Talk:Instant-runoff voting/Archive 10

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Lead

@Closed Limelike Curves, IRV is not my favorite form of voting either and is overhyped but I still think the article should not take such a strong stance against it when there are reliable sources that clearly dispute many of your points. This is not the first article where this has been an issue. Let me know if you have any questions on the flags that were added Superb Owl (talk) 05:16, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi,

sadly have to agree. Statements like "The method has had little academic support in social choice theory since the field's inception" or "Modern research into voting systems has instead tended to focus on majority-choice and rated voting systems" just do not seem like correct statements about modern social choice theory. I decided to delete that paragraph for now, as I think it is too far removed from being neutral or even true. Jannikp97 (talk) 09:16, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

If you disagree, I'd be happy to see citations to sources showing strong support for IRV among social choice theorists. I've added the Laslier 2012 poll showing a majority of polled academics in the field disapproving of IRV.

I'm struggling to think of a single social choice theorist who considers IRV better than both Condorcet and cardinal methods. Sure, there's plenty of disagreement in the field about the relative value of these two classes, but I don't think I've ever seen someone with substantial experience in the field who thinks IRV is better than both sets of rules. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 19:10, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

You consistently try to equate IRV with plurality and refuse to add any context that considers that IRV could be an improvement upon plurality (very well sourced). It is true that condorcet and cardinal methods probably are an improvement to IRV, but that does not justify scrubbing its advantages over plurality using imprecise language to inflate or distort conclusions from the articles you cite Superb Owl (talk) 19:12, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not particularly interested in trying to "equate" IRV with plurality or "scrubbing" anything off of any page. Describing two voting rules as being similar isn't violating NPOV if they're similar – both rules share a similar philosophy (based on counting how a single vote travels across candidates, with FPP being the case of a single round, 2RS two rounds, and IRV infinitely many). Both have similar end results (e.g. center squeeze). I'm still in the process of editing this and spoiler effect, which is why I'd agree with you that they're lacking some nuance right now. In particular, the similarity between FPP and IRV depends strongly on assumptions about voting behavior:

• If you have fully honest voting and a many-party system (like in the United Kingdom), the two rules behave very differently, and IRV substantially reduces the rate of spoiled elections and bias towards extreme candidates.
• If voters act strategically, or if you have a two-party system, IRV and FPP behave very similarly. This is because IRV simulates the effect of strategic voting on the outcome. A reasonable/basic model of FPP strategic voting would be "If I see a candidate in last place, I abandon them and support someone else to avoid wasting my vote." This produces the same end result as IRV.
• If there is already a first round of winnowing, e.g. by parties, the differences become substantially smaller, because the number of candidates shrinks so there's less opportunities for clones to crop up.

I think all of these details should be reflected in the article, and I'm in the process of trying to integrate these. You're completely right that these articles are imperfect and don't reflect every nuance I've laid out above the way I'd like them to.

If you have disagreements with the phrasing of this article or how precise it is, that's perfectly fine. I've leaned more towards WP:EVENTUALISM here, adding information I think is important and relevant before focusing on phrasing it perfectly.

On the other hand, I'm not happy with the way this thread has devolved into personal attacks and accusations of bias, on the basis of an edit I think is a reasonable summary of the sources. If you disagree, that's ok, but focus on these specific disagreements. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 20:11, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Now the elephant in the room becomes more visible. If you are viewing everything only in terms of how it relates to a British parliamentary system where every district elects one representative from one party, then any distortions caused by the choice of voting system are going to be dwarfed by the choice of that political system. All systems have distortions; I am not saying the British parliamentary system is a bad choice, only that it is a specific application of voting that leads to specific desiderata. If you are going to use IRV in a very different context, for instance to determine the winner of a major annual artistic award, then the desiderata are going to be different. For instance, for the artistic award, a polarizing candidate might be a better choice (as judged by later historians of the subject) than a safe choice that nobody is excited by. For political leadership, the opposite might be true. What our article needs to do is, neutrally and based on good sources, to describe how different systems affect the outcome in different ways, without interpolating our own value judgements or parochial political concerns about those effects.—David Eppstein (talk) 20:50, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Not really interested into turning this into a "petty" fight :D Support for rules or "rankings" of rules is not really the output of research. While I agree that several people would probably prefer Condorcet rules to IRV, I know that this is (i) not true for all and (ii) not really something measurable or citeable one can or should put into the lead of this article. Further, in the paper you mentioned here, IRV is actually the second most approved rule, ahead of Copeland or range voting. (not that this is really relevant) Jannikp97 (talk) 19:39, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I reverted another round of edits in the lead which do not seem to have been more objective than yesterday's. We might need to take this to arbitration Superb Owl (talk) 18:03, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

It is also my strong impression that CLC's edits on voting systems in general are in violation of WP:NPOV. See also Template:Did you know nominations/Highest averages method. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:08, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

David: If you think I was being biased in that thread, I'd like to know what apportionment rule I was showing bias in favor of. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 19:14, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

If after that long discussion you still do not understand my repeated comments there about how you should not describe a rounding method as being a bad method because (like all rounding methods) it results in rounding inaccuracies, then there is no hope that saying the same thing here will lead to a constructive outcome. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:16, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Where did I describe any rounding method as being a bad method? – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 19:18, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

We could start with the phrasing "failure to use the correct rounding procedure" in one of the initially proposed hooks. Note the loaded words "failure" and "correct". —David Eppstein (talk) 19:28, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

And as I repeatedly clarified, "correct" meant "the one enshrined into the law". I quickly edited it to remove that once you pointed out I'd made a mistake, and it was Hamilton's rule (rather than Webster's) that had been enshrined in law. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 20:13, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I have not seen an openness to learning and evolving Superb Owl (talk) 19:20, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I continue to see sweeping edits that do not attempt to moderate language or address flags raised and no interest in working up from the body to the lead or in a more moderated or collaborative approach Superb Owl (talk) 17:08, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@Closed Limelike Curves I did an exhaustive cleanup of the body of the text - anything with a flag on it will be removed in a week if still there. If you want to help improve this article we really need consensus in the body before we touch the lead. I agree the lead needs to explain the downsides but also the upsides and we can't know how much weight to give each until the body has reliable sourcing and has been worked on by multiple editors Superb Owl (talk) 17:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

The material I've added to the lead is a summary of already-present material in the article's body. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 17:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Mention of mathematical properties in article

(cc @Jannikp97, @Jasavina, and @CRGreathouse for comment as regular electoral systems article contributors)

I understand there's some questions about the precise phrasing, but I think my most recent attempt at the lead provided a decent, well-sourced summary of mathematical properties and research covered in this article. There's certainly some room for improvement, but I doubt this merited a complete reversion. WP:SUMMARYSTYLE mandates a lead should cover all the major topics of the article, and a discussion of the mathematical properties of RCV-IRV is definitely a major part of this article and important enough to get coverage. The properties I discussed here are the same ones discussed in basically every Wiki article on voting systems. These include IIA, independence of clones, monotonicity, participation, and Condorcet.

@Superb Owl's most recent edit went substantially further:

1. In some cases, removing claims because one of several sources was less-than-perfect (e.g. newspaper articles or press releases by social choice theorists), despite the same claim also being sourced by stronger citations to scholarly journals. Citations that are not "load bearing" (i.e. included only for additional explanation or clarification) do not weaken the overall strength of sourcing for the claim. If a claim has multiple citations (some good and some bad), you can arguably remove the less-solid citations, but not the claim itself.
2. The summary of empirical research by political scientists, including the comprehensive report of the Electoral Reform Research Group that got no pushback when it was only in the body and not the lead, has been deleted.

The combined effect of these changes is to push any on the pros and cons of IRV deep into the bottom of the article, where readers won't find it. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 17:40, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

My issues are 1) You do not write in a way that is easily understood by a lay reader. It is too technical and makes things more confusing. Maybe some other editors can help explain what you are trying to do in a more accessible way. You also have 25% authorship of this article and it could really use fresh eyes and perspectives to make it understandable to a wider audience. 2) You seem to be cherry-picking studies and conclusions by primary sources for the lead are also disputed by reliable secondary sources in the body. You also make claims that are not WP:Verifiable or are WP:Synthesis. There needs to be nuance even if your positions against IRV are most likely to be the most common among experts. 3) The body of the article was a complete disaster and I spent an hour or two cleaning it up just now. The best way to know what to put in the lead is to have a body that is well-developed with solid sourcing. Superb Owl (talk) 17:47, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any cases where the material in the lead is contradicted by a reliable secondary source in the body.

1. There seem to be a few situations where the material in the lead contradicts commentary by non-reliable or partisan sources in the body (e.g. FairVote), but in this case the body should be edited to remove material supported only by unreliable sources. Published scholarly articles are substantially more reliable than press releases put out by advocacy groups for a particular policy.
2. The lead relies heavily on secondary sources, including review articles (e.g. the ERRG report summarizing all the empirical research on this topic) and review/summary sections taken from papers in social choice.
3. In cases where individual studies are cited, I make sure to include multiple such studies to show I'm not cherry-picking. You can read the summary sections of these articles if you'd like, which include an overview of the whole topic; there's no substantial dispute about any of the mathematical or statistical properties I'm bringing up.
4. I'm happy to add any positive findings you can find by social choice theorists in peer-reviewed social choice journals. If you think there's positive aspects or studies on IRV that I'm not discussing, you're free to look those up and show it, but excluding all discussion of pros and cons simply because the majority of research has found isn't nuance, it's WP:FALSEBALANCE and failing to give WP:DUE weight. So far as I can tell, the properties I've surveyed are widely-studied, discussed in many papers, and are discussed in every Wikipedia article on voting systems (including this one).

– Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 18:24, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Let's hear what others have to say. Your edits have been controversial to say the least on a number of related articles Superb Owl (talk) 18:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

A few thoughts, though admittedly I haven't done a close read of everything yet (and I'm just looking at the current state, not actually examining the changes). I also haven't evaluated what is sourced or evaluated whether the sources or adequate.

1. Language is too technical in some places. "Pathology" "Partial results exist" are a few that jumped out right away.
2. There seems to be a good bit of redundancy.
   • The "Comparison to other voting systems" section seems to be better placed on a different page, such as ranked voting since only one row is actually about IRV.
   • The information in the IRV row of "Comparisons to other voting systems" seems to be redundant with the "Voting Methods Criteria". Perhaps just keep the IRV row of the table, and get rid of the Criteria section? Anything from the criteria section that needs to stay could probably be folded into the Properties, Advantages, Disadvantages section.
   • It seemed weird to have a Criteria section separate from a Properties. It also seems weird to have a Comparison to other systems section and a Similar Methods section.
3. The last two paragraphs of the "Process" section seem to be criticisms and belong in a different section.

Hopefully this "drive by commentary" is more helpful than annoying. meamemg (talk) 19:47, 3 September 2024 (UTC)