Talk:Immanuel Kant/Archive 5

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Portrait wrong?

The portrait that appears next to the section on the categorical imperative might actually be a portrait of the young Jacobi, not of Kant, anyone have a source showing this to be an actual portrait of Kant?

Here is a source that connects it to Jacobi: http://www.myartprints.com/a/wingender/friedrichheinrichjacobi.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:547:1300:8ED0:C991:A600:994D:497F (talk) 15:22, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Nothing about his racism?

His ideas of 'personhood', ranking skin colors and races, etc?50.136.57.217 (talk) 07:30, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree that this is notable enough to be mentioned in the article, and is certainly a topic of scholarly discussion. However, from what I have read and recall, Kant does later come to reject these views.Kingshowman (talk) 06:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

If he rejected it that needs support and his racism should be mentioned. This is not subtle. He has was a racist. Now it is another matter it was like everyone else at the time.

~rAGU (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:19, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you Raguks, why not write it up with sources and let us have a look at it.

TonyClarke (talk) 05:22, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

If someone would like to start on this article, I suggest using Kant's "Of the Different Human Races" as a source to demonstrate his racism and “Of the Distinction of the Beautiful and Sublime in the Interrelations of the Two Sexes" to include his sexist thoughts. Also I wonder how this would best be formated? For example, would it be a subsection under his philosophy? Maclark19 (talk) 05:43, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Personal life

Did he marry, have kids, have a girlfriend, boyfriend?--Timtak (talk) 12:00, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Nope. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.94.89 (talk) 05:14, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

All bodies have mass

I think we can have a better example to illustrate a synthetic proposition. "All bodies have mass" is quite ambiguous. In fact I believe that the statement is analytic , since all bodies have mass. Without getting into a debate over science, the statement could be changed to something like "The sky is blue." shampoo (talk) 06:56, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

'All bodies are heavy' is Kant's example (CPR A7/B11), because the concept body does not contain the concept 'heavy.' That all bodies have mass does not per se make the statement analytic on Kant's view. Mtwasson (talk) 23:25, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Analytic statements are necessarily true. Your argument says, "Because all bodies have mass, the statement 'all bodies have mass' is analytic." This can be restated as, "If all bodies have mass, then 'all bodies have mass' is analytic." Formalized: "If P, then P is analytic," or, "If P, then necessarily P." This last statement is not true, so your argument doesn't hold. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.122.116.107 (talk) 16:59, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Before getting into the structure of an argument and the science behind this subject, what is exactly meant by "bodies"

Critique or Critic?

Whilst reading the writings of C.S. Peirce, I found an article in which Peirce discusses the correct way to translate Kritik into English. Peirce writes, "This word [Critic], used by Plato (who divides all knowledge into epitactic and critic), was adopted into Latin by the Ramists, and into English by Hobbes and Locke. From the last it was taken into German by Kant, who always writes it Critik, the initial c being possibly a reminiscence of its English origin. At present it is written Kritik in German. Kant is emphatic in the expression of the wish that the word may not be confounded with critique, a critical essay (German Kritik)." [See Collected Papers of Charles Sanders Peirce, v.1, (Indianapolis, 1960), paragraph 205, pp. 121] Peirce, perhaps, was observing this same distinction when he entitled one of his books A Critick of Arguments: How to Reason.

So, according to Peirce, Kant adopted the word Critik from the English, and retained the C, and he retained the C so that Critik could be distinguished from the word Kritik, which has the meaning of Critique! Perhaps everyone will consider this a moot point, since most modern English translations of Kant's works use the word Critique instead of Critic or Critick. However, I thought I'd raise this point, because it seems to me that Peirce is clearly saying that Critique is the wrong way to translate Kant's Critik into English. For, Peirce reckons that Kant was emphatic that Critik is to be distinguished from Kritik. As a result, I wonder whether the English translations in the wikipedia article should bear out this distinction too, even if the modern translations fails to do so. I leave this point for discussion.

Every other translator uses "Critique," so there seems to basically be a scholarly consensus on the subject. I'm also not sure what to make of this claim that Kant uses the word "Critik." He doesn't. He uses "Kritik," as in Der Kritik der reinen Vernunft.2601:47:4200:542:CAF7:33FF:FE77:D800 (talk) 21:29, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Kant the Logician

Kant was more than a philosopher of Logic - he was a Logician in his own right. Therefore, I propose that Logic is added to the section titled 'Main Interests'.

For, consider that the Kant-Jasche Logic is an elementary text book in logic which Gottlob Benjamin Jasche (a student of Kant) constructed at the request of Kant, using Kant's notes. This Logic gives a thoroughgoing, and Kantian, treatment of classical logic, and it underpins Kant's three Critiques. Indeed, his three Critiques elaborate on the topics considered in the Logic book. Admittedly, much of his work is concerned with the philosophy of logic, but he adds something to logic itself as well, I think. For instance, Kant laid down his own list of logical categories and explained them in detail. Surely Kant must be regarded as a logician as well as a philosopher; or at least logic must be considered to be one of Kant's main interests? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.33.232 (talk) 18:29, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

He also developed the theory of the syllogism in his paper 'On the False Subtlety of the Four Syllogistic Figures' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Plotinus (talk • contribs) 22:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Kant was in no way or form a logician. The great logicians made lasting an influential contributions to logic. These would include Aristotle (who is considered the first logician) Chrysippus (who founded propositional logic,) Leibniz (who set the seeds for a symbolic logic,) and Frege who, inspired by leibniz created the hybrid predicate calculus. Those people were logicians. Kant was not.

Even though Kant wrote on logic, it was far from his main interest. He didn't write substantially on logic and he wrote no critique on it. Kant main interests were metaphysics, epsitemology, and ethics, but not logic. I'm going to remove logic from his main interests. If anyone feels free to give a stronger defense of why such a main interest should be supported, i'd be happy to hear it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xenfreak (talk • contribs) 18:51, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Criticism?

I would like to point out that Ayn Rand is a philosopher (meaning shallow and spacious thinking) first and a scientist last, if at all. This article suggests that Kant was a scientist first and philologist intent on putting metaphysics on the sure path of a science, and would never have descended to crass propaganda. In Kant's day, philosophy was a general subject equivalent to today's technical college http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/DB047SECT1 More evidence to that can be seen by reading (the structure of) the Table of Contents of, and then the first two pages of "The Fundamental Principles Of The Metaphysics Of Morals" (at least as far as "skills"). However that is hardly the point. Nobody is deserving of over one A4 page of criticism in the body of an article. Please would someone relocate her remarks to her page and put a link to it. Giving so much attention to Kant's "critics" diminishes the Wikipedia. This should generally be applied to all Wikipedia articles. I don't mind doing it but I prefer to get your opinions first.--Justin2007 (talk) 00:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the dates and seeing that Rand has been removed, I could be forgiven for thinking that my plea for action, had been heard and and action carried out. It seems I've been sitting in a dead end. Anyway, on the topic of Criticism of the "creator" of the term "Critical Philosophy" or "Critical Method", Alas, it seems, nobody I have read so far, has actually studied Kant in any depth, and furthermore read the three volumes as Kant intended, as a "System". For indeed he has quite plainly given us the clue, to not only solving this tiny problem, but designing an authentic encyclopedia, like nupedia (if that was its name). Hellooo is anybody listening !!!--Justin2007 (talk) 04:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I notice that Immanuel Kant does not have a criticisms section, whereas several other philosophers on Wikipedia do. Is this an oversight? User:gmork7

Yes, be bold. - Sam 06:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

No. Actually it is not an oversight. It has, in the past, been the topic of much discussion on this page (archived as well). It was generally rejected because of the propensity for POV and the fact that Kant has been the target by trolls with innuendo of Racism, as well as the followers of Ayn Rand wanting to reiterate her non-philosophy and anti-Kantian bullshit, and editors who really had no idea what they were talking about, and so on. My prescription for any one editing on criticism to be careful because it will be scrutinized carefully and without qualification must be accurately sourced. There are also the criticisms of many philosophers that have been rejected in past discussions as meaningless. Criticisms can also be handled from the section on Influence, and this is prescribed. Past discussions have rejected a section on criticism, and there are many articles and prescriptions on Wikipedia for the careful handling of criticism, and whether an encyclopedic format is appropriate for criticism. Being bold here will probably get you vigorously edited.Amerindianarts 07:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

propensity for POV and the fact that Kant has been the target by trolls with innuendo of Racism, as well as the followers of Ayn Rand wanting to reiterate her non-philosophy and anti-Kantian bullshit - Alright, fair enough. You're funny though... for identifying that the propensity of POV is too much for a criticism section, and then vehemently identifying Ayn Rand as having a non-philosophy (which is incorrect) and being anti-Kantian (which is correct.) I can see why you push for no sections on criticism, being so quick to a very particular POV yourself. This isn't the place to argue this point, but I just wanted to throw in a sentence or two on this point: Rand has just as much a philosophy as anyone else if Kant's noumenal world is recognized as coherent philosophy as well. If Rand was non-philosophical she would have written nothing about any of the questions that philosophy poses to us. That's all I'm going to say. I'm not going to even try to pursue a criticism section here if this is the POV tripe I'm going to receive in return. I'll of course not in parting that it's funny Rand has one, a rather LARGE one, just for herself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand#Criticism. Seems Kant's supporters are just louder, so much for avoiding POV. User:gmork7

Relax, gmork7. Try not to take out your frustrations in the form of ranting and fingerpointing. If you have suggestions - complaints get us nowhere - for a criticism section of Kant, perhaps you could submit them to Amerindianarts or I, or to the community here and something could be developed collaboratively. - Sam 05:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

That is a reasonable suggestion, Sam. As someone who has been overseeing this article for a couple of years, I am familiar with what has been suggested and rejected. Many philosophers criticizing Kant have been suggested who's criticism are not important, and often represent slanted views, presenting the problem of representing an alternative view to balance the equation, and this generally leads to POV. Like I said gmork7, as a newbee you should first familiarize yourself with Wikipedians outlook on criticism. It is usually considered non-encyclopedic. This is an article on Kant's philosophy, and inclusion of other philosopher's thoughts have been limited to the influence section. Other criticisms are generally applicable across philosophy, and not just Kant, e.g. the external source in the morals section mentions the universalizability test and that source handles criticisms; not only of Kant, but the usage across the board in philosophy.

The issues of Rand and Racism have been settled. Rand has been thoroughly rejected. She is for the most part not accepted in the philosophical community, and her criticisms of Kant are certainly not important. Didn't she say herself that she was an existentialist, but since that name was already taken she would call her philosophy "objectivism". What? Was she too good for the existentialist school? Why couldn't she just state her philosophy and let it go at that. Did she consider herself so special that she had to steal Frege's term and give it a new meaning? Her criticisms of Kant as a "monster" is enough said. She is an egoist simply looking to make a name, and emotively at that. It is not philosophy, but more of a psychology with followers. You may consider that POV, but this is the page for that, and this IS the page for that type of discussion if you are considering to insert her criticisms in this article.

As for your statement "Seems Kant's supporters are just louder, so much for avoiding POV", this is childishness. The current article is well sourced and scrutinized for POV. Talk pages are the place for POV on Wiki. Since you are new and don't seem to know that, I suggest you cool your jets before tackling an article as important as this one and do a little reading of Wiki guidelines, etc.Amerindianarts 08:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I would also like to add that points for criticism have been handled by presenting the problematic in the footnotes. An example is Kant's statement that "space is a pure intuition and not a concept". Different translations have presented the issue in different lights, and there is also the difference in the first and second editions. Did Kant also mean "spaces" as in the Kemp Smith translation? This translation throws a little different light on the construction of concepts in Kant (and possibly even contradictory on Smith's part, as opposed for example to the Meikeljohn translation). Which do you choose in your criticism? Whatever the choice, right at the heart of the matter is a presupposition that can be taken literally as POV, either way. Criticism here is a very complex issue, even if you are an expert. Criticism can only be secondarily sourced, and the issues are so complex that many philosophers, e.g. Rand, don't have an inkling. It must be presented in a balanced manner, and this generally falls outside the domain of being descriptive of Kant, which is how this article will remain (see tags at the top of the page and talk page discussion in bringing this article to "A" quality). Also check Wiki discussions on criticisms in bios under that project. If noumena is to be criticized, it should be footnoted from a section on Kant's epistemology. That is the section currently needed, and not a section on criticism. The point is remaining descriptive and not tainting the reader, but let them perform their own discovery, which is how encyclopedias work. I could care less about the criticism section in Rand. Amerindianarts 09:19, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I think the both of you have a valid point, however, you both seem to be sashaying in another direction from which you began, that this article does not have a section concerning a levelled critique of Kant's work. You appear now to be deciding on what is a valid critique. There are, as noted, some philosophers who have criticised different elements of Kant's work, albeit with different personal motives (is that not inherent in any critique anyway?). Regardless of the more 'colourful' characters who have provided some sort of a critique, perhaps this is still worth a second look. Irrespective of arguments of right or wrong on a critique I find them valid as they elucidate the possibility that there is another way of thought about a particular topic or matter. Perhaps even highlighting this possibility concerning Kant's philosophies, without entering into the argument of the criticisms themselves may be the way forward? Lokifluff 14:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

"...the propensity for POV...wanting to reiterate her non-philosophy and anti-Kantian bullshit...who's (sic) criticism are not important...this is childishness...It must be presented in a balanced manner..." Ha ha ha..., you wikipedians are too funny. It's good that an expert of criticism is here to tell us that criticism of Kant is simply too complex, even for experts, to be applicable here. This is very prudent, as Objectivist wikipedians might otherwise descend upon us like hordes of the unwashed hun, flooding wikipedia with their anti-kantian bullshit. I would also add that discrediting Ayn Rand as unimportant in the philosophical community, at the mere mention of criticism of Kant, is solid, irrefutable proof of her lack of notability and significance. It's so solid, in fact, that I might even call it downright unfalsifiable! Thanks also for informing me that, rather than to actually discuss the writing of the article in question in a reasonable, intelligent manner, "Talk pages are the place for POV on Wiki." I am new here, so let me be one of the (presumably) many newbies thanking you, Amerindianarts, for curing such naivete.

Kant is not perfect, therefore in the interest of creating a balanced page on his philosophy, some part of the page should be devoted to criticism, even if that criticism is, "He's overly wordy and difficult to understand." Which is certainly true, regardless of your opinion of his philosophy. Rand may not be the best response to Kant and I'm not familiar enough with either philosophy to write such a criticism myself, but there must certainly be some post-modern philosopher of note.207.172.88.28 22:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I still don't see why Ayn Rand should be cited in the context of a discussion of Kant and his thinking. If she is to be considered a philospher so should L. Ron Hubbard and Mickey Mouse - Otto Strasser. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.89.33.37 (talk) 21:31, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Reivsed What I Thought Was Obvious Vandalism

I'm pretty sure Kant never authored a work titled, "Do me like a dirty pig" so I changed it to what the underlying link led to. 150.208.20.2 16:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)JLG 11-29-06

what up with this?

Actually, it is a little known work in Latin age me similis immunda sus. 1Z 20:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC) (NB date)

Incomplete sentence in Moral Philosophy section?

This sentence doesn't appear to parse properly. Did something get dropped after "rational agents"?

"Accordingly, he believed that moral obligation applies to all and only rational agents (408).[10]"

"...only rational agents" what?

If moral obligations apply to all, then surely they apply to rational agents, so then that piece of the sentence is moot. So it seems something after "rational agents" was cut or never fully inserted. Forgive my ignorance if I've missed some deep philosophical point here...

154.20.23.155 04:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a way of saying that it applies to all rational agents but only rational agents, i.e. all every rational agent but nobody else. If it were only stated that it applied to all rational agents, then it would still be open for interpretation on part of the reader whether it applied to some non-rational agents as well. --D. Webb 12:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Emanuel Kant?

"Immanuel Kant — who was baptized as "Emanuel" but later changed his name to "Immanuel" after he learned Hebrew" Wikipedia seems to be the only source telling me about "Emanuel", that's why I added [citations needed]. I used google, and checked few books, but I don't have access to all the books nor had I time to check every link. -83.145.228.20.

It happens to be true, though. But I'm not sure where I can find a source in English. I think that you will find this information in Manfred Kühn, Kant. Eine Biographie (München: Beck, 2004). --D. Webb 20:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Religious references to Immanuel Kant:

64.129.187.3 00:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)I'm asking anyone interested in Kant's enduring influence on religious thought to checkout a specific reference @ [1]. See "Whoa Woe (Jesus Is All I Need)". Please leave feedback and/or cite other relevant references. Thank you.

The Kant Song

I think it would be worthwhile to add 'The Kant Song' to the external links. It is humourous and informative. http://www.auburn.edu/academic/liberal_arts/philosophy/kant.htm ChaosKind 03:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC) 20:16,16 January 2007

Try reading Kant's works and understanding them. Then, you can talk about a Kant song. Lestrade 20:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

There's no reason to be snotty.--Brijohn6882 (talk) 23:55, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to seem snotty. Kant's works have been ignored and unread because people rely on secondary and tertiary sources instead of reading Kant's own works. As a result, he has effectively been denied his right to present his ideas to the world. Scientists, in particular, have damaged themselves and, as a result, all other people by not reading Kant.Lestrade (talk) 22:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

The Kant Song is great, and lacking a sense of humor does not a philosopher make. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:52, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Not funny in the least. Another nail in Kant's coffin. Comprehension of his philosophy elanguesces.Lestrade (talk) 18:41, 9 November 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

Criticism Again

All due fairness, there is a noticable swinging in the opinions of the wiki staff when involving Kant & Rand. Even the way that the articles are presented show an agenda.

I feel that aloowing a Criticism section would be rair or removing the one from Rand. 66.202.195.43 22:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I am no fan of Kant, but as far as reputation goes, to compare Kant to Rand is to compare Bach to Elvis. Rick Norwood 13:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Having so much of the content of this page devoted to criticism of his work by Anne Rand makes the article look ridiculous in the eyes of anyone who studied philosophy in college. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.33.228 (talk) 00:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Considering that the commenter directly above believes that Rand's first name is Anne, I will assume that he, like many of Ayn Rand's critics has never read her work. I started the criticism section, and began it with Rand because she is the one philosopher most opposed to Kant's philosophy. I included a quote by her addressing every fundamental of that opposition. I admit that the entry is lengthy and I will be editing it for the sake of brevity, but besides the issue of length, the entry is completely appropriate. I will be submitting further the criticisms of Kant by other philosophers in the near future and hope that other users join me. --Andrewsandberg (talk) 06:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

In all due respects Andrew, what is this obsession with rhetoric (dialectic) as the way to truth?
The search for truth (for that is all that criticism is), can never be found by way of the dialectic.
for ease of understanding I will call upon:
:http://bright.net/~jclarke/kant/ and

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Philosophy/Kant/cpr/

I beg you to read the first line of the most devastating statement ever written about our beloved gutter "criticism".
Kant was dealing altogether with something else.

"WE have already entitled dialectic in general a logic of illusion. etc"

     Part I. Transcendental Aesthetic
           Section 1. Space
           Section 2. Time
     Part II. Transcendental Logic
           Division I. Transcendental Analytic in two books
           Division II. Transcendental Dialectic in two books

For truths sake stop reading critics of Kant before you have first read Kant and understood him.

against which critical point do you take a measure? Search on "goat" and read more on the dialectic.

For if a question is absurd in itself and calls for an answer where none is required, it not only brings shame on the propounder of the question, but may betray an incautious listener into absurd answers, thus presenting, as the ancients said, the ludicrous spectacle of one man milking a he-goat and the other holding a sieve underneath. Kant--Justin2007 (talk) 06:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Go easy on me, as this is my first post. I'm not sure if this talk of criticism is dead, but the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy mentions (what appear to be, at least) legitimate 'critiques' of Kant's 'Critique of Pure Reason,' when it mentions the two most popular interpretations of Kant's Transcendental Idealism; the interpretations put forth call into question the consistency of Kant's theses. Is this relevant? The link is http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant/. At any rate, good luck!--Time Jockey (talk) 02:53, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Main Fact Summary Not Supported in Body and Fact Citations

Philosophers influencing Immanuel Kant in the right-hand summary table are not supported in body. Nearly all featured philosopher facts within the Philosophy WikiProject are inadequately cited, Thomas Aquinas is the exception.

Paradoxos 23:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Mathematics being Synthetic

This may seem a little off topic, but I have a question: when Kant says "3 + 3 = 6" is synthetic, is he saying that "3" is the subject and "+ 2 = 6" the predicate or is he saying "3 + 3" is the subject and "= 6" is the predicate? If he means the former, then I would agree with him, if the latter, I'm not so sure, because although there is nothing in the two 3s that shows that when combined they equal 6, isn't the meaning changed with the addition of the plus sign, which says to add them together, which, in maths, means to calculate them? So is this analytic or not? I'm guessing not since there is nothing in the "+" sign that says the answer, or the two "3s" if examined separately, but combined to make one subject which does in fact equal 6, isn't 6 in the subject then? I'm guessing not, but I just want to make sure. Sorry if this is a silly question, I've just discovered Kant and have only started on the Prolegomena. Josh.passmore 16:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Be careful about using Wikipedia for a discussion forum. You are seeing an equation as a categorical assertion, employing subject, copula, and predicate. Does the copula "is" mean "equals" or "possesses (has)"? The idea of a synthetic equation becomes more understandable when you use larger numbers. For example, 13464 is not readily analyzed into the summation of 9987 and 3477. As a matter of fact, 13464 could be analyzed into the summation of 2012 and 11452, as well as a great many other combinations of numbers.Lestrade 18:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

Thanks ever so much for the information. After posting this I went back to the book and figured it out, so I guess this can be removed then. Josh.passmore 16:45, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I just read the part about math being synthetic as well, and I think not only is it misleading but it's probably wrong on a few technicalities at least (especially if the meaning of equality here is not clarified, as there are many interpretations):

Once we have grasped the concepts of addition, subtraction or the functions of basic arithmetic, we do not need any empirical experience to know that 100 + 100 = 200, and in this way it would appear that arithmetic is in fact analytic. However, that it is analytic can be disproved thus: if the numbers five and seven in the calculation 5 + 7 = 12 are examined, there is nothing to be found in them by which the number 12 can be inferred. Likewise, the terms "the current President of the United States" and "George W. Bush" have the same reference, but not the same sense; such it is that "5 + 7" and "the cube root of 1,728" or "12" are not analytic because their reference is the same but their sense is not - meaning that the mathematic judgment "5 + 7 = 12" tells us something new about the world. It is self-evident, and undeniably a priori, but at the same time it is synthetic. And so Kant proves a proposition can be synthetic and known a priori.

The above seems problematic to me. In particular, the statement about how there is "nothing to be found in them" (5 + 7) "by which the number 12 can be inferred" is simply wrong from a number of viewpoints. If one considers numbers in the Peano tradition:

1. $0\in \mathbb {N}$

2. ${\frac {n\in \mathbb {N} }{\mathrm {succ} \ n\in \mathbb {N} }}$

3. ...

so that:

$0=0$

$\mathrm {succ} \ 0=1$

$\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ 0)=2$

$\ldots$

and so on, and if addition is defined thusly:

$n+m\triangleq \left\{{\begin{matrix}n,&\mathrm {if} \ m=0\\(\mathrm {succ} \ n)+m',&\mathrm {if} \ m=\mathrm {succ} \ m'\end{matrix}}\right.$

Then $5+7$ becomes the rather verbose:

$(\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ 0)))))\ +\ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ 0)))))))$

Now one could argue that the above has a different sense from $12$:

$\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ (\mathrm {succ} \ 0)))))))))))$

If you want to claim that sense is distinguished just by the different syntax tree of the second sentence (Frege's notion of sense is more nuanced than this though) then OK, but even so, the original claim is wrong -- there is something to be found in $5+7$ by which $12$ (the denotation or referent of the sentence '$5+7$', if we are again oversimplifying things) can be inferred. That something is precisely the inherent structure (i.e., something to be found 'in' them, in contradiction to the original claim of the quoted passage) of both $5$ and $7$ when evaluated as arguments to $+$. In fact, by the Curry-Howard Isomorphism 'inferring', or rather deducing this result, is simply the same as computing the $\beta$-normal form.

I don't think that Kant is sloppy enough to make this mistake in his understanding of mathematics. Granted, I am speaking here of the logical form of numbers, but this logical form is driven by our intuition of how computation of natural numbers must work.

So I think a better way to put this issue is to say that we may learn something about the world by deducing that $5+7=12$ simply because the result of $5+7$ is not immediate -- it must be computed, or decided, and thus it requires a certain amount of calculation in our minds, driven by intuition (i.e., it is synthetic). However, that $5+7$ actually does turn out to be equal to $12$ (with respect to $\beta$-normal form), is a logical necessity because of the way we have defined our numbers and operations (it is a priori). Thus it is synthetic a priori.

38.100.220.228 07:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Article length

As it stands, the article is 74kb long, almost twice the desireable length. I think it ought to be considered to split the article, perhaps with one biographical aricle and one philosophical, such as Friedrich Nietzsche and Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche. Thoughts?Skomorokh 15:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

For it!--Heyitspeter 00:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

LPSG

I've been adding (the equivalent to) the following in many rather patchy Further Reading sections of a lot of Philosophy pages, but this article already seems to have a worthwhile Further Reading section, so I'm only going to give it here on the talk page. If anyone sees a reason to add it or improve the FR section in the article by using this resource, go right ahead.

• The London Philosophy Study Guide offers many suggestions on what to read, depending on the student's familiarity with the subject: Kant

- KSchutte 23:13, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed line

I have removed the line "basically contending that the world conforms to our understanding, rather than the vice versa", which was used to describe transcendental idealism. If someone can explain how this is not a gross simplification/mistatement, or back it up with a source, I won't object to it being re-added —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Luminos (talk • contribs) 06:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

Influences and Influenced

I have started a discussion regarding the Infobox Philosopher template page concerning the "influences" and "influenced" fields. I am in favor of doing away with them. Please join the discussion there. RJC ^Talk 14:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Someone removed Ludwig von Mises without discussing the removal. Among pundits who identify themselves as economic conservatives (libertarians), Ludwig von Mises is an oft-cited theorist. Why would mention of that author be removed IF indeed Kant's influence was considerable in his life and development? MaynardClark (talk) 23:37, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Tomb inscription

cross-posted from image description here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_talk:Kant's_tombstone_Kaliningrad.jpeg - sorry >_<'

Russian lines read: "Две вещи наполняют душу все новым и растущим восхищением и благоговением по мере того, как задумываешься над ними все глубже и дольше : звездное небо надо мной и моральный закон во мне."

More correct english for that would be something like this:

"Two things fill the soul with increasingly new and growing admiration and awe as you ponder on them increasingly deeper and longer: the starry sky above me and the moral law within me". 85.141.245.121 23:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind. Actually, it's better translated as "mind" into english, not "soul" :) . So says the russian "Critique" 85.141.246.194 21:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The Death penalty?

What were his views on it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.85.144.149 (talk) 22:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC).

I´m a student of law in germany and we have had some lectures about the different theories on the purpose of punishment. Beeing a child of his time, Kant didn`t reject death-penalty. Maybe there is an article about Kant`s "island-model"?

I thought that Kant was pro-death penalty - a simple case of universalising the maxim: the death penalty for murder is simply universalising the murderer's own maxim.Pgg7 (talk) 09:51, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think this would be the right interpretation of Kant's Ethics, because you don't just universalise the action the murderer took. Instead you have to consider for yourself if "kill somebody else" is a right maxim. Although I have to admitt, that I don't know Kant's personal viewpoint on the death penalty, I think a modern intepretation would reject it, because Kant'S Ethic doesnt't know maxims like " A is right, if B". --79.241.170.46 (talk) 01:15, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

From what I remember from my philosophy class where we briefly talked about Kant, he was against murder and his ethical theory of kantianism said that if you have rules, there can be no exceptions or justifications for breaking them due to the fact that this destroyed the actual meaning of the rule. But that's only what i think i remember, you should probably get it checked out.

There is no need to interpret this question in terms of the CI. Kant stated in the Metaphysical Elements of Justice, ""But whoever has committed murder, must die." 63.248.139.209 (talk) 00:59, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I know this is late to the party but if anyone is still unsure or confused as to his stance on this, he was very clearly in support of the death penalty. More specifically he supported the law of retaliation meaning the punishment should fit the crime. You can find his writings about it here http://acad.depauw.edu/~jeremyanderson/old/120s05/120z_kant.html, in case the information could be used in this or other articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigmoe797 (talk • contribs) 00:15, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

entry in 'Kant's Later Work'

The following complete nonsense is in the Biography section under 'Kant's Later Work': "Immanuel Kant was the cousin of Eugene Williams. Much of his thinking was influenced by the numerous evening conversations in the tavern sipping brewed root beer."

Some person or persons has made the effort to put together an entry on an important philosopher, but presumably someone else thought this inane addition was the height of hilarity. We'll never get to the Kingdom of Ends at this rate, unless there is a tavern of that name somewhere. Wizziwiks 13:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect statement or misleading?

The Analytic-synthetic distinction page lists this; "analytic proposition: a proposition whose predicate concept is contained in its subject concept & synthetic proposition: a proposition whose predicate concept is not contained in its subject concept"

The main article on Kant, under the section on Kant's theory of perception, states;

"Before Kant's first Critique, empiricists (cf. Hume) and rationalists (cf. Leibniz) assumed that all synthetic statements required experience in order to be known."

Isn't this a ridiculous claim? To know without direct experience is just extrapolation. It sounds like their claiming Kant was the first to think of what is a basic human cognitive function we all develop as infants. Am I just reading this incorrectly? 206.213.251.31 21:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe that you are reading this incorrectly. It is true that both Hume and Leibniz use that definition stated above for analytic and synthetic propositions. Analytic propositions are those in which the predicate is implicit in the subject, as in 'All bodies are extended'. The concept of 'extension' is necessarily contained in the concept of 'body'. In this case all we have to do is examine the definition of 'body' to infer that the predicate is already contained in it. In contrast, synthetic propositions are those in which the predicate is not contained in the subject, that is to say, we can only know it by direct resort to experience. So, when you say "Isn't this a ridiculous claim? To know without direct experience is just extrapolation." This right here presupposes or assumes that experience is the source of knowledge, which is the central presupposition of empiricism; the notion that we can know certain propositions independent of experience or a priori was the central tenet of rationalism. Hume, when he address the question of 'analytic propositions' simply concludes that these propositions are tautological and belong to what he calls 'relations of ideas' as opposed to 'matters of fact'. Accordingly, Hume states, analytic propositions do not tell us anything about the world, but merely about the way our concepts work. The problem with your question, as I have tried to indicate, is that it assumes something, namely, that experience is the source of experience, and furthermore, it shows that you have not considered the other side of the argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rphilosophy29 (talk • contribs) 18:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Newbie question regarding 'The Metaphysical Elements of Ethics' (1780)

I note that this work does not appear in the Bibliography. See: http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/etext04/ikmee10.txt

Is it know under another name? If so what? Mercury543210 20:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Critique of Mr. Critique

How about an article criticizing Kant or at least a section where modern philosophers or even traditional philosophers point out Kant's weak points or contradictions? I'd be very grateful to read about a critique of Kant, Mr. Critique himself. It would excellent for Wikipedia. Kleinbell 05:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

You could try Schopenhauer's criticism of the Kantian philosophy, Schopenhauer's criticism of Kant's Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals, and Schopenhauer's criticism of Kant's schemata.Lestrade 13:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

Thanks Lestrade. How about a synthesis of this and of other critiques as part of this article? Kleinbell 07:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Mr Kleinbell, (forgive me if I'm wrong), but I thought this was and OPEN encyclopedia as distinct from a CLOSED authenticated enclopedia, but an encyclopea none the less. As if we are not awash with critics. My dream is that someone who has actually read and studied Kant in depth would actually pull his entire works together and present it as a complete SYSTEM. Kant does not read like a novel. Schopenhauer was just one of the many artful "critics" who seized upon a portion of the Whole and ran off to make a meal of it. Fichte, Schelling, Hegal, Marx was another line of Kantian opportunist philosophers (lovers of specious thinking). It seems Kant will remain the eternal Giordano Bruno, facing an eternity of inquisitions. Rest his soul --Justin2007 (talk) 04:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Added Section on Categories

I was surprised that the article had so much information on Immanuel Kant's theory of space and time, but none on his categories, so I added a section. It may need a little cleaning, but I think it's a start. Le vin blanc 07:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Corrected Misleading Words

I have corrected numerous misleading words and sentences in the second paragraph of "The Young Scholar." The paragraph was originally too definititive in its statements of affirmation of Kant's work. For example, Kant did not "discover" that nebulae form into star systems, he theorized it. He had no proof. The paragraph as it reads now reflects such distinctions. 68.34.11.192 (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

New Criticism Section

I created a criticism section last week, and began it with Ayn Rand. I did this, first of all because Objectivism differs from Kant's philosophy on every fundamental and Rand's denunciations of him are more sweeping and aggressive than any other philosopher in history. Secondly, besides Kantianism, Objectivism is the only philosophy I have a technical knowledge of, and I wanted to give the criticism section a proper start, free of factual error. My initial submission included quotes from Rand's work addressing what she considered his primary flaws. This submission was lengthy and because of that seemed like an advertisement for Objectivism (and I will admit that is my primary intention), rather than a serious contribution of unbiased information. I have attempted to mend this problem by editing the entry down to two quote blocks, both addressing only epistemology. I hope this meets with the approval of other users, and I hope to see more entries into the criticism section. An important philosopher to include is Hegel, since his philosophy was the most influential of Kant's derivative thinkers(I know very little about its details however). --Andrewsandberg (talk) 08:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed numerous times before, and the consensus was to not have a criticism section. One of the main reasons was because Randoids were using it to advertise objectivism, as you yourself have admitted you are doing. So I am removing the section. --Le vin blanc (talk) 21:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

One solution is to have separate articles for each philosophical criticism. There is an article entitled Schopenhauer's criticism of the Kantian philosophy that can be read by anyone who is really interested. By having a separate article for each criticism, the Immanuel Kant article is not overburdened. This means that anyone who feels competent can create an Ayn Rand's criticism of the Kantian philosophy article.Lestrade (talk) 04:28, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

Most important figure in philosophy after Aristotle

I added a citation needed tag after this statement. It seems a rather bold claim to make with out any referencing. It's not something that would be considered common knowledge. CrazySpas (talk) 09:55, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it should be removed outright. It is hardly universally held. I'd certainly say he's behind Augustine. That he's the most influential SINCE Augustine I would find difficult to dispute, however. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.251.118.118 (talk) 05:04, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

While it might not be universally held, I do believe that when reading the history of philosophy through a schema of paradigmatic shifts, one would end up with something like:

Plato - Descartes - Kant

My main objection to the above-mentioned status of Augustine is that he is merely refining on the subtler points of Aristotle (which again systematized and refined Plato). Come Descartes and his Discourse, western philosophy suddenly takes a turn away from the scholastic and into the modern or rationalistic world (quoth the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "Descartes has been heralded as the first modern philosopher". http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-works/) and then again Kant, of which it is undoubtedly true that any post-Kantian philosopher has felt the need to relate to, directly or indirectly.

Is it then valid to say that Kant was the most important philosopher since "x"? Rather, I would recommend filling the space with a paragraph stating thusly that Kant defined a paradigm in philosophy (and as soon as I get up in the morning, I shall look the reference up in my books). Melpomenon (talk) 22:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

In general, statements of this form do not belong in an encyclopedia, since they are necessarily opinion rather than information. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Confusion: Kant's philosophy

The raw code is this:

==Kant's philosophy==
{{Confusing|date=March 2008}}

which is a little bit ironic. All (or most) philosophers consider Kant's philosophy being confusing. It might be a wish in vain to hope for the article being not confusing then... It should rather be:

==Kant's philosophy==
{{Confusing|date=March 1744}}

or some such. Said: Rursus ☻ 11:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

LOL X-D Would you like to preserve that joke at wp:humor?. I offer my personal page as lodging Randroide (talk) 10:20, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

• Although I admire and can make sense of much of the COPR that's a great joke. 86.41.82.42 (talk) 23:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
  • <g> Ditto  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  23:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

See also section suggestion

The section has too many references. I suggest to order the links with subsections, as "Concepts", "Individuals", "Criticism"... something like this:

===See also=== {{Wikiquotepar|Immanuel Kant}} {{commons|Immanuel Kant}} {{wikisource author}}

Individuals

• Arthur Schopenhauer
• David Hume
• Gottlob Ernst Schulze
• John Locke
• Karl Leonhard Reinhold

Concepts

• A priori and a posteriori (philosophy)
• Empiricism
• German Idealism
• Meaning of life (philosophy)
• Neo-Kantianism
• Philosophy of freedom
• Rationalism
• Schema (Kant)

Criticism

• Schopenhauer's criticism of the Kantian philosophy
• Schopenhauer's criticism of Kant's Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals
• Schopenhauer's criticism of Kant's schemata

• Aenesidemus (book)
• Contributions to liberal theory
• Kant Russian State University
• Liberalism

Feedback, please. Randroide (talk) 17:06, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Did it

[2] I think this way is much better Randroide (talk) 12:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Erm..how do I put this

This may not be relevant to anything, but at least is amusing if you are as immaure as I am, speaking to a German about Kant (who I know only a little about, and in my experience have always pronounced kAnt), apparently the correct pronunciation of the name is more akin to the well known expletive c*nt. Perhaps this could be made a note of as pronunciation is with other names? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.39.142 (talk) 16:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

It has been a while since I studied German, but I am still a language and philosophy teacher. The name "Kant" does not rhyme with "punt" or "want" (at least not in my Midwestern English) but is pretty close to rhyming with "jaunt" or "font." P0M (talk) 05:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Im a native German speaker. "Kant" is pronounced like "can´t" in British (!) English. Maybe the A is a bit shorter than in the word can´t. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.57.93.154 (talk) 14:29, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

With regard to POM's entry: Ermm... want for you doesn't rhyme with jaunt or font? Also, the German pronunciation is a less nasal short a, so it does sound quite close to "see you next Tuesday" 71.54.203.30 (talk) 05:14, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

An incomprehensible sentence

The text currently says:

Recent Kant scholarship has devoted more attention to these "pre-critical" writings and has recognized a degree of continuity with his mature work.

I cannot be sure what the intended meaning is and so would not like to contemplate fixing it. "Scholarship has recognized continuity with his mature work" -- means what? P0M (talk) 05:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps those who deeply study Kant's writings recognize that there is a "flow", a consistency in his writing that indicates a maturity in his philosophical thought and in his ability to impart his knowledge using the written word.  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  23:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Probably impossible to defend

The text currently says:

These ideas have largely framed or influenced all subsequent philosophical discussion and analysis.

Whenever a writer makes a statement about all, s/he takes on an impossible burden of proof. How does the writer know that there is not a significant philosopher somewhere in some third world country who will blow everybody's mind away, but who has never even heard of Kant? P0M (talk) 06:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Meaning?

This which has just been explicated is commonly called a transcendental reduction.

I've seen "that which" at the head of a sentence before, but never "this which." One key to good writing is to avoid making the reader guess what is trying to be said. P0M (talk) 06:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Moment? In what sense?

The section called "Kant’s Categories of the Understanding" repeatedly uses the word "moment." Is that word used as a term in physics? (Tendency, or measure of tendency, to produce motion, esp. motion about a fixed point or axis.)Or is the word intended to mean the more commonplace "brief period of time?" Or is it a special term derived from Kant's own technical vocabulary and having neither of the above meanings? The average well-informed reader should not have to guess. P0M (talk) 07:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that it should be taken out of the article and replaced with some comprehensible English expression. I don't remember Kant using the term. Hegel may, certainly certain writers in the Hegelian tradition, such as Adorno, use it, to mean an aspect or sub-tendency of something. But I don't think a normal person reading the article would understand it. I started to rewrite it after seeing your comment, but realized that it would be a more complicated rewrite than I thought, and don't have time to pursue it right now. In this context it could sometimes be rendered as "role", "contribution", "function", etc. Jjshapiro (talk) 18:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I wrote the section, so I can say with certainty that most of the time, by 'moment' I did indeed mean 'role', 'contribution' and 'function'. On a sidenote, I should really apologize for the section's prose. They are just awful, but I figured that they would be better than nothing, considering that the categories of the faculty of the understanding are such an important component of Kant's philosophy, and that the prose would be amended by other wiki-users. --Le vin blanc (talk) 21:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Kant uses 'moment' in CPR A70/B95 "[T]he function of thought in judgment can be brought under four heads, each of which contains four moments." (Kemp Smith's translation) It means something like subspecies; eg under "quantity" the moments are universal (all), particular (some), singular (one). He also uses the word 'function' in various places. That said, K's terminology is almost never clear. Mtwasson (talk) 23:38, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Faculty of understanding versus understanding

Just a short time ago, the expert, J Shapiro, blithely did a global revert of edits I had made. In so doing, Shapiro has reverted different categories of edits. Most of my edits consisted of changing "the understanding" to "understanding". Shapiro explained that I had been mistaken in supposing that this was a matter of a contrast between the use of the definite article in the two languages, German and English. Instead, there is a substantive issue involved. But the annotation to my own edit made clear that there were other changes I had made. Now it seems I must call more attention to them. First, the hyphen in "free-play" is absolutely wrong, in English at least. Second the following sentence is obviously missing one or more words:

Man thinks via judgments, so all possible judgments must be listed and the perceptions connected within them put aside, so the moments the understanding is involved in constructing judgments can be examined.

I amended it to

Man thinks via judgments, so all possible judgments must be listed and the perceptions connected within them put aside, so THAT the moments the understanding is involved in constructing judgments ABOUT can be examined.

Now, if my understanding is faulty, then correct it. But we cannot tolerate that anybody would see nothing wrong with the previous version of the sentence.

That addressed, let's remind the experts that you have to *explain things* to the nonexperts. You can't just write about "the understanding", meaning some "faculty of understanding", when hardly anybody outside of philosophy is aware of the notion of a faculty of understanding, and *for sure*, in English, the collocation, "the understanding" is exclusive to philosphers. Therefore, I have taken the crucial explanation that Shapiro provided in his annotation and inserted it at the head of the subsection that discusses "the understanding". Hurmata (talk) 08:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Inserted the "Wikify" tag

What brought me to this article was merely the need for chronological information. I started really trying to read the explanation of Kant's philosophy, and I am shocked at both how useless it is for educating the public, because of its density, and at the lack of internal links. With a dense subject like this, almost every word could be Wikified. Be that as it may, there's almost NO Wikification -- crazy. Anyway, I really feel that persons who collectively have brought the text to its present state had no interest in making themselves intelligible to anyone who is not a confirmed fan of the subject matter. Even for such people, the exposition is abrupt, there is no sense of a need to make proper introductions and transitions from one sentence to the next. Hurmata (talk) 09:27, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you are quite right. To me, the article reads very much like it was written by Kant himself. P0M (talk) 00:15, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

A problematical addition

Someone added the following collection of words:

Accordingly his reasoning that a person forfeits his right to be treated as a human if he acts like an animal.

The above is not syntactically correct. Moreover, it needs a citation to establish that it is actually something Kant said. I have removed it pending clarification. P0M (talk) 04:43, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Innate or not?

On Wikipedia, there appear to be several users who believe that Kant did not maintain that the categories of the power of the understanding are innate ideas. They have even stated this belief as fact in articles (here is an example). I find this to be controversial, because I -- and I am sure many other people have to -- have been taught that Kant held the categories to be innate, and it is precisely because they are innate that we are forced to think in accordance with them, and cannot therefore know things as they are in themselves; all my translated copies of Kant's works support this common interpretation too, although I am ashamed to admit that I am not capable of reading the original German, so there is a slight possibility that, unbeknownst to me, they are inaccurate, and thus my understanding of Kant is too. Therefore I would like the supporters of the unusual interpretation -- which reads like a linguistic reinterpretation of Kant, done under the light of Wittgenstein -- to state their case, because I can otherwise see no reason for their reading to be stated as fact in articles, and I am, I admit, very interested myself in this new interpretation. --Le vin blanc (talk) 16:17, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

It is difficult to keep the vocabulary defined as one is reading Kant, and there is likely to be even more slippage when writing about it. I've marked the passage you mentioned above to request a citation. The fundamental difficulty for Kant, once he realized that there is a chain of causation and inference between the thing-in-itself and what the human observer experiences, is how to characterize and inter-relate the "components" of lived experience. The vocabulary he uses and/or creates really needs a series of explanations in clear English. I think most people try to stick with Kant's words and his definitions in order to avoid going off the track. Maybe the passage in question is an attempt to make such a clear English explanation that is clear but wrong. I don't recall Kant being worried about "word and object" questions. I suspect that one reason may be that the first thing he does is to question our access to "the object." What we have access to is "the experience," and how experience relates to object is problematical. So simply giving a name to one or another kind of experience is reliable -- at least if we are all really sharing the same kind of experience due to our very similar human organisms.

When I have time I can look for some clarification in one of the secondary texts I find most reliable.P0M (talk) 08:36, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

(I know I'm coming very late to this discussion, but maybe the comment will help future readers.) There's a huge scholarly debate over whether or not Kant was a nativist, i.e., if he thought that the categories were innate ideas or features of the mind. In fact, that might be one of the biggest exegetical controversies about the first Critique. I believe that the tendency in contemporary English-language scholar (the scholarly I'm most familiar with) leans against the psychologistic/innatist reading of Kant. But there is nothing approaching a consensus, nor will there likely ever be.2601:47:4200:542:CAF7:33FF:FE77:D800 (talk) 21:55, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Please realize that many academics have an interest in making Kant's words seem to relate to logic and not to psychology. If Kant were to be thought of as claiming that he knew what innate ideas were in people's minds, then he would be dismissed as writing about psychology or subjective ideas. However, if he can be made to seem as though he was talking about logic, then he can be taken seriously as a philosopher today. Innate ideas are anathema. They are loathed and detested because they are claimed to be the inner contents of a mind, of which we can have no objective, certain knowledge.Lestrade (talk) 02:45, 15 August 2008 (UTC):estrade

I don't think it will necessarily help to explain the psychological leanings of the academics. Your comment suggests that academics are being intellectually dishonest because they have some kind of interest in making Kant more acceptable to others. Kant's critique cannot be reduced to psychology because that science is based on things that Kant's metaphysics puts in question. Kant's critique also cannot be reduced to logic because logic deals with statements, and statements are composed of words that refer to experience, to imagined experience, etc. Kant's philosophy is an attempt to sort out the structures of dependency that constitute ideas, observations, and statements about them. The contrast between "realism" and "idealism" then comes to the fore. The threatening question is, "Can we understand (make an entirely satisfactory account of) a system when we cannot look at the system from the outside? If we start with a naive (realistic) view of science, and that view indicates that one does not have the simple, objective, realistic view that science presupposes, then how can there be a properly grounded account of anything?

If we take the view of Newtonian physics and its implications as a first order of approximation, as I think Kant did, then we can ask how those ideas would work out in practice. What would the idea of mappings of characteristics of "things in themselves" onto light and other signals explain, and what would it leave out? One of the first thing that appears is that the human organism must have a function (in our modern terminology) that enables it to keep the incoming data in a coherent sequence. (If information came in like grains of corn falling from a spout into a grain elevator ("silo"), it would be randomized and somebody's birth and death could be side by side and that person's college life could be ten meters over and five meters down.)

Whitehead asked a very interesting question about space. He noted that most all people agree that there is an external space and that we can see things arranged in this external space, make maps that indicate the relationships of objects in this space that are acceptable to all observers, etc. So it seems that there is a "thing" called space and that objects are located in it, and that something could not exist in our usual understanding of that word if it did not have a location or series of locations in that space. Then, he asks, what is the ontological status of the space that we perceive in imagination and in dreams. That additional space, or those additional spaces, seem to depend on the mind and to be unrelated to the space that is intersubjective and consensual.

Entanglement in physics points to the possibility that our mentally constituted ideas of space can create problems in properly conceptualizing changes/interactions in the real world. Our ordinary experience of the world indicates to us very clearly that there is no "action at a distance." Even something that appears to be an effect caused on one thing by something that happens somewhere else will turn out to depend on interactions that pass through space and time. An electro-magnet initially has no effect on a steel plate at some distance from it. Throw the switch, and the plate is strongly accelerated toward the electromagnet. But we know that an electro-magnetic field was initiated, grew, and spread through space to interact with the plate. That is what all our everyday eperience teaches us.

But when two entangled photons are created and allowed to go off in different directions, so that observers would all agree that they are "spatially separated," a change produced by some physical operation performed on one of them will instantaneously produce a change in the other. Our conceptualization, our sense of their being individually located in remote parts of space, tells us that any change in one should behave as does any other change, i.e., some field or other physical change should move from one particle to the other, and it should move at no speed greater than the speed of light. But the entangled photons behave as they would if they were a single particle, a particle having a single location in space. To the human observer it looks like instantaneous interaction -- over any distance one might imagine

The logic of statements that are descriptive of quantum events is definitely not what one would expect on the basis of everyday experience. The basic idea behind ordinary logic is that if one says, "It is the case that XYZT" and one also says "It it not the case that XYZT," where "XYZT" is shorthand for some statement about what one would find in the real world at a certain space or range of space and a certain time or range of times, then you've basically said something and then "erased" it, and all that others can make out is that you have called their attention to XYZT. I think that Kant would agree that the human mind cannot act on the basis of statements that contradict each other.

What happens in quantum mechanics is instructive, and casts an unexpected light on the idea of logic. The problems to comprehension that present themselves are not contradictions in the area of logic as much as contradictions in the area of set theory. The scheme used in Venn diagrams suggests that there is a kind of conceptual "space," i.e., that we can map sets onto areas on a plane, and the areas will correspond to sets of entities, i.e., entities that fall under a certain definition. We are used to thinking of exclusive distinctions, "as different as black and white," so we could have one circle to represent all black objects and another circle to represent all white objects. We can deal with gray objects in a number of ways, explaining them as half-tone combinations of white areas and black areas, or as the result of mixtures of pigments made of molecules that are individually black or else white, and so forth. What we are not prepared to deal with are entities that can be found in both the "pure white" and the "pure black" circles. Our everyday experience is that if we investigate something such as a robin's egg we will find it to be robin's egg blue. If an egg is pure white then it cannot be a robin's egg -- and especially we will not find a single egg that different observations will determine to be different colors. If we were to find an egg that was put away white and turned out to be blue when reexamined a few minutes later, then we would look for Easter egg dye, trickery, or some other "logical" explanation.

What happens with atomic-scale objects is that they look like waves in air, water, or steel if we "ask them what they are" using certain techniques, and look like particles such as baseballs, bullets, or planets if we "ask them" using alternative techniques. If one allows that the statement,"This is a wave," is the logical equivalent to, "This is not a particle," then the physical situation says that it is true that, "This is a wave," and "This is not a wave." But that is probably an illegitimate implication. Anyway, the observation has frequently been made by the physicists that study these things that if you don't think this stuff is weird you don't even begin to understand it. And that kind of "does not compute" reaction seems to me to be consistent with Kant's ideas. Nature may be fine with this state of affairs, but humans cannot deal with it conceptually because they are not made in a way that allows them to do so. Is that an observation about "logic" or an observation about "psychology"? We can ground half of what we know about light in one set of experiences, and the other half in another set of experiences, but the two sets of evidence cannot be merged -- in the sense that a bag full of black billiard balls and white billiard balls would still contain the two separate kinds of balls no matter how they were arranged. The universe doesn't have any problem with merging the "thing in itself" behind our perceptions, but our minds have problems merging our experiences of whatever is "really out there." So what is really out there may have an unreliable connection to what we experience. P0M (talk) 06:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

"I don't think it will necessarily help to explain the psychological leanings of the academics." There are many books written by academics that explicitly state that Kant's philosophy is based on logic rather than psychology. "Your comment suggests that academics are being intellectually dishonest because they have some kind of interest in making Kant more acceptable to others." My comment suggests that to you but may not suggest that to someone else. Yours is a subjective, personal judgment of my comment.Lestrade (talk) 20:02, 9 November 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

Recent major changes

Somebody identified as "Lizardcry" has evidently added large numbers of citations in one or more blocks and then removed all of them in a series of edits. It appears that there are no real differences between what was there before, and what was there after these edits, but I could be wrong.

Anybody making such major changes should discuss them first in the Discussion page. P0M (talk) 05:12, 13 September 2008 (UTC)