Talk:Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change/Archive 6
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These articles related to global change are a mess
The section title says it all. When one reads articles related to global change on Wikipedia he finds a redundant mess of opinions which leaves the reader confused, and witha slight sensation that the issue is not a scientific, but a political one. Which is exactly what DETRACTORS of the issue want: to degrade it from a risk worth to be studied and tackled till there's time to avoid disaster to a Communist mental jerkoff, forgive the profanity.
Instead of reporting any single word from anyone connected, those who carry the burden of editing these articles should carefully concentrate on solid facts. I'm not a stupd and know even too well that often science becomes matter of opinion or dogma (see the Big Bang and black holes mantra in cosmology, which is actually influenced by a Western monotheistic religious view), but this issue has to do with human basic survival. Global warming is only a piece of a more genral debate about a simple concept: we have only one Earth and cannot waste it. Resources are not infinite, and they'll soon finish if we go along this way still for some DECADES. And that's all. That's not ideology. That's mathematics.
User:Basil II 12:59, 12 October 2007 (CET)
I have to agree. Work needs to be done on these articles.141.155.133.231 16:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Basil have you considered the simplest solution? Maybe this mess is exactly what looks like? Have you considered the possibility that this article is entirely accurate when describing a redundant, non-scientific political mess? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.232.174 (talk) 13:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes I did. And I concluded as above, that SOMEONE wants the matter to appear in that (dim) light. I'm not THAT stupid, and do not believe anything that is said easily, even in regards to global warming.
User:Basil II 12:59, 12 October 2007 (CET)
"this issue has to do with human basic survival..." This is not a place for world crusades whereupon you manipulate these articles to influence people with your opinions. This is an encyclopedia that ideally should state facts from a neutral standpoint. The one place where a reader can trust the source to have a neutral viewpoint (non-argumentative or opinionated bias). You clearly have a viewpoint, and your intent for editing these article is not for improvement content/quality of the article itself but rather for what you perceive to be "human basic survival". Please do not edit this article with such intentions in mind. --99.253.227.126 (talk) 06:12, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Recent reverts over "scientific" body
Please see the above section. Reliable sources like the Royal Society and the BBC call it a "scientific body". We could overreference this to death, but there really is no need beyond the one reference given. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- BBC journalists are not matter experts and thus don't count. I don't see a link to the specific Royal Society endorsement of IPCC's scientific claims. --Unconcerned (talk) 16:23, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- The BBC is a WP:RS and very much counts. See [1] for the Royal Society: "authoritative scientific organisations, such as the IPCC". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- Then I suggest you include the RS document as your external ref for the "scientific" claim in the first paragraph instead of IPCC's self description. The BBC news feature still doesn't count, sorry, I doubt Mr Roger Harrabin employs elements of the scientific method on a daily basis. And by the way threatening with a block or simply "being bored" with me will never count as solid arguments. --Unconcerned (talk) 16:45, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- If you doubt that the BBC is a RS, I suggest you take it up with WP:RSN. Of course a reporter is not a subject matter expert, but he is (supposed to be) an expert in getting the facts right. The IPCC itself is a reliable source, also for it's own description - after all, it has an international and public mandate, and a transparent process. That's why we deem that source sufficient. And I did not "threaten" you with a block, I gave you what I consider a polite form of a standard WP:3RR warning, as you seem to be unaware of that rule. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:50, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- What Stephan said. Unconcerned's edits are meritless, disruptive, and contribute nothing to this article. Raul654 (talk) 16:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- I really don't care about the entire battery of acronyms nor the fact that some or all of the reverters are admins. I have exposed my rationale from the first edit and have the expectation to be met with the same courtesy. Disagreement is natural and unless you have the patience to provide sensible arguments, a simple revert is an act of vandalism. --Unconcerned (talk) 17:06, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- What Stephan said. Unconcerned's edits are meritless, disruptive, and contribute nothing to this article. Raul654 (talk) 16:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- If you doubt that the BBC is a RS, I suggest you take it up with WP:RSN. Of course a reporter is not a subject matter expert, but he is (supposed to be) an expert in getting the facts right. The IPCC itself is a reliable source, also for it's own description - after all, it has an international and public mandate, and a transparent process. That's why we deem that source sufficient. And I did not "threaten" you with a block, I gave you what I consider a polite form of a standard WP:3RR warning, as you seem to be unaware of that rule. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:50, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- Then I suggest you include the RS document as your external ref for the "scientific" claim in the first paragraph instead of IPCC's self description. The BBC news feature still doesn't count, sorry, I doubt Mr Roger Harrabin employs elements of the scientific method on a daily basis. And by the way threatening with a block or simply "being bored" with me will never count as solid arguments. --Unconcerned (talk) 16:45, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- The BBC is a WP:RS and very much counts. See [1] for the Royal Society: "authoritative scientific organisations, such as the IPCC". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- If your point is that since the IPCC doesn't do research per se, it isn't scientific, it's clearly an obscurantist one. Not all scientific documents highlight new findings. There are many scientific journals which deal solely in reviews of the literature (i.e. no new science), and the IPCC's reports can be viewed as representing a (much) more tailored or specialised version of these. On top of that, the IPCC is drawn from the scientists that are doing the underlying work. Essentially, the IPCC is jobbing scientists summarising "proper" (in your sense) science (plus, of course, creating more simplified forms for political/general consumption). To remove "scientific" from descriptions of the IPCC will serve only to muddy the waters. Or is that what you're after? --PLUMBAGO 17:22, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- Scientific reviews will necessarily cover the entire range of research, not just "papers that agree with me and my buddies". I don't see that range in IPCC's work. Nowhere else in Science do scientists form a political body to "interpret" the "proper" science in a "simpler" form for "political/general consumption". While they laudably admit to not doing own research, they wander in your muddy waters with other claims. Telling the story of one's research inquiry is not science per se. Long story short, I am only crossing t's and dotting i's in an attempt to clear your muddy water. Honesty will always weigh more than any unsubstantiated claim. Cheers--Unconcerned (talk) 17:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- And you sure have a long list of peer-reviewed papers relevant to the topic but ignored by the IPCC? Do you know that all comments to the IPCC drafts are out in the open, with replies on how and why they were incorporated or discarded? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for the red herring. Of course I don't have the complete, long list of ignored papers. This however does not make IPCC's work any more scientific. Have a good day. --Unconcerned (talk) 18:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- And you sure have a long list of peer-reviewed papers relevant to the topic but ignored by the IPCC? Do you know that all comments to the IPCC drafts are out in the open, with replies on how and why they were incorporated or discarded? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- Scientific reviews will necessarily cover the entire range of research, not just "papers that agree with me and my buddies". I don't see that range in IPCC's work. Nowhere else in Science do scientists form a political body to "interpret" the "proper" science in a "simpler" form for "political/general consumption". While they laudably admit to not doing own research, they wander in your muddy waters with other claims. Telling the story of one's research inquiry is not science per se. Long story short, I am only crossing t's and dotting i's in an attempt to clear your muddy water. Honesty will always weigh more than any unsubstantiated claim. Cheers--Unconcerned (talk) 17:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- If your point is that since the IPCC doesn't do research per se, it isn't scientific, it's clearly an obscurantist one. Not all scientific documents highlight new findings. There are many scientific journals which deal solely in reviews of the literature (i.e. no new science), and the IPCC's reports can be viewed as representing a (much) more tailored or specialised version of these. On top of that, the IPCC is drawn from the scientists that are doing the underlying work. Essentially, the IPCC is jobbing scientists summarising "proper" (in your sense) science (plus, of course, creating more simplified forms for political/general consumption). To remove "scientific" from descriptions of the IPCC will serve only to muddy the waters. Or is that what you're after? --PLUMBAGO 17:22, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
(Decrease indent) Hmmmm, "papers that agree with me and my buddies"? Consult any issue of any major science journal and you'll see paper after paper that supports the IPCC and their buddies (directly or indirectly). In fact, you'll even find papers that say that the IPCC are dangerously conservative in their acceptance of evidence (as there have been over its predictions for sea-level rise). Were there any evidence against the broad case presented by the IPCC then scientists would be crushed in the rush to claim the fame and kudos from publishing such evidence. There are few things more tempting to a scientist than an apple-cart waiting to be upset. To suggest otherwise, to imply that the case made by the IPCC is a conspiracy of vested interests, is simply absurd, and overlooks both the accumulated scientific evidence and the plain self-interest of individual scientists. Cheers, --PLUMBAGO 20:51, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- There are several, very prominent climate scientists who are frequently publishing results that are not in line with the "consensus", yet --as someone put it-- their work gets discarded by this political body. I assume you have studied both sides of the "consensus" and already know who I'm talking about. A honest scientific intepretation of climate data will show what some well trained researchers call error bars, or confidence intervals. For some reason any attempt at putting IPCC's decrees in the perspective of actual uncertainty in data acquisition, data reconstruction and model extrapolation is discarded and never even mentioned in the final documents. The hockey stick controversy would never have become a controversy if actual science were used in composing that diagram. By not following simple science protocol, the messages our reputable climate scientists are trying to convey becomes simple political slogans. --Unconcerned (talk) 03:33, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Reliable sources, anecdotal evidence, and common-sense arguments have all been put forward supporting the use of the adjective "scientific", with little more than a single editor's personal feelings against it. There is no need for this thread to continue. -RunningOnBrains(talk page) 01:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- There is no original research, nor personal feeling, in observing that not doing science is not science. I do however accept the Royal Society as a reliable source even if I personally disagree with their "scientific" qualifier. However, if you followed closely the editing dispute, that reference was missing.--Unconcerned (talk) 03:33, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing that out. Problem solved, ref fixed, case closed.--CurtisSwain (talk) 09:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
- There is no original research, nor personal feeling, in observing that not doing science is not science. I do however accept the Royal Society as a reliable source even if I personally disagree with their "scientific" qualifier. However, if you followed closely the editing dispute, that reference was missing.--Unconcerned (talk) 03:33, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Edit warring
The ongoing edit war here has been mentioned on this thread at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring and at this thread on Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Could I suggest a bit more decorum and, at the very least, discussion on this subject, and less edit warring? --TS 02:00, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Discussions as far as i'm aware have been ongoing over the whole period - it started at the 4AR article (see above). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 02:21, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- I could care less where it started, and I didn't even know it "started" at that article, but the fact of the matter is that your friend is using the EXACT same excuses to keep it out of that article too. The evidence demonstrates that you and your friends don't want this information in any articles. TheGoodLocust (talk) 02:34, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- These assumptions of bad faith ("you and your friends," et al) are unacceptable. Please comment on the content, not the editors. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:49, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- It a verifiable fact that they are friends from looking at their facebook pages - linked from their own profiles. It is also a verifiable fact that they've been citing every wiki-policy they can think of, for 6+ years, to "maintain the integrity of wikipedia." Of course, you automatically assume that I'm assuming bad faith - are these facts so damning that their revelation can only be "assuming bad faith?"
I'm glad you think so. TheGoodLocust (talk) 02:59, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
KimDabelsteinPetersen has been repeatedly deleting the contribution from TheGoodLocust, citing WP:UNDUE. An article about the IPCC ought to cover the major aspects and characteristics of the IPCC. One of the most significant aspects of the IPCC is its accuracy. When that accuracy is called into question with good evidence to demonstrate a lack of accuracy, then that evidence is significant to the character of the IPCC, and WP:UNDUE does not apply - indeed the very opposite applies - this is signficant information about the character of the IPCC that needs greater weight than mere appendage to the section "Criticism of IPCC". Cadae (talk) 07:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Why is this edit war still ongoing when there is a discussion here? The sources are well founded and the additions are pertinant to the article. I fail to see why there is a problem with this inclusion. mark nutley (talk) 11:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
The point seems to be to make edits so difficult that they can only be accomplished with much hassle and outside mediation - I think it drives a lot of people away from wikipedia. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:18, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Use of Non-Peer Reviewed Sources and the Himalayan Glaciers
Here is the section that I wrote up to be included in the criticisms of the IPCC:
--- Use of Non-Peer-reviewed Literature and the Himalayan Glaciers
The IPCC's 4th report has been criticized by Professor J Graham Cogley for using three reports, by the World Wildlife Fund, UNESCO, and the magazine New Scientist, none of which were peer-reviewed, to make the case that the Himalayan glaciers would melt by the year 2035. When the original source was tracked down he found that they had misstated both the year and the effect - the original source, by a M. Kuhn, states that the year was actually 2350, and that the Himalayan glaciers would be intact at that time. IPCC lead author Murari Lal claims there was no mistake about the glacial melt, but admits they didn't use peer-reviewed papers - breaking an IPCC mandate. [1]
The IPCC's assessment of melting Himalayan glaciers has also been criticized as being "horribly wrong," according to John Shroder a Himalayan glacier specialist at the University of Nebraska. According to Shroder, the IPCC jumped to conclusions based on insufficient data. Additionally, Donald Alford, a hydrologist, asserts that his water study for the World Bank demonstrates that the Ganges River only gets 3-4% of its water from glacial sources - casting doubt on the claim that the river would dry up since its primary source of water comes from rainfall. [2] Finally, Michael Zemp, from the World Glacier Monitoring Service, has stated that the IPCC has caused "major confusion" on the subject, that, under IPCC rules they shouldn't have published their statements, and that he knows of no scientific references that would've confirmed their claims.[3] ---
I encourage anyone who reads this to appropriately add the section if you think more people would benefit from knowledge than from ignorance. TheGoodLocust (talk) 06:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- It is still WP:UNDUE, you are still focusing on one bad information from a report that contains several thousands of such. There is no doubt that it is wrong - but it is a factoid projected far beyond its prominence. It could be mentioned in the article on Retreat of glaciers since 1850 where it would be on-topic and due. But certainly not in its current form which is extremely one-sided. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 12:03, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Kim is correct: both that the substance (2035/2350) is correct and that this is UNDUE. Also, the bit about the Ganges is not very relevant here. And you've been rather partial with your quotation from Zemp. Incidentally, the bit about not using PR papers is funny, given the spetic desire to re-instate fig 7.1c from the '90 report William M. Connolley (talk) 12:10, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Sorry kim and will, this is not one sided, it is fact. Encyclopaedias deal in facts. There is a section in the article which praises this report, so were is the undue weight in a section which has found flaws in said report? It is called balance. Also undue weight is about viewpoints, not facts. This addition is well sourced and pertinant to the article. Once again you are letting your personal points of view get in the way. mark nutley (talk) 12:13, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- An encyclopaedia deals in pertinent facts, this is not such - it is not an indiscriminate collection random factoids. This is a cherry-pick blown out of proportion. And that is exactly what our policy on neutral point of view (the undue part) is about. Now there (as i said) may be articles where this is within due weight, but a general article on the IPCC (or the AR4) is not the place. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:04, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- The pertinent fact at issue is the reliability of the IPCC and its reports. The incorrect dates indicate that the IPCC reports cannot be given the weight attributed to them. They must be viewed with some suspicion as the IPCC have not adhered to their own stated policy. This is pertinent to the characterisation of the IPCC, and WP:UNDUE doesn't apply. Defending the IPCC in the face of this error is not WP:NPOV. Cadae (talk) 13:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry - but an error in one paragraph is an extremely large report (several thousand pages) does not merit weight to this, nor does it merit that we "view [them with] some suspicion", especially not since we have most of the worlds scientific bodies backing up the reports (with none saying otherwise) What seems more the case here is that some are willing to "make a feather into 5 hens" --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:08, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- The IPCC have failed to adhere to their own policy, leading to an error of fact. This has significance beyond a simple factual error - it indicates poor management and a lack of process control - thus affecting the veracity of their reports. The very existence of this process break-down and factual error may well cause the "worlds scientific bodies" to reconsider their support of the IPCC reports. Your appeal to the authority of the "worlds scientific bodies" backing the reports is a self-serving argument - you've assumed your own conclusion that they won't give this error any weight Cadae (talk) 14:44, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, review failed for one paragraph of a several thousand pages document, that happens, so what? And i do get that you apparently have very strong feelings on the subject - but that doesn't make it more important. If the worlds scientific bodies reconsider their support - then we most certainly will report it (even if one scientific academy does), since that would be a pertinent fact - as opposed to this. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- The consequences of that review failure extend beyond 'one paragraph of several thousand'. The assumption is that the IPCC reports are highly accurate. This event calls into question that accuracy. Your claim of WP:UNDUE is like claiming we can ignore a murderer's single act of murder, simply because he has murdered only on one day of the thousands he has been alive. That one act of murder (or in the IPCC's case - failure to adhere to policy) characterises the murderer. We rightly highlight that one failure of character of the murderer in the courts, the press and wikipedia - similarly we need to highlight that failure of character of the IPCC in Wikipedia.Cadae (talk) 23:34, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- A mountain out of a molehill. Sorry but the murder analogy is rather bad. It is a single mistake taken out of a context of tens of thousands points of data/facts. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:48, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Your 'mountain out of a molehill' doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The 'molehill' is far from a 'molehill'- it is nothing less than a question of the character of the IPCC as an unblemished reliable source, upon whose reports the world's economies will be spending trillions of dollars. There were several failures of policy and procedure involved. If this were a pharmaceutical report, the authors would be arrested and tried for fraud. Cadae (talk) 00:03, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- Well, you've certainly made your personal POV clear, and also why you want to include something that is rather clearly WP:UNDUE. Try with reliable sources instead of original research. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 10:08, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- In response to my reasons for showing why WP:UNDUE doesn't apply, you ignore my reasoning and blandly repeat your WP:UNDUE claim without responding to my points. Your POV is also clear, but is backed only by the claim that it is only "one paragraph among thousands". I have repeatedly addressed this, but you continue to fail to engage with the points raised. It gives the distinct impression that the deletion of the section about the IPCC error is motivated by bias. Cadae (talk) 02:00, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
- So can Retreat of glaciers since 1850 be changed to reflect this new information? Is the WWF Report a RS since it was not peer reviewed? If it is not an RS, much of the Asia section under Retreat of glaciers since 1850 needs to be rewritten. Schonchin (talk) 20:27, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
- In response to my reasons for showing why WP:UNDUE doesn't apply, you ignore my reasoning and blandly repeat your WP:UNDUE claim without responding to my points. Your POV is also clear, but is backed only by the claim that it is only "one paragraph among thousands". I have repeatedly addressed this, but you continue to fail to engage with the points raised. It gives the distinct impression that the deletion of the section about the IPCC error is motivated by bias. Cadae (talk) 02:00, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
- Well, you've certainly made your personal POV clear, and also why you want to include something that is rather clearly WP:UNDUE. Try with reliable sources instead of original research. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 10:08, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- Your 'mountain out of a molehill' doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The 'molehill' is far from a 'molehill'- it is nothing less than a question of the character of the IPCC as an unblemished reliable source, upon whose reports the world's economies will be spending trillions of dollars. There were several failures of policy and procedure involved. If this were a pharmaceutical report, the authors would be arrested and tried for fraud. Cadae (talk) 00:03, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- A mountain out of a molehill. Sorry but the murder analogy is rather bad. It is a single mistake taken out of a context of tens of thousands points of data/facts. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:48, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- The consequences of that review failure extend beyond 'one paragraph of several thousand'. The assumption is that the IPCC reports are highly accurate. This event calls into question that accuracy. Your claim of WP:UNDUE is like claiming we can ignore a murderer's single act of murder, simply because he has murdered only on one day of the thousands he has been alive. That one act of murder (or in the IPCC's case - failure to adhere to policy) characterises the murderer. We rightly highlight that one failure of character of the murderer in the courts, the press and wikipedia - similarly we need to highlight that failure of character of the IPCC in Wikipedia.Cadae (talk) 23:34, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, review failed for one paragraph of a several thousand pages document, that happens, so what? And i do get that you apparently have very strong feelings on the subject - but that doesn't make it more important. If the worlds scientific bodies reconsider their support - then we most certainly will report it (even if one scientific academy does), since that would be a pertinent fact - as opposed to this. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- The IPCC have failed to adhere to their own policy, leading to an error of fact. This has significance beyond a simple factual error - it indicates poor management and a lack of process control - thus affecting the veracity of their reports. The very existence of this process break-down and factual error may well cause the "worlds scientific bodies" to reconsider their support of the IPCC reports. Your appeal to the authority of the "worlds scientific bodies" backing the reports is a self-serving argument - you've assumed your own conclusion that they won't give this error any weight Cadae (talk) 14:44, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry - but an error in one paragraph is an extremely large report (several thousand pages) does not merit weight to this, nor does it merit that we "view [them with] some suspicion", especially not since we have most of the worlds scientific bodies backing up the reports (with none saying otherwise) What seems more the case here is that some are willing to "make a feather into 5 hens" --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:08, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- The pertinent fact at issue is the reliability of the IPCC and its reports. The incorrect dates indicate that the IPCC reports cannot be given the weight attributed to them. They must be viewed with some suspicion as the IPCC have not adhered to their own stated policy. This is pertinent to the characterisation of the IPCC, and WP:UNDUE doesn't apply. Defending the IPCC in the face of this error is not WP:NPOV. Cadae (talk) 13:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
[indent] I don`t see how the wwf could ever be counted as a reliable source for anything. So yes the Retreat of glaciers since 1850 should most certainly be reviewed. mark nutley (talk) 08:57, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Re Himalaya Glaciers
Discussion on this can be found here: Talk:IPCC Fourth Assessment Report#The veracity of this report has been called into question.... The current insertion seems to be a spillover. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:02, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Since the reliability of the entire IPCC report is in question, evidence that the report was written in a biased or sloppy way is extremely relevant to this page. Vegasprof (talk) 01:33, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry but that the "reliability of the entire IPCC report is in question" is your personal opinion (which you are free to have as long as you do not project it into Wikipedia). But here we are talking about an error in one paragraph in chapter 10 (of 20) section 6 subsection 2 in the WGII report which is 1 of 3 main reports in the AR4 (which is the 4th report) from the IPCC - and that is grossly WP:UNDUE. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:48, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Considering the fact that the IPCC's scaremongering about Himalayan glaciers has permeated the collective unconscious of society then I find this to be very relevant. When I first added it you people didn't like the sources, so I changed them, and now you are inventing a new reason to limit the spread of information - the only way to destroy the urban legend that they invented. TheGoodLocust (talk) 02:02, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Which again seems to be your personal opinion ("scaremongering", "permeated","urban legend"...). And again you are free to have that opinion - as long as you do not project it into Wikipedia articles. And i'm not "inventing" anything - please read and understand WP:UNDUE (which is a part of our WP:NPOV policy). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 02:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Considering the fact that the IPCC's scaremongering about Himalayan glaciers has permeated the collective unconscious of society then I find this to be very relevant. When I first added it you people didn't like the sources, so I changed them, and now you are inventing a new reason to limit the spread of information - the only way to destroy the urban legend that they invented. TheGoodLocust (talk) 02:02, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- You don't need to pretend with me Kim. I know your record and that of your friends. Sorry, but my sources show that it is a plain fact that the IPCC was drastically wrong about the melting glaciers - the fact that such a myth has spread so far and wide is evidence of how significant their propaganda has been. If I actually saw you apply policy in a way that didn't massage the AGW perspective then I might be more inclined to respect your opinion. I couldn't live with myself if I behaved in the same way. TheGoodLocust (talk) 02:21, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Oh and [WP:UNDUE]] doesn't apply. We aren't talking about "viewpoints" here - we are talking about verifiable fact. And the fact of the matter is that the IPCC broke their own publishing rules by not using peer-reviewed literature which resulted in them making a glaring error about melting glaciers. Again, those are facts, not viewpoints - come up with a new excuse. Third times a charm right? TheGoodLocust (talk) 02:37, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- WP:UNDUE relates to all content - not just viewpoints. Simplified: Proportion of content must be in relative proportion to prominence in literature. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 02:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Right, so the question becomes whether this mistake (if it is indeed a mistake) is sourced as being of significant importance to the panel, its mission, its public perception, etc. Becoming a hot item among climate change skeptics and anti-environmental operatives is not in itself worthy of note, but if their agitation reaches the point where it is part of the story of the organization, perhaps. Also, if there is a child article relating to the report or to some scandal (or to the glacier in question, perhaps), the information is probably better centralized there. Also, to reiterate Scjessey's point below, please don't use article talk pages to criticize other editors, or any page to make simple personal attacks like the above. - Wikidemon (talk) 02:58, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- WP:UNDUE relates to all content - not just viewpoints. Simplified: Proportion of content must be in relative proportion to prominence in literature. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 02:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Oh and [WP:UNDUE]] doesn't apply. We aren't talking about "viewpoints" here - we are talking about verifiable fact. And the fact of the matter is that the IPCC broke their own publishing rules by not using peer-reviewed literature which resulted in them making a glaring error about melting glaciers. Again, those are facts, not viewpoints - come up with a new excuse. Third times a charm right? TheGoodLocust (talk) 02:37, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- No, I suggest you actually read the policies you love to cite as excuses to keep out information. It plainly states that WP:UNDUE is about viewpoints. I'm inserting facts and attempting to do so without bias. Facts are not "viewpoints." Here is an idea for you Kim, and I know it is radical, but consider this, encycopedias are like people - they are improved by knowledge - not ignorance. TheGoodLocust (talk) 03:02, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- More sources that confirm my edits and show how their importantance - [2][3][4] [5][6][7] - plus the sources I've already quoted. Is it your contention that these facts are unimportant? Is this not enough? Tell me this - what, in your mind, and be specific, would be enough, or the right kind, of evidence for you to concede that this information is important and should be in this article? TheGoodLocust (talk) 03:12, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- The date error (2035 vs 2350) from a trusted source - the IPCC - has caused a fairly significant myth to be created. For instance, a Google search on the keywords "Himalayan glaciers melt 2035" gives 48,200 hits, whereas the number of hits for the correct date - "Himalayan glaciers melt 2350" gives 6,460 hits. Reliance on the veracity of the IPCC has been responsible for propagating seriously incorrect information. Here's an example of what can happen when one disputes the IPCC: http://www.france24.com/en/node/4921700. This is an important aspect of the IPCC and merits coverage on the wikipedia entry about the IPCC. Cadae (talk) 06:50, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- I find it quite odd that the entire section is just deleted, the entire reasoning given for this change in the edit summary being "per Kim"; as if said user somehow is the final authority on this subject, and that if he says so then that's the end of that and no further discussion is needed. The second edit summary has even less details, merely stating "no". I don't see how undue weight is an argument here, there's no denying that the melting of glaciers is a key example used to demonstrate the reality / severity of climate change, and grossly inaccurate reporting on it by an authoritative agency I think is certainly worth mentioning, especially considering (as demonstrated above) the fact this error hasn't gone unnoticed in the media and has even resulted in criticism from India's environment minister (see BBC ref. in deleted content). It's not like it's just a minor typo without real consequence. But I guess mentioning it would make the statement written just a little lower - "We recognise IPCC as the world's most reliable source of information on climate change and its causes" - seem rather silly. Infact that entire section seems rather silly, I don't see UNICEF getting a praise section for their work. I could obviously restore the section, but there's no doubt in my mind it'd be deleted again. BabyNuke (talk) 11:17, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
As has alrady been pointed out, this stuff refers to one section of one report. Hence "The IPCC's 4th report has been criticized by..." is clearly too broad-brush. At the very least you need to re-phrase it to make it clear (assuming you know, of course) which report, and which bit. Even then the question of due weight still applies. I don't see how undue weight is an argument here - this may be a flaw in your understanding, rather than in the reasoning. Is melting of Himalayan glaciers presented as key evidence by the IPCC? I rather doubt it William M. Connolley (talk) 10:58, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
A hierarchical approach probably makes sense
The recent edit war was over whether to report on an error found in the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) in this article. A similar discussion is taking place on the AR4 talk page to see if the error should be reported in that article.
It seems to me that, if we can't agree to include a mention of the error in the AR4 article, we're unlikely to reach agreement on whether to mention it in this more general article. I would suggest therefore that it makes sense for us to all concentrate, at Talk:IPCC Fourth Assessment Report, on whether to discuss the matter as part of that article. If we decide not to go ahead with that, it seems to me, then it seems very unlikely that we would want to include it here. On the other hand, if we decide to include it in the AR4 article, the case to include it here will be a little stronger. So I advise a hierarchical approach. Discuss it at the AR4 article and take it from there. --TS 17:05, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- The AR4 article focuses on the contents of AR4 and does not speak to the nature and characteristics of the IPCC. The error introduced in the AR4 report has significance beyond IPCC Fourth Assessment Report (AR4). As an indicator of a failure of IPCC policy and procedure it has significance independent of the error itself, as it speaks to the reliablity of the IPCC. It is thus less important as an item in the AR4 article than as an item about the IPCC itself. Creating a dependency between its presence in IPCC Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) to its presence here is a mistake. It can and should be considered differently in each context. Cadae (talk) 00:08, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- I understand your point of view (though I don't agree with it). But I don't think you can make an argument that will convince people who are already dubious about the notion of discussing the matter at all even in the AR4 article. --TS 11:29, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- Should this article not mention that the IPCC is not allowed to assess the "for and against" of global warming since it is signed up to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change which states that global warming is real and dangerous
- Therefore they will only ever find global warming or they will al be out of work? mark nutley (talk) 20:18, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- Just wondering :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marknutley (talk • contribs) 20:12, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- No, it shouldn't because it is incorrect. You seem not to have read the report(s)? Take a peek, they are quite interesting and contain quite a lot that various people assert that they do not. (for instance about solar or natural variations, discussions of Svensmarks cosmic ray hypothesis, discussions of benefits of warming etc etc etc) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 22:39, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- In answer to TS - I'm not sure which POV you understand - the POV that the AR4 article and IPCC article shouldn't be dependent on each other, or the POV that the error is more significant in the IPCC article than the AR4 article ? If you comprehend my point, you will see that you have the dependency around the wrong way - the date error is less significant in the AR4 article than in the IPCC article. Even if it is not in AR4, it has more significance to the IPCC article, and exclusion of it in AR4 is no justification for excluding it from IPCC. Cadae (talk) 05:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
- The trouble here is that I cannot begin to address your argument because I cannot make any sense of it. The error is in the AR4, so under what circumstances could it possibly be appropriate to mention it in this article but not in the article on AR4? --TS 15:45, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'll restate the argument and try to make it clearer. AR4 is all about the AR4 report - it is not about the IPCC. Information about the IPCC itself is in the IPCC article i.e. information about the IPCC's characteristics, history, successes and failures. The date error (2035 vs 2350) is a significant failure of the IPCC to adhere to its policy and processes - this is of greatest import to the article about the IPCC itself, not the article about AR4. The significance of the failure is dependent on its context - it's even more significant in the IPCC article than in the AR4 article. Cadae (talk) 10:59, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
- The trouble here is that I cannot begin to address your argument because I cannot make any sense of it. The error is in the AR4, so under what circumstances could it possibly be appropriate to mention it in this article but not in the article on AR4? --TS 15:45, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
- In answer to TS - I'm not sure which POV you understand - the POV that the AR4 article and IPCC article shouldn't be dependent on each other, or the POV that the error is more significant in the IPCC article than the AR4 article ? If you comprehend my point, you will see that you have the dependency around the wrong way - the date error is less significant in the AR4 article than in the IPCC article. Even if it is not in AR4, it has more significance to the IPCC article, and exclusion of it in AR4 is no justification for excluding it from IPCC. Cadae (talk) 05:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Edit summaries on consensus
Please could everyone stop claiming "consensus at talk" in edit summaries when it is clear that no consensus exists. Adding up opinions above (and counting me as "don't care"; I haven't read and don't think I edited this page unless on a vandal revert) I make it 6-6 on opinions expressed. Anyone who reverts without adding value (e.g. by proposing a compromise text) is in danger of an Edit Warring sanction. This page is also in danger of having to be protected. So no reverts, just improvements please. --BozMo talk 08:40, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
- I answered above - plus you counted wrong. There is a consensus for inclusion. TheGoodLocust (talk) 02:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
- How do you quantify this consensus? I did a rough head count and it seemed to me that there was a slight majority for inclusion, but substantial objections, and reasons for holding off on declaring consensus (consensus on whether the item merits discussion at the AR4 article has not materialized). We don't normally treat this kind of situation as consensus--consensus usually means something like "very few objectors and no significant policy objections". --TS 20:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Membership
- This has nothing to do with the controversial issue. But the introduction is missing information about what kind of people (scientists?) are part of the committee and how they are selected. Labongo (talk) 08:27, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- Having read the entire article I still don't understand how the IPCC members are selected/elected. The "Operations" section should be clarified with regards to provide information about who actually where selected rather than: "Participation of delegates with appropriate expertise is encouraged". I also suggest moving the "Operations" section to above the reports. Labongo (talk) 08:37, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- I think all that is mandated is The IPCC Panel is composed of representatives appointed by governments and organizations. Participation of delegates with appropriate expertise is encouraged. (I'm guessing that is from the charter). What actually *happens* is that governments get to appoint who they will to the *panel*. The panel (I think) will then appoint various working groups (which is why there are the WGI, II and III reports; of which WGI is by far the best). The way this goes is that the scientists get to write the science chapters (and as far as I know, in practice this actually happens) and then comes the process of approving the report (and traditionally the chapters of the report are left alone, in the full knowledge that only the very interested will read them; only the exec summaries and stuff get fought over). This is where it gets political. Traditionally the EU have been pro-science; the US (presumably no more) and Saudi (how odd) have been foot-draggers. The problem is that I rather doubt any of that is written down anywhere reliable, or even at all William M. Connolley (talk) 20:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Article probation
Please note that, by a decision of the Wikipedia community, this article and others relating to climate change (broadly construed) has been placed under article probation. Editors making disruptive edits may be blocked temporarily from editing the encyclopedia, or subject to other administrative remedies, according to standards that may be higher than elsewhere on Wikipedia. Please see Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation for full information and to review the decision. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:58, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Probabtion applied, prot removed, warnings given
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I believe that it should stay in on this article for the reasons I stated above. --GoRight (talk) 21:53, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Protection levelAssuming that there is an intent to apply these new probationary sanctions even handedly, I hereby object to any change in the current protection level of this article unless and until a warning comparable to this has been issued here. --GoRight (talk) 22:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
As an admin who has no involvement in this article, I can confirm that edit warring will result in a block. If a consensus forms to unprotect the page I will consider doing so and keep an eye on it. Chillum (Need help? Ask me) 22:51, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
To forestall further WP:edit warring, any editor who adds or removes contested material from this article without first attaining consensus here may be blocked from editing. To be clear: any edit which another editor has reverted in whole or in part is contested. --TS 23:07, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
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Article must Report that IPCC is Widely Criticized
Seems to have petered out
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In order to be correctly encyclopedic, this article must report the fact that the IPCC has been widely criticized, including by many scientists. (I have personally read many such articles.) A number of those criticisms are mentioned in the article already, and should stay there, along with appropriate refutations of those criticisms, if any. No one reading this article should get the impression that the IPCC is not controversial, because it is. Vegasprof (talk) 23:37, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Possible Sources for Criticism SectionLet's start gathering some possible sources. Feel free to add yours here too. Please just include the sources and a brief excerpt in this section. Discussion of the proposed use of these sources can be addressed elsewhere. --GoRight (talk) 07:48, 3 January 2010 (UTC) (1) Interview with Roger Pielke, Sr.
(2) Censorship Threatens Truth on Climate NOTE: We should try to find a more direct reference for this quote from Michaels.
(3) ROYAL SOCIETY REBUTTAL - Probably not usable directly but may provide additional pointers to other sources. (4) [10]"With the apparent solar :cooling cycle upon us we have a ready explanation for global warming and cooling. If the present :cooling trend continues, the IPCC reports will have been the biggest farce in the history of :science." - Dr. Don Easterbrook, Professor Emeritus - Geology, Western Washington University Nothughthomas (talk) 09:57, 3 January 2010 (UTC) Criticism section: broad (methodology/process/legitimacy) or narrow?
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1RR
Per the terms of Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation, I'm placing this under a 1 revert rule restriction indefinitely at this time (although this can obviously be changed in due course if needs be). All editors should refrain from reverting more than once in any 24 hour period. Clearly, there are other forms of disruption that could occur and these would also be met with a warning/block under the terms of the probation. I'll unprotect the article for now, but I'll also leave a note for the protecting administrator and he can have final say. Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 12:27, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
IPCC only using P-R stuff?
Discussion
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One of the assertions made above is that the IPCC should not have useed the WWF report, because that report wasn't peer reviewed. Who says this is an IPCC rule, and where is the appropriate rulebook? This article says The IPCC reports are a compendium of peer reviewed and published science and links to [11] which is broken (argh, I hate this stupid orgs that can't even maintain a website). However, it now seems to be at []. This includes Contributions should be supported as far as possible with references from the peer-reviewed and internationally available literature, and with copies of any unpublished material cited. Clear indications of how to access the latter should be included in the contributions. I would read that as clear evidence that while P-R lit is preferred, non-P-R lit, provided it is internationally available, is permitted. In this particular instance (Himalayan glaciers) the WWF report *is* widely available, so using it (I argue) falls within the IPCC rules. That makes the text "IPCC lead author Murari Lal claims there was no mistake about the glacial melt, but admits they didn't use peer-reviewed papers - breaking an IPCC mandate" that misc people have been reverting back in wrong William M. Connolley (talk) 20:46, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
The BBC source used in the section says: "Incidentally, none of these documents have been reviewed by peer professionals, which is what the IPCC is mandated to be doing. We have a reliable source that says they are mandated. You appear to be doing OR in order to say it isn't mandated, and it seems to me that anyone can show a section where it doesn't say it is mandated - what matters is the section that requires the mandate or a source that talks about that mandate - and we have the latter. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:30, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
<outdent>Hey look, I can do original research and find statements from their website that say they use peer-reviewed literature! "The IPCC assessment process is designed to ensure consideration of all relevant scientific information from established journals with robust peer review processes, or from other sources which have undergone robust and independent peer review." Again, here at wikipedia, and I'm surprised you don't know this yet, we try not to use primary sources or original research - otherwise you have editors determine what is "right" and what is "wrong" - wikipedia procedures state that information must be verifiable with reliable sources - not "right." TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:14, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm. I find WMC's observation and argument here quite interesting. So he is arguing that the IPCC reports are NOT based only on peer-reviewed literature? Well, given that the standard here on Wikipedia for discussions of scientific fact IS the use of only peer-reviewed literature does this not mean that the articles on the IPCC reports, which purport to represent scientific facts, should be deleted per WP:UNDUE? --GoRight (talk) 22:47, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
@Bozmo, it was said no contested text would be removed nor added if protection was removed, look in page protection section above @Kim, Are you all seriously saying that we should propagate an error that we know is an error I ask you to look at WMC`s edit and tell me it`s not been spun? name changed and then this IPCC lead author Murari Lal claims there was no mistake about the glacial melt apart from it being out by 300 years of course. --mark nutley (talk) 23:07, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
<outdent> Wait wait wait....so you are arguing that while I used the same word I somehow "changed its meaning" to make it "completely unsupported" by the source? I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous - the only distinction is in your interpretation, which is completely subjective. I used the same word - I simply shortened (paraphrased) it.TheGoodLocust (talk) 00:07, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I have re-edited the article back to the way it was prior to WMC`s revisions. I was trying to talk here, my arguments above go unanswered and then this breach of trust takes place. So is it a case of they can`t win an argument so ignore it and then edit the article into a nice positive light, sorry but thats just plain wrong. mark nutley (talk) 00:30, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
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Objection
Discussion of change to the uses-peer-reviewed-lit bit
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This] is unsupported by discussion. The previous text "compendium of peer reviewed and published science" doesn't imply that everything is peer-reviewed, and the new text seems quite frankly to be pointy, and is certainly not as GR stated "Per talk page discussion on P-R sources". --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:39, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
GoRight is indefinitely blocked--effectively until he agrees to work with other editors. Meanwhile does anybody know what argument he was claiming to have made, and more to the point does anybody honestly think the edit makes the article more accurate or better in any way? --TS 08:57, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
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BOLD suspended?
Rejected: no support
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I notice above that someone has said I was merely being WP:BOLD and.... I suggest that BOLD is not a good policy in these delicate times. I propose an extension to the existing community probation explicitly discouraging BOLD edits from articles under the probation. Since the issue arose here I'm talking here first; if this gains any support it can go to the probation page William M. Connolley (talk) 10:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
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Problems with a recent edit by Marknutley
Disputed text currently out
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Mark has added the following text in this edit:
The problem isn't so much with the text as the sohurcing. The first source is a PDF containing a transcript of a speech [14]. That looks a tad too close to original research to me. We're not journalists. The source for the second statement puzzles me greatly. It is an external link to the Wikipedia article Retreat of glaciers since 1850. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for in that article. Beyond that there may be due weight problems, for all I know, but the most glaring problem at the moment is the inappropriate sourcing. --TS 14:12, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
This is a controversial edit made with no attempt at discussion. I object to the edit, and the failure to discuss William M. Connolley (talk) 15:57, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I've taken MN's added text out. There is clearly no consensus for it - indeed, no-one has spoken in its favour. You'll immeadiately note the contrast to the text change I made, which generated considerable support. Also, the text itself makes no sense. However the 2035 date was still being used by... However? However what? The BBC report is dated 5th Dec, so something from Nov does not count as a however William M. Connolley (talk) 17:59, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
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