Talk:Independence referendum

Punjab Referendum

Does a referendum conducted by expats or descendants of a region's citizens living abroad but not locals merit inclusion here? If Cuban- or Haitian-Americans had a vote on their ancestral countries becoming part of the United States, would it qualify for inclusion here like the Moldova referendum on maintaining independence in 1994? If it wouldn't, I can't think of a reason the Punjab referendum, which is not being organized by or planned to be held within Punjab, should be included here. It keeps being added and deleted without discussion, and I'd like discussion here. Astrofreak92 (talk) 15:15, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Punjab has no citizens. A referendum on Punjabis abroad seems meaningless, and should not be added unless reliable sources accredit it with meaning. CMD (talk) 01:44, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Punjab has residents, though. I mean Indians and/or Pakistanis resident in Punjab state India and/or Pakistan as well as neighboring states considered part of "punjab". But yes, given that it's not being conducted by or for locals I don't see why it's here. Astrofreak92 (talk) 01:49, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

@Astrofreak92: @Chipmunkdavis: @Number 57: History of Punjabi people and Sikhs in the Indian union should be considered here. From 1980s-1990s, Punjabis in Punjab demanded independence from India in retaliation Indian authorities attacked Amritsar (Operation Blue Star) and later committed a genocide. Punjabis in Punjab presented a memorandum for Independence from India to Mr Boutros-Boutros Ghali, the then UN Secretary-General in 1992 in New Delhi. Two political parties in Punjab (Akali Dal Mann and Dal Khalsa) are demanding independence, hence the movement for independence is active in the Punjab but when Punjab Referendum 2020 activists campaign in Punjab, India they are charged with war against India. Punjab isn't a free society, therefore the Punjabi diaspora residing in free societies are raising their voices for the people of Punjab.

Check out interview with Khalistan supporter, Jitendra Singh of Sikhs for Justice

114.109.50.238 (talk) 02:20, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

That's all interesting, but it is not an "independence referendum" under the definition used here. Astrofreak92 (talk) 03:25, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Agree with Astrofreak92 on this – this is not an independence referendum. Number 57 13:05, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Unrecognized future referendum

Actually, there is nothing in this page that says that those referendum can't be listed: the title section only says "scheduled", and the page show also unofficial referendum. In my opinion, they should be listed, maybe separate from the official ones, because they de facto exist, and they eventually will end up on the list anyway. I think we could also add the proposed ones (in yet another list).Ekø (talk) 10:32, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Which ones are you talking about? Number 57 11:25, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Flag of New Caledonia

The precedent all over the table is to use the flag the territory had at the time of the referendum, and only use a flag that was made later when the independence was approved. Cf Djibouti for example. For this reason, we use the dual flag of New Caledonia for the 2018 and 2020 referendums that ended in votes against independence.--Aréat (talk) 06:29, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Why you've removed the expert request? It is sarcastic that the national flag of a independence-seeking territory's parent state is used as the flag of the proposed state. Some of the proposed state flags used in the first column were/are banned by their parent states, I wouldn't call these flags legal territory flags. For the first column, national flags should not be used. If a territory did not have a purposely designed "new state flag" when it held the referendum, then no flags shall be used.

For Djibouti, their previous referendums happened long time ago, I don't know whether they had a purposely designed "new state flag" at that time, that's why I have requested for expert help.

Since New Caledonia does have a proposed state flag, this flag should be used in the the first column instead. I will edit the article according to the WP:NPOV principal, please don't make any more disruptive edits out of patriotic sentiment. Thank you. 120.16.177.83 (talk) 00:40, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

I removed your latest edit as you insist on removing the flag of New Caledonia to portray New Caledonia. You can then add the Expert call. The tricolor isn't just the flag of the parent state of the territory, it is the flag of the territory, of New Caledonia itself. The practise everywhere on the wiki has been to use the flag a country or territory use when the event happen. Check up any past election or referendum page, they will have the flag from back then, not the current one. Here, in case of independence, we make an exception by using the flag the territory later used once independent. But for territories in which there was no independence, we still use the flag they used at the time. There's no exception for New Caledonia. To use the FLNKS flag is only a source of confusion, making it appear like it is the flag of New Caledonia, when it isn't.--Aréat (talk) 00:54, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

You still don't understand. The first column is supposed to be describing the proposed new states and their proposed state flags, it got nothing to do with their official territory flags. As for the national flags of their parent states, they have already been listed under the "Former State" column, there is no need to repeat this information. 120.16.177.83 (talk) 01:00, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Your argument that only the official flags of the territories should be used has been refuted by me. The inclusion of the proposed state flags of West Papua and Kurdistan, both deemed illegal and banned by their respective parent states, has clearly indicated that your argument is invalid.

Please familiarise yourself with the rules of Wikipedia and understand the fact that when exsiting information is challenged and edited then it must be discussed. This is exactly what I have done, please don't treat this page like your personal blog, otherwise you could be reported for misconduct. Please learn the rules of Wikipedia before you start making edits to this site.

I will restore the article to the last NPOV version, please don't enforce your version without reaching consensus first. Thank you. 120.16.177.83 (talk) 01:48, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

That's not what has been shown in the column for years. You're only unilateraly making it so today now that I've pointed out to you that the column isn't about proposed state flags. Please stop doing those nonconsensual changes to the article when the discussion is still ongoing here.

You've refuted nothing : as said before, those aren't the flags of the parent state, but of the territory.--Aréat (talk) 02:29, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

I would agree that it seems as a general principle that if flags are used, they should be the official flag of the polity in question during the time period in question. Many states may not have proposed flags. That said, another solution may be removing flags altogether, per the caution advised at MOS:FLAG. CMD (talk) 02:46, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

As a general principal, yes, but it is clearly not applicable to this article, particularly the table in question. The first column of the table clearly states "Proposed State". In my opinion, if an independence-seeking territory has a proposed state flag, then this flag should be used. If this territory has no proposed state flag or has an unknown proposed state flag, then no flag should be used. It's highly unlikely that the official territory flag will be retained if the territory gained independence from its parent state. I am happy to keep any official territory flags in the first column if Aréat can provide RS supporting that these flags will be retained as the national flag by those "new states".

As shown in his latest reply, Aréat's attitude towards this discussion has become impatient and unconstructive. I've checked the history of this article, there had been multiple attempts by various users to insert the appropriate proposed state flags in the first column, but Aréat reverted all those edits almost immediately, a typical behaviour by a Wiki ball hog who enforces his WP:POINT in an article. Since He has reverted my edits more than 3 times, I am not going to engage in an edit war with him. I will make a request for expert opinion and gather a wider view from the community before taking any action. 120.16.177.83 (talk) 06:16, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

The general principle can be applicable to this article. If you want to propose a removal of all flags that's a different discussion than just showing one flag for New Caledonia. I suspect that suggestion may be tricky, as referendums may come long before any flag changes. It isn't historically rare for countries to keep flags upon independence, even the FLNKS New Caledonia flag is one that's already in use. CMD (talk) 06:45, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Maybe you haven't got time to read all the posts above, I already said that official territory flags are not applicable for the first column, as evidenced by the inclusion of the proposed state flags of West Papua and Kurdistan. These flags clearly aren't official territory flags. 120.16.177.83 (talk) 07:23, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Both had/have status. The West Papua flag obtained official status in 1961, and the Kurdistan flag is official in Iraqi Kurdistan. If the timing is off you are correct that they should be changed. CMD (talk) 07:49, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Official status in Indonesia or the breakaway region? I would love to read more info about these entities. 120.16.177.83 (talk) 08:06, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Didn't read the entire discussion. If there is no flag, just leave it blank imo. Beshogur (talk) 07:55, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

In both exemple of West Papua and Kurdistan, one can see the "proposed state"'s flag is absent from the infobox of the referendum articles we're linking toward. Again, those are quite strictly maintained, and I've always seen used in election infoboxes the flag of the country/territory at the exact time an election or referendum took place. Considering the whole argument here stem from the use of "Proposed state" in the column, it seem to me it would be far simpler to have it changed to "Territory up for independence", and the "Former country" to "Country the territory is or was part of" (it's not former for the dozens of referendum which resulted in no independence, after all). Rather than deeply change the page with removal of dozens of flags, or the removal of all of them--Aréat (talk) 23:17, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Possible future plans

Proposed state	Date	Current state	Recognition	Notes
Malaita	?	Solomon Islands	No	Announced by the premier of the Malaita Province on September 1, 2020, due to the government's recent decision to recognize the People's Republic of China as opposed to the Republic of China. However, the National Government of the Solomon Islands declared this referendum illegal a few days later, under the Provincial Act [of] 1997.
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic	?	Morocco (de facto)	Yes	Referendum on independence, as proposed by MINURSO, could be held some day.
Scotland	19 October 2023	United Kingdom	?	Prime Minister Nicola Sturgeon announced on March 13, 2017, her will to call for a new referendum on independence.
Greenland	2021	Kingdom of Denmark	?	Separatist government led by the Inuit Ataqatigiit party has repeatedly expressed the need for full political independence from Denmark. Some activists pointed to 2021 (the 300th anniversary of Danish rule) as the potential date of independence.
New Caledonia	2022	France	Yes	As stipulated in the Noumea agreement, if a third of the members of the Congress of New Caledonia demand it after the victory of the "no" in the second referendum of 2020, a third referendum, within two years and relating to the same question will be arranged within eighteen months of this request. Congress has yet to vote to pass it.
Tokelau	2025	New Zealand	?

Is it a good idea?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.192.68.53 (talk) 08:07, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

No. Many of these are overly speculative (Greenland, Tokelau), are a one-off mention (the Malaita one seems to have been a threat in September 2020 and barely mentioned since), or will only happen if agreed by the local legislature (New Caledonia). Such a section would also probably attract a lot of unofficial campaigns like the Khalistan one. For these reasons, I think we should only include actual agreed/scheduled referendums. Number 57 12:23, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

References

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Donbass

@Beshogur: There is no reliable source supporting the claim that the picture really shows the Donbass referendum. In the case of most pics on WP, this is no problem. But here we are talking about a highly controversial action in the middle of a war. The picture has a message, the message of a high participation in a well organized referendum. And that message is POV. Rsk6400 (talk) 05:08, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@Rsk6400: as far I know, people can upload their own works. We should ask @Butko: about this. Why would he lie about the location and date? I would like to hear its comment as well. Beshogur (talk) 21:47, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

All photos in commons:Category:Referendum in Donetsk, 2014-05-11 were taken by me. They were taken in Donesk on the 11th of May 2014. You can see date in EXIF and in upload date. In some photos you can see ballot papers related to event. You can compare them with ballot papers from other sources. In some photos you can see school plaques related to location --butko (talk) 11:02, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Beshogur (talk) 11:19, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Please keep the discussion focused. I didn't say or imply that Butko was lying. I was just reminding you of a core principle of WP, All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material. (from WP:V). An editor's testimony doesn't qualify as WP:RS, as I'm sure you know. Rsk6400 (talk) 12:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

What do you mean an editor's testimony. Those pictures are used all over the wikipedia. If I take picture of anything, and I want to upload on wikimedia as my own work, am I not allowed to that? Those pictures seem legit as Butko explained. You should nominate them for deletion on wikimedia if you think they're not accurate, instead of removing it from particular article, while it still remains on other 99 articles. The picture has a message, the message of a high participation in a well organized referendum. And that message is POV Isn't a valid reason either. Butko can show that these pictures were taken at that time, and ballot papers are present. What do you mean with "the message"? Beshogur (talk) 13:38, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

You never answered to my central point: Everything in an article must be referenced to reliable sources if it can be reasonably challenged. The claim that the picture shows the Donbass referendum is not referenced to reliable sources. Rsk6400 (talk) 15:33, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Well, his pictures are pretty much verifiable. No need to play such games. Beshogur (talk) 20:52, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

My attempt at dispute resolution Failed due to an editor refusing to participate in any constructive discussion. (WP:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_222#Independence_referendum). Since you said, Well I'm not saying this should stay here, I'll now try to implement one of the attempts at compromise I made there. If you revert again, I'll have to start an RfC with a question like "Are EXIF-data sufficient to ensure verifiability of photographs illustrating a highly controversial subject ?" Rsk6400 (talk) 07:33, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Russian referendums

"Referendums" on the independence of five Russian regions were held online by a Ukrainian politician. [1] Should these be added to the list? Nonsense referendums, of course, but there is already a precedent of unofficial and/or online referendums on the list. ProjectHorizons (talk) 23:41, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

What are the current precedents? The example that springs to mind for me is the 2014 Venetian independence referendum, which does not seem to be on the list. I'd prefer to remove existing online polls than add new ones. CMD (talk) 02:22, 5 March 2023 (UTC)