, preferably as a registered user, before making these changes again. Mattopaedia Have a yarn 12:54, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
MV Appearances
I noticed that in Kwon Yuri's article, her MV appearance was mentioned. Yoona appeared in many MVs as well, but why isn't any MV appearance of hers mentioned here? Regards, --Ellysse ♥ (talk) 18:06, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- The music video were deleted on the basis that they are not important... (here) --Dr. Crisp (talk) 14:36, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Jessica Jung which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 13:45, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Jessica (entertainer) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 19:30, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
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Drama cameos and other apearances
In the drama [Kimcheed Radish Cubes] Yoona (and some other SNSD members) are shown dancing in episode 9 around minute 26. Suposedly the show aired around the precise date the girls debuted.
Yoona surname is Lim
Yoona surname is Lim not Im. Yoona Republic of Korea passport(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae280/sosi036/26-1.jpg) Surname:LIM;Given names:YOONA--Sandylee215 (talk) 14:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
- According to the YoonA Official Instagram, YoonA real birth name is Lim Yoon-A(instead of Im Yoon-a). https://instagram.com/yoona__lim/ --Sandylee215 (talk) 15:14, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- According to the SM Town Live '10 World Tour in Shanghai "Artistes Confirmation" (http://sh.piao.com.cn/view/images/shanghai/smt/querenhan.html), her real birth name is "LIM YOONA". -- Cisdine (talk) 17:02, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Improvements to 1990-2007 section
I feel that there are a lot of irrelevant details in it that we do not need to show. Her interaction with a SM choreographer is it really needed?
Starting from "During her training days....." to "best female dancer in the industry" should be just deleted. I am currently unsure on this so I shall not do anything. When I edited another article, someone told me that information like this is irrelevant. Generally, other articles also do not contain information like this. EquilLoL (talk) 14:00, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
- I rewrote a majority of the article. Here is my question: Why would it be irrelevant when it portrays the process that she went through as a trainee? To me, a biography as defined on Wikipedia, "is a detailed description of a person's life. It involves more than just the basic facts like education, work, relationships, and death, but also portrays a subject's experience of these life events. Unlike a profile or curriculum vitae (résumé), a biography presents a subject's life story, highlighting various aspects of his or her life, including intimate details of experience, and may include an analysis of the subject's personality." So this is the kind of idea I thought of when I put those things together.--TerryAlex (talk) 14:38, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Variety show appearances
Do we really need an entire section dedicated to every single guest appearance she made on a variety show? If she had a regular spot on a show I'd understand but I fail to see the relevance in including the fact she appeared on a single episode of a show that was broadcast 5 years ago. DragonFury (talk) 22:46, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
- Same with music video appearances BTW DragonFury (talk) 23:01, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
- I think it is unnecessary, but guest appearances are listed on almost every K-pop singer/group's article. I don't think it makes sense to remove them here and keep them on most other pages. A more centralized discussion such as a request for comment might be a good idea at this point, since past discussions didn't really go anywhere. Random86 (talk) 23:56, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
- Please do not add a list of all variety shows guest appearances into the article. This kind of lists does not provide any encyclopedic values to someone's career/life. Moreover, Korean celebrities appear in these variety shows multiple times within a year. It would be ridiculous to list out every single one of them. If there is anything notable about any of these appearances, it can be written out as a sourced prose. And just because other K-pop articles tend to have this kind of list does not justify a reason for it to be here either.--TerryAlex (talk) 06:44, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- I wish theres another website than wiki to check actors/actress variety appearance. some people actually even watch a show with just their loved actor/actress guest starring on a drama. FAN-GIRLS/Guys needs a better website to check on actors and actress since wikipedia deems those appearance as no relevance LOL. any ideas guys..? where i can fully see korean actors/actress full listing of shows? Dramalist only provides drama and film. i can still rely HK/hollywood actors information on wikipedia and dramalist but korean actors seems to be less informative. will watch this page awaiting someone to share websites i can find better informative sites =) CHEERS ! PLEASE HELP HERE. I RLLY NEED IT even if its in korean let me know. Ill just google translate! Bluegal01 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:17, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
- Wikipedia's focus should be about expanding someone's life/career instead of listing out these trivial guest appearances that won't matter much in the long run. The K-pop articles are generally less informative because lots the prose materials are just announcements that cannot explain much about someone's career. Thank you.--TerryAlex (talk) 15:36, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
- I wish theres another website than wiki to check actors/actress variety appearance. some people actually even watch a show with just their loved actor/actress guest starring on a drama. FAN-GIRLS/Guys needs a better website to check on actors and actress since wikipedia deems those appearance as no relevance LOL. any ideas guys..? where i can fully see korean actors/actress full listing of shows? Dramalist only provides drama and film. i can still rely HK/hollywood actors information on wikipedia and dramalist but korean actors seems to be less informative. will watch this page awaiting someone to share websites i can find better informative sites =) CHEERS ! PLEASE HELP HERE. I RLLY NEED IT even if its in korean let me know. Ill just google translate! Bluegal01 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:17, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
- Please do not add a list of all variety shows guest appearances into the article. This kind of lists does not provide any encyclopedic values to someone's career/life. Moreover, Korean celebrities appear in these variety shows multiple times within a year. It would be ridiculous to list out every single one of them. If there is anything notable about any of these appearances, it can be written out as a sourced prose. And just because other K-pop articles tend to have this kind of list does not justify a reason for it to be here either.--TerryAlex (talk) 06:44, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- I think it is unnecessary, but guest appearances are listed on almost every K-pop singer/group's article. I don't think it makes sense to remove them here and keep them on most other pages. A more centralized discussion such as a request for comment might be a good idea at this point, since past discussions didn't really go anywhere. Random86 (talk) 23:56, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Awards
There was a concern on why I removed some of the recent edits, so I will link that discussion here. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks! --TerryAlex (talk) 17:16, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
- I don't see consensus for your continued reversion of awards - quite the contrary. Toddst1 (talk) 05:18, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
- If you are talking about the latest revert, Soompi and Allkpop have been agreed before to be unreliable. Thank you.--TerryAlex (talk) 05:20, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
- I don't see it and I don't really care about this article. I do see some WP:Ownership. I'm moving on. Happy editing. Toddst1 (talk) 05:25, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
- I won't explain myself too much, but I think people who have these K-pop articles on their watchlist can speak for my ethics. K-pop articles have a long history of people just adding a lot of trivial stuff like guest appearances on variety shows, non-notable awards from Soompi and Allkpop, etc. Thus, these explain the majority of my reverts. I don't usually revert on other things. Thank you.--TerryAlex (talk) 05:31, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
- No need to explain yourself Terry. This area of the 'pedia is notorious because of disruptive accounts and socks edit-warring unsourced or badly-sourced fancruft material into the articles. Your contributions are stellar in this area, as well as much appreciated. Happy New Year by the way. Dr. K. 05:58, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for your kind words, Dr.K. There are still a lot to do and much to learn. Always wish I could have done more against my own lack of ability. Thanks again and Happy New Year!--TerryAlex (talk) 06:27, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
- No need to explain yourself Terry. This area of the 'pedia is notorious because of disruptive accounts and socks edit-warring unsourced or badly-sourced fancruft material into the articles. Your contributions are stellar in this area, as well as much appreciated. Happy New Year by the way. Dr. K. 05:58, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) There have been discussions about Soompi, AllKpop etc. and the consensus is that they are fan-based unreliable sources. Drmies can attest to that. Dr. K. 05:28, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
- Haha happy new year to y'all too. I also see some OWNership in various K-pop articles, but mostly exercised by IPs, throwaway accounts, and fans. But that's by the by, of course. Yes, fan sites and portals and management-driven pages are not reliable sources; if there is no strong secondary sourcing (from outside the industry of artist management) there is no notability. That's common sense. Drmies (talk) 17:08, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
- Ah Doc. I don't know what I would do without you, especially in this sock-infested area. Sometimes you remind me of the legendary Cavalry, which in so many Hollywood cowboy movies would arrive just in time to save the day. I guess that was old Hollywood's version of the older concept of deus ex machina. In any case, Happy New Year to you too. :) Dr. K. 18:32, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
- Haha happy new year to y'all too. I also see some OWNership in various K-pop articles, but mostly exercised by IPs, throwaway accounts, and fans. But that's by the by, of course. Yes, fan sites and portals and management-driven pages are not reliable sources; if there is no strong secondary sourcing (from outside the industry of artist management) there is no notability. That's common sense. Drmies (talk) 17:08, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
- I won't explain myself too much, but I think people who have these K-pop articles on their watchlist can speak for my ethics. K-pop articles have a long history of people just adding a lot of trivial stuff like guest appearances on variety shows, non-notable awards from Soompi and Allkpop, etc. Thus, these explain the majority of my reverts. I don't usually revert on other things. Thank you.--TerryAlex (talk) 05:31, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
- I don't see it and I don't really care about this article. I do see some WP:Ownership. I'm moving on. Happy editing. Toddst1 (talk) 05:25, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
- If you are talking about the latest revert, Soompi and Allkpop have been agreed before to be unreliable. Thank you.--TerryAlex (talk) 05:20, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Removal of dating news
I started a discussion about this topic here. Please help to discuss. Thank you.--TerryAlex (talk) 14:32, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Requested move 26 January 2017
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: moved as proposed (non-admin closure). feminist 11:01, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
Im Yoona → Im Yoon-ah – The hyphen is in accordance with Korean naming convention guideline. So it's either Im Yoon-ah or Yoona; the latter being her singing stage name. The singer is also an actress and for her filmography work, she is being credited as her full name. According to WP:NCP, "don't use a first name (even if unambiguous) for an article title if the last name is known and fairly often used." Although it is certainly a common practice to drop the family name of a celeb in informal usage (especially for a Kpop girl/boy group member), but this is an encyclopedia, so we should have them at their formal full names. Also, there are usually three Korean characters for most Korean names; the last two characters are considered to be their first name and the first character is the last name, so for English readability purposes, the naming convention makes sense to have a hyphen to separate the characters between the first name. Without the hyphen, do we read it as Yoon Ah or Yoo Nah? This is the same problem with a lot of other Korean names when romanizated into English. The hyphen does help to distinguish the pronunciation. All other Girls' Generation members are named under the same format. In fact, when I was still a newbie on Wikipedia and still was not familiar with the rules, I requested to change Kim Tae-yeon's name here unsuccessfully. Thanks. TerryAlex (talk) 02:58, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
- Support "Im Yoon-ah" is appropriate in this situation, while "Yoona" is only the singer's name onstage. — Simon (talk) 03:18, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose: (1) Im Yoona is the established English spelling WP:NC-KO. Anybody can use Internet search engines to find it. User:TerryAlex is misunderstanding Korean naming convention guideline. The naming convention says "If there is no personal preference, and no established English spelling, hyphenate the syllables". (2) Im Yoona is WP:COMMONNAME. "Im Yoon-ah" -wikipedia (341k) vs. "Im Yoona" -wikipedia (1,080k). Sawol (talk) 05:16, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: Well, if you consider common name, Yoona would be more common since it's her singing stage name. In fact, she is often written in media as SNSD's Yoona or Yoona of Girls' Generation as evidence here [1] or [2]. But for Wikipedia purposes, most of K-pop idols should be named using their full names, except for names like D.O.--TerryAlex (talk) 05:46, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
- Support: Im Yoona is NOT an "established English spelling"; yes, it gives more results on Google, but majority of sources are unreliable, like fan blogs, forums, gossip sites and stuff like that-of course the fans will address her as "Yoona" and not "Yoon-ah", while in reliable sources like drama credits, she is addressed as "Yoon-ah" (just look for all reliable K2 drama-related sources). Yoona is just a stage name used by SNSD, but she is not only a singer and is actually even more known as an actress, so she should not be called by her singing stage name. Snowflake91 (talk) 11:16, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
- Support: As stated above, there's really no difference in Korean from Yoon-ah and Yoona. They are both essentially the same since Korean alphabet makes it explicit where the syllables are different. We should use her formal encyclopedic name as consistent with other Korean names, since there's no preferred alternate name and her last name is used fairly often in reliable sources. 03:38, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 26 January 2017
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: procedural close per above discussion. feminist 11:01, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
Im Yoona → Im Yoon-ah – Korean name convention always has a dash XPG 03:02, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
- This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:19, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose controversial Talk:Im Yoona#Requested move 26 January 2017 Sawol (talk) 05:22, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
- @XPrintGirl and Sawol: queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:19, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 10 February 2017
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: no consensus.From a pure numerical standpoint, the sides were about evenly split. An evaluation of the arguments showed that all sides had sources for their position and both had strong points that were in accord with policy. This discussion has been ongoing for three weeks and because of the length and in-depth nature of the discussion, it is unlikely that formally relisting will produce a clearer consensus. Since no consensus has been reached, the page defaults to not being moved since Im has been the stable name. (non-admin closure) TonyBallioni (talk) 01:04, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
- Admin note: WP:RMNAC is clear:
All closures of requested moves are subject to being taken to review at WP:Move review, but the mere fact that the closer was not an admin is not sufficient reason to reverse a closure.
I have therefore reinstated the non-admin closure of this discussion. This is a procedural step; I have not attempted to form view on the merits or otherwise of the close by non-admin @TonyBallioni. Editors who disagree with the close are free to open a WP:Move review. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:10, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
- Admin note: WP:RMNAC is clear:
Im Yoon-ah → Lim Yoon-ah – As per a section above, Yoona's surname is Lim, not Im. The incorrect surname here on Wikipedia has lead sites such as Google to display her name likewise erroneously. Not only is Lim her actual surname, but also by convention surnames are romanized traditionally. The same way Kim Tae-yeon is not Gim Tae-yeon, Lim Yoon-ah should not be Im Yoon-ah.
To sum up, two reasons: 1. Lim is Yoona's actual surname instead of Im; 2. Lim is the conventional way to romanize the surname. GeT RiGhT (talk) 22:46, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose: Not a single reliable source is calling her "Lim", so even if this is really her real name, it doesnt matter per WP:Commonname, which says "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources", so there is nothing to debate here since "Im" is used by 99% of sources. Snowflake91 (talk) 23:22, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- 1. This page was created in 2009. The initial title had the surname "Im". The continual use of her incorrect surname here on Wikipedia has inevitably lead even Google, among other important sites, to spell her surname erroneously. 2. The most frequently used name of Yoona is mere "Yoona" or "YoonA", not either "Lim Yoon-ah" or "Im Yoon-ah". Thus if we are to use the most frequently used name we should rename the article "Yoona" or "YoonA". GeT RiGhT (talk) 23:33, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- That doesnt change the fact that the most sources are using "Im" even if this is "Wikipedia's fault", and in fact the name is not wrong in the first place, Im and Lim are exactly the same names, just because she has "lim" in her instagram doesnt mean we should use that Snowflake91 (talk) 23:49, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Snowflake91: 1. The name is wrong. You ignored her passport photo, which clearly lists her surname as "Lim". Eight years is long enough for a mistake. 2. This does not fall under the "reliable sources," but all Korean and Chinese fansites (such as LimYoona.com and Lim Yoona Bar), have been using "Lim" where Yoona's surname appears, because the fandom existed before this Wikipedia article. As another "unreliable" piece of evidence, I searched "Lim Yoona" on Naver, and the first item under Naver Q&A is a question posed in 2016, asking whether Yoona's English name is "Im Yoona" or "Lim Yoona"; the second item is a question posed in 2009, three months after the initial creation of this article, in which the answer, being part of the fandom, lists Yoona's full English name as "Lim Yoona". Again, eight years is long enough for this mistake. GeT RiGhT (talk) 00:05, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Snowflake91: I googled more. I cannot find a single instance of the surname "Im" used before the initial creation of this Wikipedia article (mostly because all reliable sources mostly refer to Yoona by "Yoona" or "YoonA"). All uses of "Im" stem from Wikipedia, which has become in many ways the ultimate reliable source. I pledge to invoke WP:IAR to fix this mistake and give Yoona what she deserves as a person, because beyond a reasonable doubt we can be convinced that "Lim" is in actuality Yoona's correct surname, based on her passport photo above, and also the vast difference in the frequency of use of "Lim" and "Im" as romanizations of the surname (See this reliable source cited in article "Revised Romanization of Korean", which says both in 1999 and in 2007 more than 70% of people with this surname romanized it "Lim". GeT RiGhT (talk) 00:25, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- That doesnt change the fact that the most sources are using "Im" even if this is "Wikipedia's fault", and in fact the name is not wrong in the first place, Im and Lim are exactly the same names, just because she has "lim" in her instagram doesnt mean we should use that Snowflake91 (talk) 23:49, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose: I'm with Snowflake91, the point of the article name isn't to necessarily provide the most accurate name, it's to provide the name with which the person is most associated. In this case it's Im rather than Lim. On top of that, Korean transliteration is everything but an exact science, for every surname there's probably a half dozen versions in the English alphabet. DragonFury (talk) 01:34, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @DragonFury: (1) I understand the rules well. Thus as I said above in reply to Snowflake91 I pledge to invoke WP:IAR, because there exists ample evidence that the association of Yoona with the English spelling Im of the surname originates in Wikipedia, and that this association is erroneous. I believe we can establish the consensus that the correct spelling of Yoona's surname is Lim rather than Im at this point. (2) You evidently did not read this reliable source which I also provided in reply to Snowflake91. The Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism of South Korea tracked only three English spellings of the surname 임: Lim (71.4%), Im (19.5%), and Yim (4.7%) in 1999; the percentages changed slightly in 2007: Lim (71.% sic), Im (21.5%), Yim (4.2%). Thus I repeatedly said that Lim is the conventional way of romanizing Yoona's surname 임. These two facts I believe we can have consensus on: 1. The correct English spelling of Yoona's surname, as appearing on her passport, is Lim rather than Im; 2. The vast majority of people with Yoona's Korean surname romanize it Lim rather than Im. Based on these two facts I pledge to invoke WP:IAR to fix a long standing mistake on Wikipedia, which originated in 2009 here on Wikipedia and has for eight years spread all over the English speaking world. GeT RiGhT (talk) 02:02, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- If you note, sources almost all use simply Yoona. — AjaxSmack 01:59, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @AjaxSmack: Precisely. This is the reason I do not think the argument of WP:COMMONNAME stands as I said in my reply to Snowflake91. GeT RiGhT (talk) 02:04, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- You may be right (and "Im" tends to be used more for 任 [맡길임] versus "Lim" for 林 [수풀림]) but why not use her common name as the title? — AjaxSmack 02:13, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @AjaxSmack: It seems to me after some sort of discussion between senior members of Wikipedia regarding Korean names it has been settled that the "norm" is to use the format Surname Fore-name as article titles. Here I am trying to get Yoona's correct surname on the title. GeT RiGhT (talk) 02:22, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Well, some other senior editors settled on the policy of WP:COMMONNAMES that should trump [can I still say that?] it. — AjaxSmack 02:25, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @AjaxSmack: Lol boldly go for it… Have an argument with senior Wikipedians. I'll probably vouch for you there ha. But as of now I'm trying to make this move request completed here…and it's no easy-peasy. GeT RiGhT (talk) 02:30, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Well, some other senior editors settled on the policy of WP:COMMONNAMES that should trump [can I still say that?] it. — AjaxSmack 02:25, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @AjaxSmack: It seems to me after some sort of discussion between senior members of Wikipedia regarding Korean names it has been settled that the "norm" is to use the format Surname Fore-name as article titles. Here I am trying to get Yoona's correct surname on the title. GeT RiGhT (talk) 02:22, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- You may be right (and "Im" tends to be used more for 任 [맡길임] versus "Lim" for 林 [수풀림]) but why not use her common name as the title? — AjaxSmack 02:13, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @AjaxSmack: Precisely. This is the reason I do not think the argument of WP:COMMONNAME stands as I said in my reply to Snowflake91. GeT RiGhT (talk) 02:04, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- To future editors: please read all that I have written in reply to the oppositions, including the facts, all the evidence I have presented in support of the facts, and my argument based on the facts. Thank you very much. GeT RiGhT (talk) 02:27, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with you that the oppose votes above offered no evidence and I also agree that Wikipedia might be driving "Im" usage. However, in trying to research the usage myself in the article's sources, I found overwhelming usage of simply "Yoona" and too few uses of either surname to warrant use of either in the title. BTW, according to the her passport photo, "Yoon-ah" is incorrect also. — AjaxSmack 04:18, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Most English sources use "Yoona" because it's a stage name - she'll normally be referred to as Girls' Generation's Yoona. That's just how entertainment goes, most articles are nothing more than press releases and advertisement. As this is also her real name, I think WP:SINGLENAME applies. For a formal encyclopedia, we should stick with last name - first name, she's not famous in antiquity for traditional single name. I'm ambivalent to the last name, though a picture of a passport found on the internet with no confirming reliable source is probably against WP:PRIMARY - don't use a first name (even if unambiguous) for an article title if the last name is known and fairly often used. Evaders99 (talk) 04:30, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- In this case, WP:STAGENAME ("The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not the person's 'real' name") in conjunction with WP:SINGLENAME ("don't use a first name...if the last name is known and fairly often used. [my emphasis]) lead to Yoona as the best title. Her last name is rarely used, even in more "respectable" publications. The WP:SINGLENAME admonition is more for cases like Oprah Winfrey who is commonly called "Oprah" but is usually referred to by her last name in formal sources. Yoona is more like the case of Beyoncé who is much more rarely referred to by her last name in sources (much like fellow SNSD member Seohyun). — AjaxSmack 06:21, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- It's a bit complicated for Korean celebrities names as they are referred to as either first name or full names in both English and Korean sources. She is both a singer and an actress, and is credited as her full name for her filmography work example; her last name is generally well-known as well, so WP:STAGENAME won't entirely apply. Seohyun or D.O. (entertainer) is indeed a stage name as neither are their real first names. And I already explained the reason for the hyphen between her first name above. Fans generally know her as Yoona, but for the general readers, having a hyphen helps to distinguish the Korean characters of Korean first names.
- BTW, the singer-actress is indeed being associated more with her last name being "Im", even within Girls' Generation's fandom. She is famous in China, where I think her last name is being associated more with the "Lim" spelling, but for international fans in general, "Im" is the common usage. Note that there are several ways that this last names 임 has been romanizated: Im, Lim or Yim. But Im is the literal translation according to the Korean character. Both the Revised Romanization of Korean and McCune–Reischauer for this last name 임 is "Im", per Korean Romanization Converter from Pusan National University as well as Im (Korean surname) and List of Korean family names--TerryAlex (talk) 07:22, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @TerryAlex: I apologize for saying this but you obviously did not read what I have written in full. Not only because by convention surnames are romanized traditionally (note that traditionally does not mean McCune–Reischauer; in the case of 임 it stems from the fact that it is spelt 림 when not used at the start of a word, and in North Korea it is still spelt this way even as a surname), but also in this reliable source which I have cited twice above in both my reply to Snowflake91 and that to DragonFury there are actual statistics by South Korean government in support of the vast difference in the frequencies of these two romanizations of 임 in question [again, copied from my reply to DragonFury: Lim (71.4%), Im (19.5%), and Yim (4.7%) in 1999; Lim (71.% [sic]), Im (21.5%), Yim (4.2%) in 2007]. If you do not wish to talk about China or Chinese fansites that's fine, but do you just ignore one of her biggest Korean fansite LimYoona.com? I would like to make my points again here: (1) Based on her password photo (yes it is unconfirmed and unreliable; ergo I never said once that we should cite it) and the vast difference in frequencies between the use of Lim and Im, we can beyond be convinced beyond a reasonable degree of doubt that Yoona's surname is Lim rather than Im; thus it is a mistake to use Im as Yoona's surname because her surname is in actuality Lim. (2) We can reasonably be convinced that this mistake originated here on Wikipedia when Yoona's article was initially created in 2009, and the spelling of Im is used as her surname without any sources, reliable or unreliable; due to the reliability of Wikipedia this initial mistake has thus spread all over the English-speaking world; therefore all reliable sources use Im where Yoona's surname appears; but, again, based on existing evidence Wikipedia has been driving the use of Im rather than vice versa, which is what things should be. Based on these two facts which we can have much more confidence to believe than to disbelieve, I propose to invoke WP:IAR to fix this mistake and give Yoona what she deserves as a person. GeT RiGhT (talk) 12:50, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Note that I have not voted to neither support nor oppose this move as it's a complicated matter. I am not here to say whether "Im" was used as a mistake or not, but her last name is so well-established already that it would be strange to change it. None of the sources refer to her with the Lim last name. If the spelling Yoon-ah is strange to some, changing Im to Lim is even stranger. BTW, Im is the literal way of reading 임, so saying that it's a mistake stemming from Wikipedia is invalid.--TerryAlex (talk) 16:54, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @TerryAlex: I concur that I was wrong in using the phrase "originated here on Wikipedia" as Snowflake91 pointed out below. However my stance remains unchanged as there is reason to place more confidence in the belief that Wikipedia has contributed much more than most other sites to the prevalence of Im as Yoona's surname in the English literature, than in that Wikipedia has not done so. One of the most important pieces of evidence for this claim is that Google Knowledge Graph fetches its information from Wikipedia, among other sites; and in the present case there is near 100% probability that Google fetches Yoona's full name in the Knowledge Graph from Wikipedia when a user searches for "Yoona". I would again like to point out the fact that when Yoona's English article was initially created with her surname spelt Im, no source, reliable or not, was cited, and this state remained for a fair amount of time. It was a mistake to spell her surname Im in the English Wikipedia article title without any source when there is reason to suspect that it could be spelt Lim based on the statistics from the South Korean government which I cited above three times, among other evidence. In consequence I think we have reason to place more confidence in the belief that if we are to show Yoona's actual, correct surname in the title here on Wikipedia many reliable sources will follow suit, chief among which will be Google's Knowledge Graph; if there is one thing people refer to more often than Wikipedia when they wish to know about something, it is Google. GeT RiGhT (talk) 18:35, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Note that I have not voted to neither support nor oppose this move as it's a complicated matter. I am not here to say whether "Im" was used as a mistake or not, but her last name is so well-established already that it would be strange to change it. None of the sources refer to her with the Lim last name. If the spelling Yoon-ah is strange to some, changing Im to Lim is even stranger. BTW, Im is the literal way of reading 임, so saying that it's a mistake stemming from Wikipedia is invalid.--TerryAlex (talk) 16:54, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @TerryAlex: I apologize for saying this but you obviously did not read what I have written in full. Not only because by convention surnames are romanized traditionally (note that traditionally does not mean McCune–Reischauer; in the case of 임 it stems from the fact that it is spelt 림 when not used at the start of a word, and in North Korea it is still spelt this way even as a surname), but also in this reliable source which I have cited twice above in both my reply to Snowflake91 and that to DragonFury there are actual statistics by South Korean government in support of the vast difference in the frequencies of these two romanizations of 임 in question [again, copied from my reply to DragonFury: Lim (71.4%), Im (19.5%), and Yim (4.7%) in 1999; Lim (71.% [sic]), Im (21.5%), Yim (4.2%) in 2007]. If you do not wish to talk about China or Chinese fansites that's fine, but do you just ignore one of her biggest Korean fansite LimYoona.com? I would like to make my points again here: (1) Based on her password photo (yes it is unconfirmed and unreliable; ergo I never said once that we should cite it) and the vast difference in frequencies between the use of Lim and Im, we can beyond be convinced beyond a reasonable degree of doubt that Yoona's surname is Lim rather than Im; thus it is a mistake to use Im as Yoona's surname because her surname is in actuality Lim. (2) We can reasonably be convinced that this mistake originated here on Wikipedia when Yoona's article was initially created in 2009, and the spelling of Im is used as her surname without any sources, reliable or unreliable; due to the reliability of Wikipedia this initial mistake has thus spread all over the English-speaking world; therefore all reliable sources use Im where Yoona's surname appears; but, again, based on existing evidence Wikipedia has been driving the use of Im rather than vice versa, which is what things should be. Based on these two facts which we can have much more confidence to believe than to disbelieve, I propose to invoke WP:IAR to fix this mistake and give Yoona what she deserves as a person. GeT RiGhT (talk) 12:50, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- In this case, WP:STAGENAME ("The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not the person's 'real' name") in conjunction with WP:SINGLENAME ("don't use a first name...if the last name is known and fairly often used. [my emphasis]) lead to Yoona as the best title. Her last name is rarely used, even in more "respectable" publications. The WP:SINGLENAME admonition is more for cases like Oprah Winfrey who is commonly called "Oprah" but is usually referred to by her last name in formal sources. Yoona is more like the case of Beyoncé who is much more rarely referred to by her last name in sources (much like fellow SNSD member Seohyun). — AjaxSmack 06:21, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Most English sources use "Yoona" because it's a stage name - she'll normally be referred to as Girls' Generation's Yoona. That's just how entertainment goes, most articles are nothing more than press releases and advertisement. As this is also her real name, I think WP:SINGLENAME applies. For a formal encyclopedia, we should stick with last name - first name, she's not famous in antiquity for traditional single name. I'm ambivalent to the last name, though a picture of a passport found on the internet with no confirming reliable source is probably against WP:PRIMARY - don't use a first name (even if unambiguous) for an article title if the last name is known and fairly often used. Evaders99 (talk) 04:30, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with you that the oppose votes above offered no evidence and I also agree that Wikipedia might be driving "Im" usage. However, in trying to research the usage myself in the article's sources, I found overwhelming usage of simply "Yoona" and too few uses of either surname to warrant use of either in the title. BTW, according to the her passport photo, "Yoon-ah" is incorrect also. — AjaxSmack 04:18, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Once again, to future editors: please read my arguments all written above and refute them if you have to. GeT RiGhT (talk) 12:50, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Again, if the reliable sources are using "Im", we should use "Im", and the reason why all sources are using "wrong" romanization is not our problem, and do you have any proof that she is called "Im" because of Wikipedia? Look at This, its a forum thread from January 2008, so 15 months before her article was created, and as you can see she was called "Im" because back in 2008 all sources used "Im", so it has nothing to do with Wikipedia article Snowflake91 (talk) 13:17, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Snowflake91: See my reply to TerryAlex above. One thing I would like to say in reply to your comment specifically: I am not to "prove" anything. (I am a mathematics and computer science major and a philosophy minor; I do not use this word so frivolously.) I look for and present evidence, and I reach conclusions which I have more reason to believe than to disbelieve based on all the evidence available. GeT RiGhT (talk) 18:35, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Then ALL people named "Im" on Wikipedia are wrong, because they should use "Lim" for "임". Look at Im (Korean surname), there are many notable people named "Im" (임).
Also, do you know Na-yeon from Twice (band)? Her name is "임" as well, and all sources are calling her "Im Nayeon"...is this also Wikipedia's and Google search graph fault, even though there is no article about her? Snowflake91 (talk) 19:12, 11 February 2017 (UTC)- @Snowflake91: I will stop debating with you. GeT RiGhT (talk) 19:16, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Thats fine since there is nothing to really debate here, if your only evidence of "Lim" is that leaked picture of her ID, her instagram account's name and "@limyoonacom" twitter FAN account, while all published, reliable sources are using "Im", then I dont know what more to say. Snowflake91 (talk) 19:39, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Snowflake91: You did not comprehend any of my arguments, which have been repeated above over and over again. But if you wish to get down and dirty and talk about reliable sources, we can talk about reliable sources. Here is the first sentence from Yoona's IMDb profile: Yoona was born on May 30, 1990 in Seoul, South Korea as Lim Yoona. What's more, here is what I can find on every single one of the sources considered reliable by WikiProject Korea:
- Asia Today Korea: Refers to Yoona as "YoonA" or "Girls' Generation's YoonA"; zero results for "Im Yoona", "Im Yoon-ah", "Lim Yoona", or "Lim Yoon-ah".
- BNT News: Refers to Yoona as "YoonA" or "Girls Generation YoonA"; zero results for "Im Yoona", "Im Yoon-ah", or "Lim Yoon-ah". There are several results for "Lim Yoona": [bnt photo] Lim Yoona, 'Fighting!', [bnt photo] Song Yoon Ah Talks about the Drama in which are the words "…Go Anna (Lim Yoona)…", etc.
- Britannica Korea: In Korean.
- The Chosun Ilbo: Refers to Yoona as "Yoona"; zero results for "Im Yoona", "Im Yoon-ah", "Lim Yoona", or "Lim Yoon-ah".
- Daum Encyclopedia: In Korean.
- The Dong-a Ilbo: Refers to Yoona as "YoonA"; zero results for "Im Yoona", "Im Yoon-ah", "Lim Yoona", or "Lim Yoon-ah".
- Hankook Ilbo: In Korean.
- The Hankyoreh: In Korean.
- Koreana: Zero results for any of Yoona's name spellings.
- KBS World Radio: Refers to Yoona as "Yoona" or "Girls' Generation Yoona" or "Girls' Generation's Yoona"; zero results for "Im Yoon-ah", "Lim Yoona", or "Lim Yoon-ah". There is one result for "Im Yoona": In Yoona's artist profile, her full name is said to be Im Yoona.
- The Korea Herald: Refers to Yoona as "Yoona"; zero results for "Im Yoon-ah", "Lim Yoona", or "Lim Yoon-ah". There are two results for "Im Yoona": Biggest names in Korean entertainment to attend 2016 Asia Artist Awards in which are the words "…Girls’ Generation’s Im Yoona…" and ‘K2’ wraps up with top ratings in which are the words "…Girls’ Generation’s singer Im Yoona…".
- Korea JoongAng Daily: Refers to Yoona as "Yoona"; zero results for "Im Yoon-ah", "Lim Yoona", or "Lim Yoon-ah". There are two results for "Im Yoona": New look in which there the words "…Im Yoona of the K-pop group Girls’ Generation…" and A new power couple emerges in which there the words "…Im Yoona is the first member of Girls’ Generation…".
- The Korea Times: Refers to Yoona as "Yoona"; zero results for "Im Yoon-ah", "Lim Yoona", or "Lim Yoon-ah". There is one result for "Im Yoona": New age of hallyu goddesses emerges in which are the words "The emerging hallyu stars are singers Im Yoona…"
- Korea Economic Daily: Zero results for any of Yoona's name spellings.
- Korea Gallup: Zero results for any of Yoona's name spellings.
- Kpop Herald: This is the entertainment site of The Korea Herald cited above. It refers to Yoona as "Yoona"; zero results for "Im Yoon-ah", "Lim Yoona", or "Lim Yoon-ah". There are two additional results for "Im Yoona" besides those two from The Korea Herald: Girls' Generation's Yoona turns 25 in which are the words "…Im Yoon-a, from Girls' Generation…" and Innisfree releases mini-drama ads of Lee Min-ho, Yoona in which are the words "…K-pop singer Im Yoona…" (Notice the inconsistency).
- KpopStarz: Refers to Yoona as "Girls' Generation's Yoona", "SNSD Yoona", "Yoona", "YoonA", "Im Yoona", or "Girls' Generation's Im Yoona". zero results for "Im Yoon-ah", "Lim Yoona", or "Lim Yoon-ah".
- Kyunghyang Shinmun: There is only one instance of referring to Yoona, where the name "Yoona" is used: Actresses Are Thirsty for Diverse Roles in which are the words "Idol stars such as IU, Suzy, Yoona…"
- Maxim Korea: Zero results for any of Yoona's name spellings.
- Metro Seoul: In Korean.
- MWave: Refers to Yoona as "YoonA" or "SNSD'd YoonA"; zero results for "Im Yoona", "Im Yoon-ah", "Lim Yoona", or "Lim Yoon-ah".
- Newsen: In Korean.
- OSEN: In Korean.
- Seoul Shinmun: In Korean.
- StarN: Refers to Yoona as "Yoon Ah"; zero results for "Im Yoona", "Im Yoon-ah", "Lim Yoona", or "Lim Yoon-ah".
- StarNews: Refers to Yoona as "SNSD's Yoona" or "Yoona"; zero results for "Im Yoona", "Im Yoon-ah", "Lim Yoona", or "Lim Yoon-ah".
- TenAsia: In Korean.
- Visit Seoul: There are only two instances of referring to Yoona, where the name "Yoona" is used: CARNABY ST in which are the words "…Yoona from SNSD…" and Seoul Restaurants as Featured in Celebrities’ Social Media! in which are the words "…Yoona of Girls’ Generation…"
- Visit Korea: There are only two instances of referring to Yoona, where the name "Yoona" is used: Yoona and Yuri Round Out SNSD Member Teasers for ′Party′ and SNSD′s Yoona and EXO′s Lay to Miss SMTOWN Concert in Taiwan Due to Filming.
- Yonhap: Refers to Yoona as "Yoona" or "Girls' Generation's Yoona"; zero results for "Im Yoon-ah" or "Lim Yoona". There is one instance of "Im Yoona": (Yonhap Interview) Singer-actor Im Yoona says 'The K2' helps change her image on small screen; and there are 14 results with Yoona being named "Lim Yoon-ah" in pictures: Photos search result.
- As you can see I am not being selective of facts here. What conclusions you reach with these facts are a reflection of your reasonability. GeT RiGhT (talk) 21:50, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- There are still more sources in this list referring to her as "Im" rather than "Lim" (5 uses Im, 2 uses Lim, the last source is using both), so unless "Lim" is predominantly used in the English sources, there are no reasons for moving the page. While Yoona vs. Yoon-ah thing has already been debated just a couple of weeks ago, and the ultimate agreement with no objections of preferred name would never be reached about that. Snowflake91 (talk) 22:11, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Snowflake91: What follows from these facts is the invalidity of your argument that "all published, reliable sources are using Im". You cannot even argue that the majority of reliable sources use Im, because from these sources explicitly considered reliable by WikiProject Korea even if we only consider those in English and mention Yoona at all, there are 17 in total, out of which only 6 used Im, and for these 6 sources the usage of Im Yoona or its variants is a tiny percentage of the total usage of Yoona's name. Your argument that reliable sources all or mostly use Im does not hold. All you can say is there is no established English spelling of Yoona's surname among reliable sources, if they mention Yoona's surname at all. My arguments, however, which have been written above several times, and which you never successfully refuted, are now reinforced by the new evidence. GeT RiGhT (talk) 23:22, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Obviously I was talking about examples when she is mentioned by her full name when I said "all published, reliable sources are using Im", of course I knew that simply "Yoona" or "SNSD Yoona" is equally frequently (or even more) used than "Im Yoon-ah", and I dont know what kind of the "new evidence" you have, you basically confirmed yourself with those links that Im is more frequently used than Lim (okay I was wrong here, not "all" reliable sources are using Im but more like 80% of sources, so still much more than Lim, and by "all" I didnt mean literally all, there will always be a couple of sources calling her otherwise) but you can of course freely open a new move request if you want to move the article to Yoona or Yoona (entertainer) or SNSD Yoona or something like that if those names are more frequently used, but for this case, "Im" is more commonly used than "Lim". Snowflake91 (talk) 23:46, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Snowflake91: What follows from these facts is the invalidity of your argument that "all published, reliable sources are using Im". You cannot even argue that the majority of reliable sources use Im, because from these sources explicitly considered reliable by WikiProject Korea even if we only consider those in English and mention Yoona at all, there are 17 in total, out of which only 6 used Im, and for these 6 sources the usage of Im Yoona or its variants is a tiny percentage of the total usage of Yoona's name. Your argument that reliable sources all or mostly use Im does not hold. All you can say is there is no established English spelling of Yoona's surname among reliable sources, if they mention Yoona's surname at all. My arguments, however, which have been written above several times, and which you never successfully refuted, are now reinforced by the new evidence. GeT RiGhT (talk) 23:22, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- There are still more sources in this list referring to her as "Im" rather than "Lim" (5 uses Im, 2 uses Lim, the last source is using both), so unless "Lim" is predominantly used in the English sources, there are no reasons for moving the page. While Yoona vs. Yoon-ah thing has already been debated just a couple of weeks ago, and the ultimate agreement with no objections of preferred name would never be reached about that. Snowflake91 (talk) 22:11, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Snowflake91: You did not comprehend any of my arguments, which have been repeated above over and over again. But if you wish to get down and dirty and talk about reliable sources, we can talk about reliable sources. Here is the first sentence from Yoona's IMDb profile: Yoona was born on May 30, 1990 in Seoul, South Korea as Lim Yoona. What's more, here is what I can find on every single one of the sources considered reliable by WikiProject Korea:
- Thats fine since there is nothing to really debate here, if your only evidence of "Lim" is that leaked picture of her ID, her instagram account's name and "@limyoonacom" twitter FAN account, while all published, reliable sources are using "Im", then I dont know what more to say. Snowflake91 (talk) 19:39, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Snowflake91: I will stop debating with you. GeT RiGhT (talk) 19:16, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Then ALL people named "Im" on Wikipedia are wrong, because they should use "Lim" for "임". Look at Im (Korean surname), there are many notable people named "Im" (임).
- @Snowflake91: See my reply to TerryAlex above. One thing I would like to say in reply to your comment specifically: I am not to "prove" anything. (I am a mathematics and computer science major and a philosophy minor; I do not use this word so frivolously.) I look for and present evidence, and I reach conclusions which I have more reason to believe than to disbelieve based on all the evidence available. GeT RiGhT (talk) 18:35, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Again, if the reliable sources are using "Im", we should use "Im", and the reason why all sources are using "wrong" romanization is not our problem, and do you have any proof that she is called "Im" because of Wikipedia? Look at This, its a forum thread from January 2008, so 15 months before her article was created, and as you can see she was called "Im" because back in 2008 all sources used "Im", so it has nothing to do with Wikipedia article Snowflake91 (talk) 13:17, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: If the passport photo can be verified, for example if it is footage from a TV show where the singer showed the passport, then the article name should be Lim Yoona. The name 임 is "Im" in McCune-Reischauer as well as revized Romanization. However, varieties of McR exist, so, depending on the "method", it can also be Yim. Commonly, 임 is also romanized as Lim. The reason for this is that in the past 임 was spelled 림 in Korea (and still is in North Korea). However, South Korea unverwent a "spelling reform". That does not make "Lim" false. Koreans can chose the spelling of their names in Latin alphabet freely. The chosen spelling of the person or their parents should be prefered if known. --Christian140 (talk) 21:20, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- The picture is almost certain not from the TV show and is obviously leaked by some airport worker or something, so it has no credibility since it can also be fake, there are no source who and when took this image so it has no meaning. Snowflake91 (talk) 21:38, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- Move to Yoona per AjaxSmack. If you look at the sources analysed this is clearly the common name in English language reliable sources. Plus it means we avoid having to decide on "Im" vs "Lim", which the sources are clearly split on. And even if you would argue that "Im Yoon-ah" or "Lim Yoon-ah" is more common, to quote our article titles policy: "When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others." Clearly using simply Yoona for the title will cause the least problems. Jenks24 (talk) 09:14, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Jenks24: I have no objection to moving the article to "Yoona", "YoonA", or another variant of her stage name. However, in the article we need to state her full name; therefore the consensus on her surname being "Lim" or "Im" needs to be established regardless of the article title. I am neutral on the article title either being "Surname Fore-name" or being "Stage Name", but, again, we need to establish her English surname regardless of the article title. GeT RiGhT (talk) 17:24, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
- No, that's the beauty of it. In the article we can explain that sources give her surname as both "Lim" and "Im", and that both are acceptable ways to transliterate her name from Korean. That sort of nuance can't be done in the title though. Jenks24 (talk) 17:40, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Jenks24: Okay. I can support this approach. By the way, I decided to archive Yoona's passport photo, unreliable as it is, here. GeT RiGhT (talk) 18:37, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Jenks24: I think, however, contention could arise from the incompatibility of this move with titles of other Korean names on Wikipedia, as TerryAlex argued. GeT RiGhT (talk) 18:47, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
- No, that's the beauty of it. In the article we can explain that sources give her surname as both "Lim" and "Im", and that both are acceptable ways to transliterate her name from Korean. That sort of nuance can't be done in the title though. Jenks24 (talk) 17:40, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Jenks24: I have no objection to moving the article to "Yoona", "YoonA", or another variant of her stage name. However, in the article we need to state her full name; therefore the consensus on her surname being "Lim" or "Im" needs to be established regardless of the article title. I am neutral on the article title either being "Surname Fore-name" or being "Stage Name", but, again, we need to establish her English surname regardless of the article title. GeT RiGhT (talk) 17:24, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose: I see a problem with moving it to Yoona. There are few other celebrities with the same first name: Kim Yoon-ah, Oh Yoon-ah and Song Yoon-ah. Perhaps, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC might apply for the term. Her last name, whether Im or Lim, distinguishes her from the other two celebrities.--TerryAlex (talk) 18:49, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
- They are not known simply as Yoona, though. — AjaxSmack 02:50, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Their first names are exactly the same though. Technically, all three can be known as both first name and full name. Im Yoon-ah and Song Yoon-ah were recently in a drama together and some news articles even refer to them as Senior Yoona and Junior Yoona. I now don't think moving it to "Yoona" is an option. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC would apply to the term as a redirect.--TerryAlex (talk) 03:03, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- You've provided no evidence they are ever referred to as simply "Yoona". But regardless of that, you can clearly see by page views that this article would be the primary topic anyway. Jenks24 (talk) 12:00, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: It's complicated (in K-pop). Essentially, Yoon-ah and Yoona are basically the same; they both come from the Korean characters 윤아. Yoona (or Yoon-ah) just happen to be a common name in Korea (unlike unique names like Madonna or Beyoncé). And Im is becoming more known for her filmography work. I know a lot of sources currently refer to her as Girls' Generation's Yoona, but anyone who is familiar with the band knows that Im has a more significant acting career compared to singing; and she is likely to continue to do so, where her full name is used. There are confusions because for Korean culture, there are still fewer English translation sources compared to original Korean sources; but her full name (for filmography) is mentioned in Korean articles like this [3] or [4]. There has also been discussions on moving back and forth the article titles for other Girls' Generation's members such as Talk:Choi Soo-young or Talk:Kim_Tae-yeon/Archive_1 where their full names are now the current titles (I'm most familiar with Girls' Generation that's why I tend to cite their past discussions). I know Yoona is the primary topic for Im (that's why I said it would be a redirect for this page). It might sound like I'm babbling here, but moving the article to Yoona won't stick in the long-term.--TerryAlex (talk) 15:40, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- It doesn't need to "stick in the long-term". We should go with what reliable secondary sources commonly use now. If those sources change their usage in the future, it can be addressed at that time. — AjaxSmack 18:42, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- The point is as an individual, her acting career is more significant/notable where her full name is credited. That is why she has her individual page gets created as opposed to merely being a member of the girl group. She has very limited individual singing projects, most of her singing work are with Girls' Generation. There would be no point in having her individual article if it was not for her acting career. She might be known as Yoona of Girls' Generation, but also Im Yoon-ah as the actress. Im or Lim, Yoon-ah or Yoona is just Hangul romanization variations; they all are the same Korean characters. GeT RiGhT and Snowflake91, you really think moving the article title to Yoona is correct? Teemeah, can you offer your opinion on this one as well?--TerryAlex (talk) 18:47, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- I would prefer the current full name, she is never addressed simply as "Yoona", there is always word "Girls' generation's" before her name, see 1, 2, 3, 4 etc., so if you want the common name, you should rename the article to Girls' Geneartion's Yoona (if that makes any sense), and not Yoona Snowflake91 (talk) 19:48, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, she is not Yoona the individual, she is Yoona of Girls' Generation (when she is with her group). But for her own individual notable work, her full name should be credited. Any sort of variations of Yoona for the article title would undermine her acting work. Yoona is not a unique stage name either, it's a common name in Korea and a shortened form of her full name, as applicable too many other K-pop idols.--TerryAlex (talk) 20:46, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- @TerryAlex: If I allow myself to digress from my principal object, Snowflake91's argument above in objection of moving the article to "Yoona" is demonstrably false. Reliable sources constantly use merely "Yoona" instead of attaching Girls' Generation to her name. A quick search on any of the sources I cited above in my previous reply to Snowflake91 which mention Yoona can prove it: [Herald Review] ‘Confidential Assignment’ is familiar but entertaining mix of humor, drama, action contains "K-pop star Yoona also makes her film debut..."; Most anticipated Hallyu stars of 2017 in China contains "Korean celebrities Kim Soo-hyun, Jun Ji-hyun, Song Joong-ki and Yoona were selected as Hallyu stars..."; Actresses Are Thirsty for Diverse Roles contains "Idol stars such as IU, Suzy, Yoona and Hyeri also appear in TV dramas..."; etc. I will not, however, entangle myself in another petty quarrel over whether or not Snowflake91 was erroneous. GeT RiGhT (talk) 21:18, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- "Yoona" is not known as an individual. You cannot just say that. She is Yoona of Girls' Generation. Most of reliable sources will confirm that as given by Snowflake91 or more here [5], [6], or [7]. She is either written as Girls' Generation's Yoona or SNSD's Yoona. It's because of this sort of arguments, it creates more confusion for people who are not familiar with K-pop. Honestly speaking, at this point of the discussion, your argument to change the last name from "Im" to "Lim" is not going to work. Whether the article title gets moved to "Yoona" or not, the last name "Im" will most likely stay. And if your argument is to "give Yoona what she deserves as a person", how is moving from her full name to "Yoona" going to justify that? Yoona, the individual, is more notable for her acting work.--TerryAlex (talk) 21:30, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- @TerryAlex: Again on the subject of whether moving to "Yoona" is appropriate, I concur that in the Korean sources Yoona's full name 임윤아 is no less common than her stage name as a member of Girls' Generation, especially as appearances in dramatic works; and, indeed, Yoona is always (which means the contrary is never true) credited as 임윤아 in Korean televisions. What I perceive in the English sources, however, is that mere Yoona is much more prevalent than her full name, and, as I argued above, the English sources do not agree on whether her English surname should be "Im" or "Lim." Since we here on the English Wikipedia should resort to English-language sources when possible, moving the article to "Yoona" may not be as improper as it seems when looking at the Korean sources. Another point which I noticed, by the way, is that Yoona's Korean-language article is merely "윤아." On the principal issue of her English surname, I cite Jenks24's solution above; that is, as long as the article title does not contain Yoona's surname, I do not think it outlandish that we should include both "Im" and "Lim" as her surname in the article, since indeed many reliable sources use "Lim" as Yoona's English surname, despite the fact that "Im" is also used. My slogan of "give Yoona what she deserves as a person" is, again, to recognize her correct surname; whether or not surname is in the article title is irrelevant. GeT RiGhT (talk) 21:43, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- I already said it before, the problem with Korean pop culture is that there are still fewer English translation sources compared to original Korean sources. It doesn't mean that she is known merely as Yoona of Girls' Generation. Most English articles on K-pop are merely announcements or advertisements. Honestly speaking, to edit Girls' Generation's related articles, I often have to use Korean sources because they are always a lot more in depth. Her acting work, which is more notable, should be fully credited. "I concur that in the Korean sources Yoona's full name 임윤아 is no less common than her stage name as a member of Girls' Generation, especially as appearances in dramatic works; and, indeed, Yoona is always (which means the contrary is never true) credited as 임윤아 in Korean televisions.": Her full name as the article title will have to stay.--TerryAlex (talk) 22:01, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- @TerryAlex: Again on the subject of whether moving to "Yoona" is appropriate, I concur that in the Korean sources Yoona's full name 임윤아 is no less common than her stage name as a member of Girls' Generation, especially as appearances in dramatic works; and, indeed, Yoona is always (which means the contrary is never true) credited as 임윤아 in Korean televisions. What I perceive in the English sources, however, is that mere Yoona is much more prevalent than her full name, and, as I argued above, the English sources do not agree on whether her English surname should be "Im" or "Lim." Since we here on the English Wikipedia should resort to English-language sources when possible, moving the article to "Yoona" may not be as improper as it seems when looking at the Korean sources. Another point which I noticed, by the way, is that Yoona's Korean-language article is merely "윤아." On the principal issue of her English surname, I cite Jenks24's solution above; that is, as long as the article title does not contain Yoona's surname, I do not think it outlandish that we should include both "Im" and "Lim" as her surname in the article, since indeed many reliable sources use "Lim" as Yoona's English surname, despite the fact that "Im" is also used. My slogan of "give Yoona what she deserves as a person" is, again, to recognize her correct surname; whether or not surname is in the article title is irrelevant. GeT RiGhT (talk) 21:43, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- "Yoona" is not known as an individual. You cannot just say that. She is Yoona of Girls' Generation. Most of reliable sources will confirm that as given by Snowflake91 or more here [5], [6], or [7]. She is either written as Girls' Generation's Yoona or SNSD's Yoona. It's because of this sort of arguments, it creates more confusion for people who are not familiar with K-pop. Honestly speaking, at this point of the discussion, your argument to change the last name from "Im" to "Lim" is not going to work. Whether the article title gets moved to "Yoona" or not, the last name "Im" will most likely stay. And if your argument is to "give Yoona what she deserves as a person", how is moving from her full name to "Yoona" going to justify that? Yoona, the individual, is more notable for her acting work.--TerryAlex (talk) 21:30, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- @TerryAlex: If I allow myself to digress from my principal object, Snowflake91's argument above in objection of moving the article to "Yoona" is demonstrably false. Reliable sources constantly use merely "Yoona" instead of attaching Girls' Generation to her name. A quick search on any of the sources I cited above in my previous reply to Snowflake91 which mention Yoona can prove it: [Herald Review] ‘Confidential Assignment’ is familiar but entertaining mix of humor, drama, action contains "K-pop star Yoona also makes her film debut..."; Most anticipated Hallyu stars of 2017 in China contains "Korean celebrities Kim Soo-hyun, Jun Ji-hyun, Song Joong-ki and Yoona were selected as Hallyu stars..."; Actresses Are Thirsty for Diverse Roles contains "Idol stars such as IU, Suzy, Yoona and Hyeri also appear in TV dramas..."; etc. I will not, however, entangle myself in another petty quarrel over whether or not Snowflake91 was erroneous. GeT RiGhT (talk) 21:18, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, she is not Yoona the individual, she is Yoona of Girls' Generation (when she is with her group). But for her own individual notable work, her full name should be credited. Any sort of variations of Yoona for the article title would undermine her acting work. Yoona is not a unique stage name either, it's a common name in Korea and a shortened form of her full name, as applicable too many other K-pop idols.--TerryAlex (talk) 20:46, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- @TerryAlex: This move request, which I started, is only to recognize Yoona's correct English surname. I have no objection to any reasonable article title as long as Yoona's correct English surname is recognized. GeT RiGhT (talk) 20:59, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- There is no "correct" or "wrong" name here, "임" can be freely romanized into both Im or Lim, its just a preference and the general media has decided to go with "Im" since 2008, if the name would be really wrong then her agency would probably requested that the non-korean media starts using her "correct" name, but no one ever cared about her name until recently when some allegedly ID card has been leaked (which can as well be fake, and according to her picture its probably over 10 years old) Snowflake91 (talk) 21:37, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Snowflake91: I use words cautiously. "Lim" is correct because it is what appears on her passport photo, which, albeit unreliable, there is no more reason to suspect to be fake than genuine. GeT RiGhT (talk) 21:43, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- @GeT RiGhT: The picture is under no circumstances enough to move the article, if it would be uploaded by some reliable media then maybe, but this was uploaded on a photobucket by an anonymous user. See Image, I can fix that myself and claim that it is genuine. Snowflake91 (talk) 21:56, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Snowflake91:@TerryAlex: This is grueling. My original stance on Yoona's English surname and the proper article title if her surname must be used in the title is unchanged; most of my arguments written above still hold despite all this digression. But I do not own Wikipedia and there could still be consensus without me. Feel free to ignore me or my arguments; in general, do as you please. GeT RiGhT (talk) 22:59, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- @GeT RiGhT: The picture is under no circumstances enough to move the article, if it would be uploaded by some reliable media then maybe, but this was uploaded on a photobucket by an anonymous user. See Image, I can fix that myself and claim that it is genuine. Snowflake91 (talk) 21:56, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Snowflake91: I use words cautiously. "Lim" is correct because it is what appears on her passport photo, which, albeit unreliable, there is no more reason to suspect to be fake than genuine. GeT RiGhT (talk) 21:43, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- There is no "correct" or "wrong" name here, "임" can be freely romanized into both Im or Lim, its just a preference and the general media has decided to go with "Im" since 2008, if the name would be really wrong then her agency would probably requested that the non-korean media starts using her "correct" name, but no one ever cared about her name until recently when some allegedly ID card has been leaked (which can as well be fake, and according to her picture its probably over 10 years old) Snowflake91 (talk) 21:37, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- I would prefer the current full name, she is never addressed simply as "Yoona", there is always word "Girls' generation's" before her name, see 1, 2, 3, 4 etc., so if you want the common name, you should rename the article to Girls' Geneartion's Yoona (if that makes any sense), and not Yoona Snowflake91 (talk) 19:48, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- The point is as an individual, her acting career is more significant/notable where her full name is credited. That is why she has her individual page gets created as opposed to merely being a member of the girl group. She has very limited individual singing projects, most of her singing work are with Girls' Generation. There would be no point in having her individual article if it was not for her acting career. She might be known as Yoona of Girls' Generation, but also Im Yoon-ah as the actress. Im or Lim, Yoon-ah or Yoona is just Hangul romanization variations; they all are the same Korean characters. GeT RiGhT and Snowflake91, you really think moving the article title to Yoona is correct? Teemeah, can you offer your opinion on this one as well?--TerryAlex (talk) 18:47, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- It doesn't need to "stick in the long-term". We should go with what reliable secondary sources commonly use now. If those sources change their usage in the future, it can be addressed at that time. — AjaxSmack 18:42, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: It's complicated (in K-pop). Essentially, Yoon-ah and Yoona are basically the same; they both come from the Korean characters 윤아. Yoona (or Yoon-ah) just happen to be a common name in Korea (unlike unique names like Madonna or Beyoncé). And Im is becoming more known for her filmography work. I know a lot of sources currently refer to her as Girls' Generation's Yoona, but anyone who is familiar with the band knows that Im has a more significant acting career compared to singing; and she is likely to continue to do so, where her full name is used. There are confusions because for Korean culture, there are still fewer English translation sources compared to original Korean sources; but her full name (for filmography) is mentioned in Korean articles like this [3] or [4]. There has also been discussions on moving back and forth the article titles for other Girls' Generation's members such as Talk:Choi Soo-young or Talk:Kim_Tae-yeon/Archive_1 where their full names are now the current titles (I'm most familiar with Girls' Generation that's why I tend to cite their past discussions). I know Yoona is the primary topic for Im (that's why I said it would be a redirect for this page). It might sound like I'm babbling here, but moving the article to Yoona won't stick in the long-term.--TerryAlex (talk) 15:40, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- You've provided no evidence they are ever referred to as simply "Yoona". But regardless of that, you can clearly see by page views that this article would be the primary topic anyway. Jenks24 (talk) 12:00, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Their first names are exactly the same though. Technically, all three can be known as both first name and full name. Im Yoon-ah and Song Yoon-ah were recently in a drama together and some news articles even refer to them as Senior Yoona and Junior Yoona. I now don't think moving it to "Yoona" is an option. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC would apply to the term as a redirect.--TerryAlex (talk) 03:03, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- They are not known simply as Yoona, though. — AjaxSmack 02:50, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose: I see a problem with moving it to Yoona. There are few other celebrities with the same first name: Kim Yoon-ah, Oh Yoon-ah and Song Yoon-ah. Perhaps, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC might apply for the term. Her last name, whether Im or Lim, distinguishes her from the other two celebrities.--TerryAlex (talk) 18:49, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
- Move to Yoona per AjaxSmack. The evidence suggests that this is both the common name, and also a primary topic for the term, so by policy, is the best title. — Amakuru (talk) 14:32, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: For her more significant acting work compared to singing, moving it to Yoona won't stick. See my comments above.--TerryAlex (talk) 16:26, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- oppose this is ridiculous already. Im is the proper Revised Romanization transliteration of her surname. Lim is a wrong form in any case. Teemeah 편지 (letter) 17:31, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Teemeah: Your objection of "proper transliteration," mindlessly appealing as it is, has been raised several times in the discussion. Read what I have written in response above. GeT RiGhT (talk) 20:59, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Support There is an instagram account with 5.6 million followers in the name @yoona__lim. It would appear at a glance to be hers (though I could be wrong). If that's the name she uses for her own account, that's clearly the name Wikipedia should use for her. Basically, we should be looking for her own opinion on this, not trying to parse out a set of divided third-party references in which WP itself has almost certainly been an important factor. Homunq (࿓) 17:31, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Since when is it instagram more reliable than highly-reliable published sources like newspapers etc.? So, because Kim Tae-yeon has instagram account named @taeyeon_ss, does that mean we can move article to SS Taeyeon or? There is no confirmation that this "Lim" in her username is actually her last name, its unreliable; also, the account is probably managed by her staff and not by herself Snowflake91 (talk) 17:49, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- It's not a matter of instagram versus newspapers, it's a matter of something which can reasonably assumed to be with her consent versus something foreign-language sources publish without her knowledge. Also, there is no debate whatsoever that either "Lim" or "Im" would be acceptable Roman orthographies, so it would be pretty ridiculous to say that the "Lim" in her username could be unrelated. Homunq (࿓) 20:24, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Since when is it instagram more reliable than highly-reliable published sources like newspapers etc.? So, because Kim Tae-yeon has instagram account named @taeyeon_ss, does that mean we can move article to SS Taeyeon or? There is no confirmation that this "Lim" in her username is actually her last name, its unreliable; also, the account is probably managed by her staff and not by herself Snowflake91 (talk) 17:49, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Support move to Lim Yoona. Second choice Yoona. I had a look at reliabe sources and it is clearly divided. However, it should be noted that there is an obvious bias towards "Im Yoona" due to the effect of the Wikipedia article. If I look at reliable sources in Korean, it is almost 50-50. When it is evenly divided, we need to look at other factors such as the subject's preference and social media accounts. That tips my opinion in favour of Lim Yoona. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 04:58, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Revised Romanization does not mean that name is reliably credited (if so the popular name "Kim Tae-yeon" should be renamed to "Gim Tae-yeon" or "Jessica Jung" to "Jessica Jeong"). Note that there is a difference between RR and credited names on Korean media outlets (소녀시대 Sonyeo Sidae vs. So Nyuh Shi Dae). Suggest move to Yoona as it is her common stage name — Simon (talk) 14:56, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment It seems there will never be a proper consensus on this. We will always have split opinions. It comes down to the spelling she is being most associated with, "Im", (Just like how it is Kim Tae-yeon and not Gim Tae-yeon) or her supposed preferred spelling according to her Instagram account. Note that the "L" in Lim is supposed to be silent as it has more to do with the Chinese roots character, so either way it is still pronounced "Im". I want to stay neutral regarding the Im vs Lim, but have strong opposition towards moving it to Yoona, due to the reasons I stated above. Another issue is: even if we move the article title to "Yoona", the first sentence of her article will still be "Im Yoon-ah (born May 30, 1990), better known by the mononym Yoona, is a..." (just like other articles with unique names such as Seohyun or D.O.); therefore, the issue we still have to figure out is whether to use the spelling "Im" or "Lim". Moving it to "Yoona" will not solve the problem.--TerryAlex (talk) 17:20, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support move to Lim Yoona. Hong Gil-dong is an old-fashioned practice. According to the current trends, South Koreans use Hong Gildong. There is s:ko:국어의 로마자 표기법 (Revised Romanization of Korean) published by National Institute of Korean Language under Government of South Korea. Article 4 of Chapter 3 names their formal names Hong Gildong. Sawol (talk) 10:20, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- Even if the argument that "Hong Gil-dong is an old-fashioned practice" holds, I think this part says 제2항 발음상 혼동의 우려가 있을 때에는 음절 사이에 붙임표(-)를 쓸 수 있다, which translates to "Clause 2 - When there is a concern about pronunciation confusion, a syllable (-) can be written between syllables"? In this case, Yoona can be either Yoon-ah or Yoo-nah, so a hyphen is necessary as I have explained in the previous discussion.--TerryAlex (talk) 15:01, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- I hope that you distinguish between '- should be written' (쓴다 or 써야 한다) and '- can be written' (쓸 수 있다). Why do Jungang Line, Bangudae Petroglyphs, Seun Sangga, Haeundae District not use a hyphen (-)? Sawol (talk) 15:49, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- How do you explain Yoon-ah vs Yoo-nah? I think this is about common sense, rather than applying any rules. We have to think about the non-Korean readers in general. Besides, we have three other celebrities with the same first name: Kim Yoon-ah, Oh Yoon-ah and Song Yoon-ah. The issue is whether it's Im or Lim. --TerryAlex (talk) 15:56, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- Your idea has defects. You did not comprehend Article 2 of Chapter 3. Article 2 of Chapter 3 is for Jung-ang 중앙 vs Jun-gang 준강. Bangudae is confused whether 반구대 or 방우대. Seun Sangga 세운상가 or 슨상가. Haeundae 해운대 or 하은대. Yun-a 윤아 and Yu-na 유나 are pronounced with Yuna absolutely identical. Yun-a, Yu-na and Yuna are exactly the same in the Roman alphabet although 윤아 and 유나 are made a distinction in Hangul. Romanization is based on standard Korean pronunciation. Sawol (talk) 16:24, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sawol, I don't want to be off-topic and I know you are a strong advocate for the hyphen removal, but Yoon-ah (윤아) and Yoo-nah (유나) are two completely different names and should be distinguished. And, if that is the case, why bother with the "L" in Lim when that letter is supposed to be silent? I will quote Jaewon's comment here: (this is the comment that changed my opinion since I was the editor who requested for the hyphen removal in that Taeyeon's discussion)
- Let's think about those who are not familiar with the Korean language and are struggling to pronounce names.
(2) When there is the possibility of confusion in pronunciation, a hyphen '-' may be used.
— The National Institute of the Korean Language
- And if the rules were changed to having all names to exclude the hyphen, how many are willing to do all the moving? I'm sure when the Korean naming conventions were created, the hyphen for given names was long talked about before implementing it.--TerryAlex (talk) 17:37, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- Let's think about those who are not familiar with the Korean language and are struggling to pronounce names.
- Sawol, I don't want to be off-topic and I know you are a strong advocate for the hyphen removal, but Yoon-ah (윤아) and Yoo-nah (유나) are two completely different names and should be distinguished. And, if that is the case, why bother with the "L" in Lim when that letter is supposed to be silent? I will quote Jaewon's comment here: (this is the comment that changed my opinion since I was the editor who requested for the hyphen removal in that Taeyeon's discussion)
- Your idea has defects. You did not comprehend Article 2 of Chapter 3. Article 2 of Chapter 3 is for Jung-ang 중앙 vs Jun-gang 준강. Bangudae is confused whether 반구대 or 방우대. Seun Sangga 세운상가 or 슨상가. Haeundae 해운대 or 하은대. Yun-a 윤아 and Yu-na 유나 are pronounced with Yuna absolutely identical. Yun-a, Yu-na and Yuna are exactly the same in the Roman alphabet although 윤아 and 유나 are made a distinction in Hangul. Romanization is based on standard Korean pronunciation. Sawol (talk) 16:24, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- How do you explain Yoon-ah vs Yoo-nah? I think this is about common sense, rather than applying any rules. We have to think about the non-Korean readers in general. Besides, we have three other celebrities with the same first name: Kim Yoon-ah, Oh Yoon-ah and Song Yoon-ah. The issue is whether it's Im or Lim. --TerryAlex (talk) 15:56, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- I hope that you distinguish between '- should be written' (쓴다 or 써야 한다) and '- can be written' (쓸 수 있다). Why do Jungang Line, Bangudae Petroglyphs, Seun Sangga, Haeundae District not use a hyphen (-)? Sawol (talk) 15:49, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: Okay so Yoon-ah is 윤아 and Yoo-nah is 유나, which is completely irrelevant in this situation as we already know the Hangul of this individual's given name. Yoona's family name is 임 which translates directly as Im. Without a valid source the family name should remain to be considered this. Although with this in mind, 임 is also commonly translated as Lim, occasionaly Yim and very rarely Rim, therefore these should also be taken into account. Yoona herself regards her surname to be Lim as can be seen on her Instagram profile (https://www.instagram.com/yoona__lim/), of course this may not be considered a source and in that case, or in my opinion this article should remain Im Yoon-ah. I also do not think it is suitable for the article to be moved into either Yoona or Yoon-ah (or anything of that sort) as there are other just as notable individuals on Wikipedia with the same name. I say this with an exception of Yoona (singer) which I see suitable. Abdotorg (talk) 16:20, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- As Im is both a singer and actress, Yoona (entertainer) might be more applicable, but then because Yoona is a common Korean name and there are other celebrities with the same name, I find it unsuitable too.--TerryAlex (talk) 16:47, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ah yes of course, I see what you mean! I was just putting it in the context of fellow bandmate Sunny. Abdotorg (talk) 17:17, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well, first of all, Sunny is a unique stage name. Second, she has involved in singing as a part of Girls' Generation as well as in musical, which also involves music, so there is nothing controversial about that. But we all know, Im, along with some other GG members such as Choi Soo-young and Kwon Yu-ri, has a more notable acting career as an individual, so naming her "singer" is quite misleading, in my opinion.--TerryAlex (talk) 17:48, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ah yes of course, I see what you mean! I was just putting it in the context of fellow bandmate Sunny. Abdotorg (talk) 17:17, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- As Im is both a singer and actress, Yoona (entertainer) might be more applicable, but then because Yoona is a common Korean name and there are other celebrities with the same name, I find it unsuitable too.--TerryAlex (talk) 16:47, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Merger proposal
Formal request has been received to merge List of awards and nominations received by Im Yoon-ah into Im Yoon-ah; dated: December 2017. Proposer's Rationale: could be moved into the section on the actress's page for this info. Discuss here. Richard3120 (talk) 17:02, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose List has a substantial number of awards that seems too long for main article (44 if I have counted correct) Alexanderlee (talk) 17:30, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose There are more than enough awards to have an own article. Snowflake91 (talk) 18:51, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
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