Talk:Imam Shamil

Untitled

Shamil is a really interesting person, and I think that this article really should be expanded and subdivided into different headings. I'm thinking about his origins (I don't know too much about this), his rise to power in the late 1830s, the height of his power in the 40s, the Crimean War and stagnation, and finally defeat and captivity. If no one has any serious objections to expanding the article on Shamil, I'll start the expansion. --The PNM 05:28, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Shamil's Nigun

This is probably the same Shamil mentioned in the talks of the Lubavitcher Rebbe:

A story is told of a man named Shamil, a leader of the Georgian tribes that lived in Russia's Caucasian Mountains over a century ago. The Russian army attacked the Georgians, intending to deprive them of their freedom. Unable to vanquish the valiant Georgians in battle, the Russian army leaders proposed a false peace treaty, and thus succeeded in getting them to lay down their arms. Immediately afterwards, the Russians lured the Georgian leader, Shamil, away from his stronghold and imprisoned him.

Exiled and helpless, Shamil yearned for his earlier freedom and fortune. He consoled himself with the knowledge that he would eventually be released and returned to his former position with even more power and glory. His ardent yearning was expressed in a sad yet hopeful song.

Chassidim sing Shamil's melody because its true story is an allegory for the chronicles of the soul. Each soul descends into this world from the heavens, clothed in the body of a human being. Its physical garments, in a sense, are its prison cell, for it constantly longs for the spiritual freedom and fulfillment it knew. It strives to liberate itself from the "exile" of the human body by directing the body's physical activity into the path of Torah and mitzvos, anticipating the time when it will leave this world behind and once again ascend into the lofty spiritual realms.

The Shamil nigun can be listened to from there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.66.224.173 (talk) 07:29, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Sichos Kodesh of the Rebbe, Simchas Torah, 5719

need references

I just read five different biographies of Shamil, and the one given here is not similar to any of the ones i read. Since he was a local hero it is very hard to find a NPOV text about him, but i still doubt that the one given here is NPOV. References should be given to either make sure that the given information is correct, or to at least give the source of information so that we can see whose POV this is. For instance i find it hard to believe that his sons became Russian army officials, since they were notorious because of their very long war against the Russians. Other sources i found say that they became officers of the Ottoman army, which makes much more sense.SYS64738 09:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Shamil had 5 sons: two served tzar, two served sultan and one died young. Abolen 15:52, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I still need to see the references to believe that, not only because this idea seems even unlikelier, but also since the objectivity is very hard to achieve regarding historical heroes. There are at least three different stories on the internet about his sons. All should be mentioned and referenced.SYS64738 20:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Sure, sure. But historical heroes are onе thing, and well-documented army service that ended less than 100 years ago is other thing. Here's biografy of Shamil by Shapi Quaziev (in Russian): Imam Shamil (Hardcopy: ISBN 5-235-02290-4) Abolen 23:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)~

You might want to check out Moshe Gammer's Muslim Resistance to the Tsar. More historical detail than you can shake a stick at.Eva Luna 01:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Would pictures of them in Russian uniform in St Petersburg do? Seriously, his sons' carreers are very well-documented. AllenHansen (talk) 11:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Additional request for references for the following Shamil while in Russian captivity apparently adopted the line of the Tsar and said that his "compatriots" (many of whom never were loyal to him in the first place, especially the Chechens) should stop fighting as it was pointless. The fight continued, however, as Chechens and Avars dismissed his advice and continued to fight for a couple more years. Shamil's memory now varies from group to group. Among some of the groups that he had considered part of his Imamate (whether they wanted to be part of it or not), like the Chechens, he is regarded as a man who merely went for power, good because he fought the Russia well, but good for nothing else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.28.160 (talk) 01:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

The Avar

I just made a small change to the photo caption, since Shamil was in no way a Chechen. He is generally agreed to be an Avar from what is now Dagestan. A popular myth has grown around his 'Chechen-ness' since the current conflicts began in the 1990s.

---

I agree that this site needs more references. I am unable to find that Shamil went to Mecca in 1828. I am not disputing that this actually happened, I am just unable to find a scholarly source.

There are no sources as such, but it is generaly accepted. AllenHansen (talk) 11:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

About Baussungur

Stop with chechenian legends about Bayssungur!

Bayssungur from teyp Benoy (teyp of modern chechenian Kadyrov-kollaborants) was NO in Ghunib and NO ONE chechenian was in Ghunib. "Chechenian Warriors in Ghinib" is chechenian Legende--80.237.35.174 09:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No-no, it's not legend! Many historians write about it. For example, Shapiev Kazi, Runovsky (he lived in 19 century and was a sign with Shamil), D.Hozhaev etc.

I can't find a scholarly reference that supports Shamil going to Mecca in 1828. I am not disputing this fact- I just think this needs to be referenced by a scholarly source.

I am going to delete the Abdel Kadir connection. It seems unlikely. a) Abdel Kadir at the time of the meeting didn't have any military knowledge to pass on, as a 20 year old, to the much older more military savvy Shamil. 2) There is no record of Shamil going to Mecca in 1828.

However, Leslie Blanch (in The Sabres of Paradise) writes: "Although it has never been established that Shamyl made a first pilgrimate to Mecca about this time, there is little doubt that he did so, and that he met there Abd-el-Kadir, the fanatic Arab Chieftain, who performed the Hadj in 1828-9. Together these two probably planned their resistance to the Infidel invaders, as part of a widespread Pan Islamic movement." I don't know what Blanch's sources for this are, but it is a widely held view. Certainly later correspondence between Shamyl and abd al Qadir shows a sense of familiarity, and both are photographed together (with the Egyptian Khedive Ismail Pasha) at the time of the opening of the Suez canal. Some versions of the story of this first meeting of Shamyl and abd al Qadir have them together in Damascus as well as in Mecca. And it is known that abd al Qadir took his 'bayat' with the Naqshbandi shaykh Mawlana Khalid in Damascus at this time. Shamyl was, of course, a Naqshbandi (later to become a shaykh of the Naqshbandiyya), and some of Mawlana Khalid's khalifas fought alongside him in the Caucasus. It seems unlikely that, if the two had met at this time, they had talked (as Blanch suggests) about Jihad - it is far more likely that they talked about their respective experiences of the Sufi way. Abd al Qadir had been invested with the Akbarian Khirqa (the mantle of the great Sufi Ibn al-'Arabi) by his father, and his visit to Damascus was also to pay his respects to the 'shaykh al akbar'. Mawlana Khalid lived close to Ibn al-'Arabi's tomb in the Salihiyya quarter of the city, and was also known to have an affiliation to the shaykh.

Chechen politician

I have removed the category 'Chechen politician' from this article. Imam Shamil was born in Gimry, Dagestan, so if he should be listed as a politician at all, he should be listed as a Dagestani politician. Feel free to let me know what you think about this. ForrestSjap 15:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Photo: Shamil and his sons

Hi, the caption of the photo is totally wrong. Shamil doesn't even appear on the photo. The russian old cyrillic writings on the top tell who the people are. From left to right: Gazi Muhammad's confident, murid Hajio; Shamil's son Muhammad-Shafi; Shamil's sons-in-law: Abdurrahim and Abdurrahman. The biggest caption (bottom) says "Shamil's family". And it says it's a photo (so not a painting by Vassily Tim) and that it was taken in 1860 (so not 1859) in Kaluga (so not St. Petersburg). Would someone please make sure this is corrected (it's been ages I've last edited wikipedia..)

kazim (from az.wikipedia (account doesn't seem to be valid here..)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.236.79.170 (talk) 00:43, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, I finally did it myself. =kazim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.66.203.17 (talk) 17:00, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Whose wife was later kidnapped by Imam Shamil

From the article 'Crimean War', 'Caucasus theatre' section:

"This was Prince Ellico Orbeliani whose wife was later kidnapped by Imam Shamil at Tsinandali."

Does anyone have any knowledge of this? Should something perhaps be included here? Heavenlyblue (talk) 03:05, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Imagining a Chechen military aristocracy: the story of the Georgian princesses held hostage by Shamil: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02634930410001310535?journalCode=ccas20 Heavenlyblue (talk) 05:02, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

A Georgian Princess (Monthly Packet) [A dramatieation] Pages 62-69, 162-169, 260-267, etc.: https://books.google.ca/books?id=gXk3AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=Prince+Ellico+Orbeliani&source=bl&ots=JuLfn6EleD&sig=OHYQNyePPyE3Vfs0B2yGQD4hgB0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXxu7rrfrcAhVrHTQIHfgMAP4Q6AEwA3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Prince%20Ellico%20Orbeliani&f=false Heavenlyblue (talk) 05:02, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

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Descent and non-English language sources

I see solid sources not in English about the descent of the Imam are deleted. Please explain why with links to the rules, precedents. Now it seems the follower editors of the article are somehow biased. English language can't cover even a fraction of this topic and this rule seems strange, until explained at least. It's like forbidding to support the history of Portugal with Portuguese sources or allowing to support the history of Indonesia in English only. LouisAragon, please help if you can.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 05:35, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Arsenekoumyk I have restored the material. Its deletion was not in line with policy.--Calthinus (talk) 14:28, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Хаджимурад, the question is discussed here, please raise your concerns and do not remove sources with information from the article like you did here.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 09:54, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Хаджимурад I'm asking you again to stop vandalizing the article and pay attention here.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 06:05, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Хаджимурад, stop edit warring and vandalism

User:Хаджимурад please skip this article next time you want to vandalize it. quotes are given, sources are given. stop wasting time of other editors. or if you want to continue do it in a wikipedia way, here on talk page.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 18:18, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

• Sources do not say anything about the Kumyk origin of the family of Imam Shamil. Next time, please quote from the source before vandalizing the article. — Хаджимурад (talk) 22:10, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • quote is given along with the source, next time open your eyes before vandalizing. Quote: "fifth ancestor — Kumyk Amir-khan, a man very famous in Caucasus", given in the article--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 07:31, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
    • The source says only about one ancestor of Shamil. And it is not entirely clear on the male or female line. In any case, this does not mean that his whole family was of Kumyk origin. — Хаджимурад (talk) 21:55, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
      • Хаджимурад, you either lied or misguide readers of your edit, source clearly states paternal ancestry, and then goes to maternal ancestry. also refer to dictionary if you aren't not aware of what "ancestry-descendent" means, please.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 05:57, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
        • Where is it written that this is a paternal ancestor and where is it written that the Shamil family was of Kumyk origin? I'm waiting for a quote. — Хаджимурад (talk) 15:15, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
          • "Shamil's father was Muhammad son of Ali from Gimri, and fifth ancestor — Kumyk Amir-khan, a man very famous in Caucasus. Shamil's mother was of Avar tribe. Her father was Pir-Budag, granddad Amir-Ali, and great-grandfather — Mantash, famous in the entire Dagestan."--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 16:50, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

• I'm finding the first paragraph of the "Family and early life" section very confusing. Is the dispute over whether his ethnicity is "Kumyk" or not? (Which "Tatar" seems to be a synonym for?) And that sources 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 each confirm this fact? ST47 (talk) 00:05, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
  • ST47 General modern understanding is that he's from a "tribe" or "society" which is presently a part of Avar ethnicity (Koysubuli society), because he was born in Gimry settlement. Many sources quote his words about his Kumyk ancestry (Kumyk Amir-khan) though. He spoke both languages, preferred Kumyk talking to his wifes, and once known to call himself a Tatar, never called himself either Avar or Kumyk. So the sources were added to demonstrate his ancestry along with Avar ethnicity, however some do not like it because they see it, I suppose, somehow shameful, that the principal Avar hero is of Kumyk ancestry. For that reason the vandal tries to remove any mention of "Kumyk", not caring to even remove the sources and quote for that mention.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 08:08, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
  • ST47 in this thread it was ruled that removing these sources and information is against policies, however the user in question tries to remove it since April 2019, and came to talk page after the third call only, but still continued removing the information again and again without any consensus reached. So I don't even see a dispute here, but signs of ideological vandalism--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 08:14, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
    • That sounds reasonable. I obviously can't read most of the references, but I see the text you refer to in reference 3, and reference 7 with him calling himself Tatar. Хаджимурад, do you have anything to add to help us understand your position? ST47 (talk) 18:34, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
      • Have you read the first source? It says that the ancestor of Shamil was called Kumyk-Amir-Khan. Firstly, it is not clear whether it is a name or nationality. Secondly, this is only one person, not the whole family. Explain then why the article says that the whole family of Shamil was of Kumyk origin? As for the second source, the Tatars used to call all Muslims or Asians in Russia, I can provide sources if necessary. This word has no relation to the origin of Shamil, therefore this source is out of place there. You are simply misled, understand this. — Хаджимурад (talk) 00:12, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
        • Хаджимурад, the source I gave clearly states "Kumyk Amir-khan", I translated it word for word without changing punctuation marks (original text — "а пятый предок — Кумык Амир-Хан" 1859), there is another source - Chichagova, who met Shamil, but it's not even given in the article yet. Kumyk as a name is your OR, as well as about Tatars, because I gave two modern sources confirming the version about Kumyk ethnical ancestry — Bliev, Khalilov, and Khalilov with Idrisov. they do not say it's a name, it is your invention. also, if an ancestor of the British queen is German, it does not mean she is German already, it means her direct ancestor is German. so please don't worry, there is nothing shameful about it. genetically, we all have the same ancestor and you don't have to be so militant about "clear Avar blood" or whatever you are passionate about here.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 19:46, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
        • pardon me, 3 modern sources--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 19:47, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
          • In this case, write as in the source that Shamil’s ancestor was Kumyk-Amir-Khan. Does someone bother you to write like this? As for the Queen of England, your example is not successful. From the fact that the ancestor of the English queen was German, neither she nor her family ceases to be English. — Хаджимурад (talk) 00:18, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
            • Хаджимурад, 1) doesn't bother at all, it's written exactly as in the source given, 2) about the queen, that's what I meant precisely ;), you've got problem with understanding English. Arsenekoumyk (talk) 03:51, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

ST47 I don't know what he wants from me any more. seems useless to write anything --Arsenekoumyk (talk) 07:10, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Shamil was not a Kumyk. He was an Avar, he just had one Kumyk ancestor, compared to all his other Avar ancestors. I see this edit war has been going on. And I have to side with @Хаджимурад: on this one. Signed, ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 07:57, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

hello. your personal opinion is irrelevant, sources are.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 08:05, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Exactly my point. Thanks for repeating it. While you may think he is Kumyk because he had 1 Kumyk relative... that is not how it works. Signed, ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 12:09, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't know why you're twisting article's content, but — sources are given to what they are given, word for word, and speculations are irrelevant--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 13:58, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Your name literally has "Koumyk" in it, and you are trying to show an important figure as a Kumyk when he -yes, as a matter of fact,- wasn't. Who is twisting here? And for the record - nobody is speculating here, I am just stating a commonly known fact, that 1 relative who is Kumyk does not make you Kumyk, if we worked here in Wikipedia with such gibberish logic, a lot would have to change. Wassalam. Signed, ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 14:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

yes it has, and yours has adig, what's the problem? also, see sources. sources matter in defining what is "gibberish" and what's not.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 14:27, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

unlike your personal view of the matter, which is irrelevant, again--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 14:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

The problem is, if a source says that this banana is %25 orange, that does not mean we will say it has orange origins. It is a banana that has some orange in it. What's so hard to understand? Plus... your sources aren't even properly cited. Signed, ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 14:55, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

well. I tried to understand your point, but all I get is banana-related :) please mention me when you have structured points and arguments--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 14:58, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Now you are making fun of my hypothetical example? Ok. We totally need a meditator, someone who doesn't know us, because you are living in another dimension. Signed, ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 17:05, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Edit warring from Zandxo

Zandxo, you've already been blocked for edit warring in Uchar-hadji article. Now you're starting here. Please be constructive and start discussing, and please seek consensus first.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 16:24, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I don't NEED YOUR CONSENSUS, you are constantly lying. There is one source, one source that Imam Shamils father is of Kumyk origin, and that one source is being used in all the sources you have provided. Also, I have NOT CHANGED anything besides clarifying that according to ONE source his father is of Kumyk origin. You are stealing peoples history. --Zandxo (talk) 18:45, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

4 sources are given. if that's the problem, then everything is "based on sources". there is 0 source that he is avar, so what?--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 18:50, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

All 4 sources go back to the same source. Both of his parents are known, both are Avar, speak Avar and come from an Avar village. I am clarifying that his fathers ancestor is a Kumyk ACCORDING to that one source. --Zandxo (talk) 19:02, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

thank you for your comment! please be patient. firstly, there are 2 contemporary sources, not one, if you study more carefully the topic. "both of his parents are known", so what? there is a discussion about their ancestry. why didn't you write "according to some sources, which are not based on contemporary sources, and which are not given in this article, Shamil is Avar...". why did you start adding things to Kumyk part only? are you on some kind of anti-kumyk spiteful crusade here? what are you purposes? why didn't you extend Chechen version in Uchar-hadji article, which I by the way created myself! why are you shouting about Sala-uzdens when you know perfectly that Chechens didn't have that social class at all? why did you start hysterical edit warring? are you going to turn your editing creed into some kind of positive activity? --Arsenekoumyk (talk) 19:10, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

This is a joke, right? You are the one spreading Kumyk fantasies here. The info that his family is Avar was already given, I simply made clear that the theory that his family is of Kumyk origin is according to ONE source and nothing proven. Again with the victimising, Arsen krasavchik. I did extend the Chechen version in the Uchar-hadji article, I clarified that Gerzel-Aul was fully Chechen during that time and simply subordinated to Kumyk princes. Chechens didn't have those classes yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the Sala-Uzden are of Chechen origin from the Teyp Vashindaroy and related to the Chechens that live in Dagestan. --Zandxo (talk) 19:15, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

no, you did not. clarify. actually Gerzel-awul was insied "Kumyk possession" at that time, but it has nothing to do with your insults.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 19:58, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

The presence of Russian backed up Kumyk princes doesn't change the Chechen population of the village. Unlike you, I have been to Gerzel-Aul (including having relatives that live there). Where have I insulted you? --Zandxo (talk) 20:51, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I just checked what you consider "insults" lol. Calling you by your nickname is an insult? Calling things out as nationalistic is an insult? You're obviously more than just biased, the things you claim are going into the nationalistic direction, it's not meant as an insult in any way. --Zandxo (talk) 21:09, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I said krasavchik, which basically means "nice man". How is that an insult? Are you being serious? I thought you speak Russian, how come you needed a translator for that? --Zandxo (talk) 21:11, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

your familiarity is insulting--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 10:18, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

calling someone nationalist on wiki can lead to permanent ban--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 10:19, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

I am not insulting you, you are simply victimizing yourself (once again). You stated things that are common among Kumyk nationalists. --Zandxo (talk) 16:40, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

furiosity and blind chechen-centric nature of your edits is apparent. dispute resolution and a mediator is the only way to reach consensus with you.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 06:13, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Newspapers for Sources

hi, Adigabrek there is no consensus on your last addition of sources. there are plenty of good sources saying his family was from Avar (Koysubuly) society. your newspapers as sources degrade article's quality. please add good sources. tuskish newspapers are reverted--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 14:39, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• also please give arguments why Adygha name should be present--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 14:41, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• same goes to Azerbaijani name. removed until solid argument is given--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 14:42, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

They are temporary additions because you were shouting about hoe Avar has no sources... I have books about Shamil as well, and I'll cite them.

you start to sound biased. also, Avar point even does not need sources as it's "widely accepted" by most of the newspapers. Kumyk ancestry (not ethnicity but ancestry, contrary to what you've stated in your previous edits) should come with source. also please don't refer to me with such terms as "shout" as you did twice already, otherwise it might be considered that you reflect your own disposition on my words. if you refer to me in that way, we'll be able to talk only via mediators.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 15:07, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

You are shouting about how "Adyghe name is irrelevant" while the Turkish name, totally unrelated, is there. Shamil is important for Circassians as well, he was important for the entire north caucasus.

well, Shamil is very famous in Turkey and has many thousands of mentions in Turkish sources. if you think Turkish name is irrelevant, you may take it out until argument is given to the contrary. I don't have objections.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 15:07, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

And yes, he was Avar, with 1 Kumyk grandparent. Period.Signed, ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 14:57, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

although it's not said he's Kumyk in the article, and you've seen smth which is not there, do you have any source from him or his contemporaries saying he's an Avar? --Arsenekoumyk (talk) 15:07, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

He was an Avar with a Kumyk grandfather on his mother's side... You are just making this a bigger deal than it is and insisting that it is worded like you want it to be (probably because you are Kumyk and you want him to be shown as a Kumyk), while having a Kumyk grandfather (on mother side) does not make you Kumyk origin. BUT, I have made sure to state he had a Kumyk grandfather. What's the problem? This has lasted longer than it should. The North Caucasians should back each other in enviroments like these, not engage in conflicts. Wassalam. Signed, ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 15:53, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

you're confused. the article contains sources about his father's side. below i gave another source on his mother's side too, but you rushed to take it as an additional argument. analysis before judgement would be useful :) --Arsenekoumyk (talk) 21:19, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

"that it is worded like you want it to be" — it's exactly as in the sources. also, mind that there are no sources where he calls himself avar or kumyk directly, he positioned himself as a muslim leader. all we have is his statement in two sources about his paternal ancestor and where he calls himself a "tatar", he also spoke avar as well as kumyk amongst his family. so there is no need to prove anything to anyone, all we've got to do is present all of it on wikipedia.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 21:24, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I didn't even read what you sent below, before this, that is. I've heard from at least 978 quadrillion Kumyks that he was a Kumyk from mother side, I am a Caucasian, you don't have to tell me this, nor do you have to try and act all-smart with such attitude, I've seen so many Kumyk ultranationalists saying exact same things as you. Plus -- this one source does not mean it should be taken as a fact by the article, it can be presented as a claim, and you are the only one who can judge this source as the only speaker of russian here, and you are clearly biased to the Kumyk-side, as you are a Kumyk. Stating he was Avar-Kumyk is just the best thing to do in this situation. Wassalam. Signed, ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 21:35, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

great. let's be done with this waste of time with no argument at all.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 07:46, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

One more source about mother's side

According to some contemporary authors his mother was from an Avar family of Ashilta village [Дадаев Ю. У. По тропам шамилевских сражений: историко-документальная повесть. — Мх.: Юпитер, 1997. — С. 106. — 248 с. 19], according to others — Kumyk [Рамазан Абдулатипов. Родники разума и души ; Люди моей судьбы : в 2 кн. Ляссе.].

In time this line might be added, however I don't see it as important.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 15:15, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Imam Shamil... and his alleged ancestors...

... arguing whether he was a kumyk, avar, or whatever he was - guys, he primarly was a muslim alhamdulIllah. If nationalist avars like some brothers here get triggered by the fact that one of his ancestors was apparently kumyk - imagine how "useful" you would be during Imam Shamil's struggle against the russian empire. Turks are not unknown to the caucasian mountains - there happened admixture to some extent, this is not a dishonour, neither for you, nor for turks, get along with each other, or kadyrow is just the beginning.

{The believers are but one brotherhood, so make peace between your brothers. And be mindful of Allah so you may be shown mercy.} - Surah 49 Ayah 10 — Preceding unsigned comment added by BergamottenTee (talk • contribs) 05:13, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Doubtful Kumyk "ancestry"

Due to the fact that Imam Shamils Kumyk ancestry is highly doubtful and nothing certain I would suggest changing "Imam Shamil was born in 1797, to an Avar Muslim family[3][4][5][6][7] of Kumyk descent" to "Imam Shamil was born in 1917 to an Avar Muslim family, which according to some sources are of Kumyk descent". It is also important in my opinion to note that 2 of the 3 sources are by the Kumyk historian Arslan Magomedsoltanovich Khalilov, therefore I also suggest adding "according to some sources, especially Kumyk, is of Kumyk descent". The following 3 user (User:Shuginubi, User:Adigabrek, User:Хаджимурад) had already raised concerns about this paragraph and tried seeking consensus on the talk page but were encountered by the questionable argumentation of now blocked User:Arsenekoumyk. ~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 19:04, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

disagree. kumyk ancestry might be doubtful for yourself, but it's supported by 3 secondary sources, which rely on two primary, at least one of which is based on shamil's words - chichagova, and his ancestry isn't a secret. and if you prove that chichagova, bliyev and halilov are kumyk, which you won't, even then it would be absurd to point out researchers' ethnicity. your suggestion is void. in fact, there are also two versions on his mother's side, they should be added too--KrakDuck (talk) 22:29, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I think I was being pretty clear that I was asking for the opinion of someone with a neutral stance? I was also very clear about which source IS Kumyk, I doubt I could phrase it even more clear. Now that you mention "even then it would be absurd to point out researchers' ethnicity" I realised looking through your debate on the Uchar Hadji articles talk page that you had no problems with the sentence "Some modern scholarship, especially Chechen, tend to name Ochar as Chechen"". Odd. I am pretty sure there will be sources claiming that Shamil was of X ethnicity. Good thing Wikipedia isn't some nationalistic playground, therefore the article should be more neutral. I suggest either adding "according to some sources(, especially Kumyk,) of Kumyk descent" or completely removing the "of Kumyk descent" due to it being highly doubtful and a biased stance. ~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 20:04, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with this. But my previous attempts resulted in nothing. ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 12:42, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

It's very hard to have a debate with the person you tried seeking consensus with. I am going through a similar process with what I assume are his sockpuppets. KrakDuck has not replied yet. I'll file a request to have the sentence changed soon. Glad we were able to seek consensus! ~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 22:39, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

agreed, not hard, but impossible. neutral observation is required.--KrakDuck (talk) 08:41, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Calthinus, what do you think of the idea of moving the theory around Imam Shamils allegedly Kumyk ancestry to a new section. I'm pretty sure there are even more theories claiming he has X ancestry, so I don't think it's necessary to point out that certain Kumyk historians claim he has Kumyk ancestry, especially when you consider that it's seemingly only Kumyks pushing for that theory, or atleast one person with several of his sockpuppets. ~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 04:40, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

7 sources are given, and not "Kumyk" sources.--178.35.104.238 (talk) 07:10, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

You are obviously another sockpuppet pushing for a very biased view, please try to be neutral. I will completely remove the mention of his Kumyk ancestry due to it being simply a theory. You can add it again with a new section, like I suggested. ~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 16:50, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Widely accepted fact about the Kumyk ancestry, based on many primary and secondary sources, from Shamil's own words. I suggest you stop you chauvinistic attempt to wipe out the word Kumyk from the article and be a bit adequate.--178.35.104.238 (talk) 07:14, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Widely accepted by Kumyk nationalists. It is a theory pushed by a nationalist narrative and should not be portrayed as something certain. I am not trying to wipe out the word Kumyk from the article, stop throwing your accusations at me. I have proposed adding a new section about theories of his ancestry, including the Kumyk one. I am thinking of filing a report against you for vandalism and potential sockpuppetry because I am quite sure you are another sockpuppet.~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 18:14, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Your chauvinistic opinion is against well known sources, I also see you recently got away from detection of your multiple accounts which you use for attacking different articles. I'm kindly asking to wait for a neutral participant before advancing your anti Kumyk Crusades.--178.35.104.238 (talk) 19:34, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Neutral participants like User:Adigabrek have already agreed with me. Please refrain from throwing those accusations at me. I have clearly stated that the theory is nothing certain and should not be portrayed as that, therefore should be removed from "Family and early life" and added to a new section about possible non-Avar origins of him, including the Kumyk theory. ~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 21:39, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Hey User:Mz7, the IP user above is most likely another sockpuppet of Arsenekoumyk. He is currently vandalising the article while going against the consensus. Could you please have a look if my suspicion is right. Thank you ~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 23:14, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

I also think he is a sockpuppet. I've also had similar problems with nationalist POV vandals, especially in the Kefir article with "Fael Daug Alan". ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 07:08, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Searching for information relating to Imam Shamil's daughters dependent

This article is extremely interesting. I am the great granddaughter of John Federoff who has been mentioned as a son of Peet'mat Shamil and Sheikh Mansur Federov. John Fedoroff was the son of Ivan Federoff and Molly Federoff nee Syvliczenko.

In my family tree I have no proof that my great grandfather John Fedoroff is related to this great warrior. I am eager to find out more information in reference to this if possible. 2001:8004:12C0:472:EA32:5BC2:DA8A:4B1A (talk) 09:49, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Cross article inconsistency - meeting with Emir Abdelkader during Hajj

[[1]] it states "As a young man In 1825, he set out on the Hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca, with his father. While there, he encountered Imam Shamil;"

However in this page it says, "In 1869 he was given permission to perform the Hajj....he met and conversed with Abdelkader El Djezairi."

surely they didnt meet twice, its improbable. I think this is a mistake somewhere.

Ancestry

Reiner Gavriel Checked the threads (I know Russian well enough) and your opinion above. It's unsupporded. Bliev is a famous Caucasian scholar (not Kumyk, terciary source). Chichagova is a Russian who met Shamil in person (his contemporary), there one more contemporary to Shamil Russian source (secondary to Chichagova source). It means, the Kumyk ancestry is not just a theory as you claim, but a substantiated fact. Also now you're wiping sources out, which seems like vandalism, if I get the rule correctly. And an interesting point is that in the discussion above I see this quote from yourself: "I am not trying to wipe out the word Kumyk from the article, stop throwing your accusations at me. I have proposed adding a new section about theories of his ancestry, including the Kumyk one." But now you are wiping it out, can you explain your radical change and switch to vandalising this source? Until you do, please refrain from provoking breaking consensus, this sources were petrolled and present in the article for around a year. Thank you.--HamzatCan (talk) 07:55, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

BTW, I checked Russian Wikipedia, there are also repeated actions of vandals, to wipe out exactly same sources. Some of those are apparently blocked by admins already and all sources are protected. And Russian Wikipedia Community has much more profound history of the Northern Caucasus. Your claim has no foundation there at all.--HamzatCan (talk) 08:03, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Checked about Bliev again - link, a Doctor of History, specialized in the history of Caucasus, he was Oset from Ossetia. Also, Chichagova wrote down the words "whose ancestor was Kumyk Amir-Khan" from Shamil himself. What's the point of you repeating in your reversions that it's a Kumyk claim at all.--HamzatCan (talk) 08:42, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand why you are bringing up the Russian Wikipedia? Actually thank you. It shows that the claim of Shamils "Kumyk ancestry" is heavily disputed and from what I can see, pushed by Kumyk editors. Not just here on the English Wikipedia (note that sockpuppets and vandalism was used to push for the information prior) but also on the Russian Wikipedia article. All those sources you bring up go back to 1 claim, they all depend on that 1 claim. They are not sources proving the Kumyk ancestry independently from eachother. I would like you to quote exactly what all the sources claim. Up until each source has been clearly stated and shown, the Your way of discussing and accusing reminds me a lot of the user ArseneKoumyk, I think I should open up a sockpuppetry investigation. --Reiner Gavriel (talk) 00:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Administrator say I should indulge your abusive behavior. Ok then. Answer the questions instead of throwing nonsense accusations, please.

Kindly, refute, please, these consensus sources if you can (they are in the edit). Where are nationalist Kumuk sources? What's a single thing which is wrong with the sources? Why are they protected from vandals in the Russian wikipedia, which specializes in this regional history, is it controlled by Kumyk nationalists? Why have you changed you mind (edit) and decided to start wiping out these sources suddenly? And why are you breaking consensus? HamzatCan (talk) 10:41, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Here are the sources duplicated for all who should be paying attention to this one-sided dispute.

• M. N. Chichagova (who met Shamil), Shamil na Kavkaze i v Rossii. Biograficheskii ocherk (St. Petersburg: S. Muller and I. Bogel'man, 1889), reprinted edition 1991, ISBN 5-900450-03-1, page 15 "...his ancestor was Kumyk Amir Khan, a person famous in Caucasus."
• Mark Bliev (Doctor of History), Google Books Russia and Mountaineers of Bigger Caucasus. 2004 "...informs that Shamil's grandfather came from Kumyks - from Kumyk Amir-khan, "a person famous in the Caucasus"".
• He also often addressed his family in Kumyk. *M. N. Chichagova, Shamil na Kavkaze i v Rossii. Biograficheskii ocherk (St. Petersburg: S. Muller and I. Bogel'man, 1889), reprinted edition 1991, ISBN 5-900450-03-1, page 135
• Some biographical details about Shamil // Military digest. Kaluga (where Shamil lived), 1859, issue 12 : "Here is the truth: Shamil's father was... and his fifth ancestor - Kumyk Amir Khan...".

HamzatCan (talk) 10:43, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Quite peculiar that the words "a person famous in Caucasus" is so reoccurring in those >sources that are not related to each other<. I wonder who that "famous Kumyk Amir Khan" was, his legacy must be documented, but where is it? --Reiner Gavriel (talk) 19:13, 02 December 2022 (UTC)

One more which also was in the consensus version but wiped out months ago apparantly:

• Quote from Shamil I'm a simple Tatar"". This book. Сaptivity by Shamil, The True Story of... captivity of the families of General-Mayor Orbeliana and Colonel Chivchavadze... // Journal for students of military education schools, Volume 121. № 483, year 1856. Tatars in 19th century Caucasus was the name only for the Turkic peoples: Balkar-Karachays, Kumyks, Noghais, Dagestan Azerbaijans and Terekeme

HamzatCan (talk) 10:45, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

The word Tatar was used for all (Muslim) North Caucasians at that time period. It is used for Chechens and Dagestani people in several works, maps and documents. The popular novella "Hadji Murat" by Tolstoy for example uses Tatars in many versions. --Reiner Gavriel (talk) 19:09, 02 December 2022 (UTC)

@EchidnaLives please, kindly follow the conversation. HamzatCan (talk) 10:57, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

@HamzatCan this isn't a conversation. This is just you. Also I am not an administrator, just a dispute resolution volunteer.

It isn't my place to provide an opinion on this. Please use the alternate outlets I provided you with on Wikipedia talk:DRN. Also courtesy ping @Reiner Gavriel. (please ping on reply) echidnaLives - talk - edits 11:45, 2 December 2022 (UTC)