Talk:Inchdrewer Castle/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Matty.007 (talk · contribs) 11:45, 23 March 2014 (UTC) OK, I will take a look at this over the next few days. Matty.007 11:45, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Please can you reply to issues with three tildes, which leaves only your name, so that the page doesn't get too clogged? Thanks, Matty.007 12:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Minor quibbles

Lead

• Para 2 needs expanding or merging I think, one sentence paras are frowned upon in general
• Perhaps merge intro para 4 and 3? I don't think the ghost thing requires its own paragraph, and the listed building could be added to 3 along the lines of Inchdrewer Castle was classified as a category A listed building in YEAR

I've merged the four lead paragraphs to two. SagaciousPhil - Chat

Early history

• The PDF ref 2 says construction could have been early to mid 1500's, whereas the article only mentions early 1500s

Changed to early to mid 16th century SagaciousPhil - Chat

• Is King usually capitalised as a title much like Professor or Doctor?

I think per MoS when it is being used generically it is lower case. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• Restoration work was once more undertaken: because of the fire?

Unfortunately, the references for this restoration work (and the subsequent ones queried below) don't specify dates, work undertaken or reasons - so I can't really clarify that - I haven't been able to find any sources with further detail about the works. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• Yet more restoration work was carried out during the later part of the century: because of war damage?

See above note. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• Abercromby was appointed: which one?

Changed to Sir Robert - I felt if I changed it to 'he' it remained confusing. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• dormant or extinct: do we not know which?

The ref used just states 'became extinct or dormant'. I've tried to check further in The Complete Peerage but that is also unclear stating: "Issue male of the 1st Lord became extinct, and the Peerage (if not extinct) became dormant." So it doesn't seem to be definitively known. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• The ground-floor plan given in the book shows two parts of the building as being "ruinous": then or now?

Could you clarify this query a little more for me, please? The previous sentence says the book was published in 1887? SagaciousPhil - Chat

More to follow. Matty.007 12:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Matty.007

I will have a further look at this later today hopefully, (the signing is good thanks, it makes it less cluttered). Thanks, Matty.007 14:06, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Late history

• although his undated drawings may not have been fully implemented: any info either way?

No, it is not known whether the drawings were actually used or not. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• but said she planned to restore it so it could be used for fashion shoots, as a film location: please source this (I presume it is the Mail on Sunday thing, but I added something in the middle)

I've shuffled the refs about a bit to cover this. Also added another ref (STV) for the price she reportedly paid. Most are a bit vague as it was marketed at "offers over £400,000". In Scotland it is generally a sealed bid situation for property sales and usually the price is well over the asking price (entirely different from the rest of the UK). SagaciousPhil - Chat

Architecture

• Starting as a basic L-shaped tower built from tooled ashlar dressed rubble: please can you clarify and add Wikilinks?
• corbelled battlemented wallheads: I have no idea what these are, is there any Wikilink/clarification that can be made please?
• In general, please add some more Wikilinks to this section

I've added some links but again these are fairly standard architectural terms/features. The only other thing I can think that might possibly be linked is fenestrations but that seems to go to a weird DAB (looks weird to me anyway)? SagaciousPhil - Chat

Superstition and haunting

• So the only thing to go on is the historian with regards to the ghost? That rather invalidates the lead, Modern day reports is not one bloke and a builder reporting to Vogue.

There are several reports:

• Ref #20 from the Sunday Times reads: "Lord Banff died in a fire in suspicious circumstances, and his spirit is thought to haunt the bastion."
• Ref #33 from the Mail on Sunday: "... was keen to meet its three resident ghosts, who supposedly include Lord Banff, who died in mysterious circumstances in a fire in 1713."
• Ref #35 from Nigel Tranter, a respected historian recapping his story and he claims it is backed up by a report in Vogue

SagaciousPhil - Chat

• Thanks. Matty.007

These are issues I have found reading through. Thanks, Matty.007 16:51, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

You may want to add this, calling it a "5 bedroomed castle". Matty.007 16:53, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Right Move is simply acting as a conduit for the selling agents, Ballantynes, whose marketing brochure is ref #2. Ballantynes brochure does not specify a number of bedrooms stating: "... prospective purchaser may wish to redesign the internal layout." so I don't really think we can reliably state it's five bedrooms. SagaciousPhil - Chat

Thanks. Matty.007

Things with info in you may want to add: [1], [2], I have found a few non-RS that say the ghost is Catherine Frankie, who was burned as a witch. Anything in a book? [3] is fairly interesting.

The Buildings at Risk register is already used as ref #21 and Scottish Castles is ref #27. SagaciousPhil - Chat

Whoops... I can't seen anything in the article about visits by Edward VII or the Duke of Fife, which may be interesting to add if there is more in depth info. Matty.007

The ghost of Catherine Frankie is actually supposed to haunt Abergeldie Castle (The Scotsman, 7 May 2012). If one of the non-RS sources you are looking at is the Web Historian, a heavily SEO site, that also gives Abergeldie Castle for Frankie's ghost but if you scroll away down to Inchdrewer, it also mentions the ghost of Ogilvie and the white dog story.

I was looking at [4], but if it's wrong that's fine. Matty.007

I've just looked at the somethingparanormal site you had linked here, Matty - it appears to be very confused as it lists it as Inchdrewer Castle, then starts off "Abergeldie Castle ..." So I think it's reliability is certainly dubious! SagaciousPhil - Chat

The Steeple Times piece you've linked doesn't seem to add any new info about the Castle? SagaciousPhil - Chat

Tha paragraph that begins "In 1746, the castle was attacked by the Duke of Cumberland" again mentions Edward and the Duke of Fife, which may be worthy of adding. Matty.007

I've been reluctant to include anything about the visits (it is also mentioned in the Ballantynes brochure), mainly because there don't seem to be any further specific details. Also Edward VII (1841-1910) and even the Alexander Duff, 1st Duke of Fife (1849-1912) could only have been visiting by a time the castle had begun to seriously deteriorate? SagaciousPhil - Chat

It's not really worth adding unless you can find something more specific than I did, i.e. when, why, what they did, were they together... Matty.007 17:05, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

tooled ashlar dressed rubble is near word for word from this, I don't know if they copied WP, or it is hard to re-word though. So, some things to be getting on with... Thanks, Matty.007 16:59, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

As far as I know that is standard phrasing - a slight variation of it would be "Rubble with tooled ashlar dressings" but that is then word for word with Historic Scotland. SagaciousPhil - Chat

That's fine, I just wasn't sure if re-phrasing was possible. Thanks, Matty.007

Thanks for your interesting comments Matty, it's very much appreciated! I've left off altering the lead at the moment so I can give it some further thought over night. SagaciousPhil - Chat

Review

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:

   No copyvios on the spotchecked refs

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. Has an appropriate reference section:

   B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   The main picture says that Lord Banff was murdered by his servants. Any RS to back this up for the article?

• Do you mean the photographer's description that was transferred over to Commons from Geograph? When I compiled the George Ogilvy, 3rd Lord Banff article the only reliable sources I could find about his murder were included in his article - (used as ref #3 (McKean) and ref #11 (Fry) in the Inchdrewer Castle article). There is a full quotation from the Statistical Accounts of Scotland in the Ogilvy article and it only states: "it was suspected that the persons in whose charge he had left the castle ... ... murdered him". Perhaps the photographer was inferring from that it was servants? So no, I'd say there isn't a reliable source to back it up. As far as I know, I don't think I'm permitted to change the photographers description. SagaciousPhil - Chat

1. B. Focused:

2. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

3. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

4. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

5. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Just the info on Lord Banff holding this up. I won't put this on hold, as I suspect you will be able to fix this today. Thanks, Matty.007 17:15, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

   Pass, well done! Thanks, Matty.007 17:49, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks, Matty - and thanks also for undertaking the review so promptly. Also, special thanks to Eric for all his help and the work he's put into the article; it achieving GA status is very much down to him. SagaciousPhil - Chat 18:06, 24 March 2014 (UTC)