Talk:International Taekwon-Do Federation

Untitled

The spelling on Grand Master Charles Sereff's name is wrong. It is not spelled "Serref"

Hangul/Hanja

Sorry - I reverted the last change (where descriptions were added while Hangul/Hanja (i.e. Korean language) were deleted), because:

1. Why delete the Hangul/Hanja? It will be very difficult to find these again on your own. 2. The meanings are already there, in the form of linked articles (with some exceptions).

If you want to write the meanings there anyway, please do not delete the Hangul/Hanja that is there already. However, in most cases, by clicking on one of the form names, you will find a related article that is much longer and more detailed than the ITF's one-line descriptions (these articles researched by other Wikipedians).

No hard feelings.  :)

Edededed 01:14, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Spelling

There are 3 possible arguments for the spelling of "Taekwondo": one is that it should follow the McCune-Reischauer Romanization (the system used by virtually all academics and other publishers on Korean topics since its invention in the 30s (except those in Korea under pressure from the vacillating political influences of the Korean Ministry of Education), the Revised Romanization (the current Ministry of Education favorite), or the most common spelling among the majority of English speakers (for words so widely used that they have entered the English language). There are minor variations on the two Romanization systems, so that spellings such as "Tekwondo" "Taekgwondo" could be argued for, but the consensus of the two systems is "Taekwondo," and this is how the vast majority of English speakers spell it, including virtually everyone in the U.S. (I personally have never seen it spelled otherwise since first encountering it in the seventies, until seeing ITF's misspelling here on Wikipedia a few weeks ago.) ITF can retain the mildly misspelled pre-1984-MOE-style "Taekwon-Do" as part of the name of its organization, but its members should not imperialistically change the standard spelling that this encyclopedia has adopted, which is "Taekwondo." With regard to the spelling "gup" vs. "kup," I think arguments for "gup" are much stronger, as that's the way it is actually pronounced (voiced, not unaspirated unvoiced initial velar) and its best rendering probably being hyphenated, but both spellings are defensible, so I didn't change it back to my preference when 86.129.67.234 changed all instances today from "gup" to "kup." As for the other misspellings by 86.129.67.234, I can only say that spelling is not determined by the first linguistically naive Korean who jots down an poorly conceived Americanized spelling (with no regard for international conventions or the established standards used by most writers and publishers on Korean topics throughout the world) on the back of an envelope. DoctorW 22:31, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

It's hard to believe that Matt TKD read what I had already written above when he chose to "correct" the spelling corrections of an expert, changing them to idiosyncratic and contradictory spellings, most of which were [1] not a part of any of the 32 published (as of about 1980) proposals for the Romanization of Korean (or any since, I'm very confident), [2] surprisingly ignorant of international spellings and conventions, and [3] spellings that in some cases have been shown in empirical studies to increase mispronunciation (compared with McCune-Reischauer). -DoctorW 04:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The Korean Governments Deptartment of Toruism and Culture adopted the spelling of Taekwondo as one word, at the suggestion of the Hangul Society, a group of 7 scholars of the Korean language, after they had a meeting on February 26, 1987, where they also suggested the name change of many of the terms used for Taekwondo.--Bigzilla 01:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The ITF organisation uses "Taekwon-Do" (with or without hyphen, normally with it in my experience) and "Kup". As Master O'Neill said once "We don't speak Korean, we speak Taekwon-Do". Syneil 17:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I moved the following comment, which appears to have been inserted in one of the previous comments above, inappropriately (because this made it look like the following comment was made by DoctorW). Janggeom (talk) 00:06, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

However, it must also be stressed that within the ITF the hyphon donates the difference between sport and traditional TaeKwon-Do, the "Do" bieng the path along which the practitioner developes his mental and philosophical awareness. Specifically this spelling separates ITF from the WTF method of TaeKeon-Do practice-in other words, through the practice of Tae and Kwon, we may arrive at an understanding of the Do.

Expanding on this last comment: According to General Choi hong Hi who himself came up with the name, there was a very clear reason why it should be spelled Taekwon-Do. As he stated to me himself, my own master (the late J.A Blake 8th dan of Montreal Canada) and the late master Tran Trieu Quan 8th dan of Quebec, canada) during numerous seminars he gave around the world in the last decade of his life, Tae and kwon (foot and hand) are both of the body and Do (the way) is of the mind and spirit. Writing it in three words would mean there is no connection, which is of course untrue and writing it as one single word would imply unity of mind and body was achieved, which would be presumptuous. By writing it Taekwon-Do, it expressed that the art strived to unify body and mind, act and soul and that it was a never-ending process to which the art was the tool. However,as this wording was legally owned by him, others wanting to use the name had no recourse but to use other forms and the subsequent success of other organisations undoubtebly supported the now official dictionary spelling of Taekwondo in both English and French, to name a few.184.163.209.20 (talk) 02:37, 8 January 2017 (UTC)Andre Ouellette 6th dan HTI, 4th dan ITF 1st dan WTF January 2017

The Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism (Korean Government), Kukkiwon, the Hangul Society, World Taekwondo Federation (IOC member), and the International Olympic Committee all use the English version as "Taekwondo". Just as Baseball is no longer "base ball", Taekwondo is not longer Tae Kwon Do, Taekwon Do etc. Masteralcole (talk) 23:37, 29 October 2011 (UTC) Al Cole

www.itf-information.com

Of the ITF organizations mentioned, which operates http://www.itf-information.com ??

I believe it is Master Choi's (ITF-C) Syneil 17:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Ridiculous, small minded 2406:5A00:9A14:5000:695F:5A66:EFD3:182B (talk) 19:08, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Jamasuruna

James Cunningham Vanity edit removed from article - User:Jamasuruna see WP:Vanity, WP:Vandalism. ---- Bacmac 22:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Unencyclopedicness

What exactly are the issues with the appropriateness of the "Recent history" section? --Nucleusboy (talk) 22:25, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

None really that I can read into it. Bwalker5435 (talk) 19:45, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Three ITFs

Why is only Master Trân Triêu Quân's ITF listed? After the death of Gen. Choi the ITF split into three groups each claiming to be the real ITF. So far nothing certain has come forward with regards to which one is the actual ITF and I think that all three should be linked to and a section on the more recent history (how and why the groups split) should be added. --DexxW (talk) 19:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Courts in Austria and Canada ruled in favour of Master Trân Triêu Quân's ITF. Who the legal ITF is has been decided for some time. Bwalker5435 (talk) 21:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

There is only one Original ITF. Legal Court Ruling, Austria, ruled out other groups proclaiming they are legal ITF. Respect the last words of General Choi Hong Hi. Prof. Dr. Chang Ung was named as successor and now after time 3rd ITF President is Prof. Grand Master RI Yong Son. 2406:5A00:9A14:5000:695F:5A66:EFD3:182B (talk) 19:12, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I think Master Choi's ITF deserves to be mentioned. The contested nature should also be mentioned. Someone reading this article should also know that there are 3 organisations with the same name. Rulings in Austria and Canada have no jurisdiction outside, those rulings were probably made on narrow financial or legal grounds.AleXd (talk) 11:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, whoever is the "legal" or "offical" ITF, whatever that actually means, it is a historical fact that there were three seperate claims at legitimacy. AleXd (talk) 12:14, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

There used to be a description of all three different claims, with their reasons for claiming legitimacy. It is still pertinent as all three "branches" (or whatever) of ITF are still extant and operational. 139.133.7.37 (talk) 14:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The article should not just mention and claim one ITF as legitimate. Without getting too involved in the politics there should be references to all 3 ITFs or they should not be mentioned at all. Grimlock2009 (talk) 21:04, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Austrian courts ruled on this two years ago. Akono12 (talk) 00:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Rulings in Austria and Canada have no jurisdiction outside those countries, if there was a ruling in the United Kingdom, USA, Russia or even North Korea the result would likely be different! The IOC recognises Chang Ung's ITF but this isn't to say this is the 'real' ITF. To say any one ITF is the legitimate ITF is a biased view and not factual as all 3 groups claim this to this day and all 3 are fully active. It is only fair and accurate for the article to provide links to all 3 groups. Grimlock2009 (talk) 23:40, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Completely incorrect, the IOC does not recognise Chang Ung's ITF. An Austria, Canada and USA ruling sets a precedence.

Yes, there was a ruling in the USA also. The corporate owner of the USTF owns all ITF rights, are a member of the legal group. Austria, Canada, USA, same. The noose will tighten more over time. Akono12 (talk) 00:51, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

The IOC recognises ITF-NK and has entertained talks with the WTF at IOC headquators in Lausanne. This started when Mr Chang Ung had ITF-NK recognised by GAISF. ITF rights are held by NGB's, in the UK this is the UKTA headed by 1st GM Rhee who was the first promoted Grand Master by General Choi and not a member of GM Tran's ITF. The ITF in an International Organisation so those court ruling can't take precedence. As the General said "Does the United Nations belong to the Africans because the Secretary General a black man?".

But that aside the article should not be politically biased. There may be a merger one day, but unfortunatly it may be a very long time. Grimlock2009 (talk) 19:56, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I would have to agree with Grimlock in a general sort of way -- perhaps the official ITF has been established legally in some countries, but that doesn't mean that this article should ignore the other claimant organizations. It's not as if the other two are mere upstarts. The situation could be described neutrally and doesn't need to include a lot of detail. Simply reverting the URL back and forth doesn't accomplish anything. Omnedon (talk) 04:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

There's more than the three Grimlock said. In my opinion they are mere upstarts. To avoid the reverting let me try linking them all. If the other claimant organizations are mentioned in the article outside linking, I think it would become a mess. Bigbird6 (talk) 06:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Recently there have actually been a lot more ITF groups popping up including International Traditional Taekwon-Do Federation (ITTAF), International Taekwon-Do Federation Union (ITFU), and Traditional International Taekwondo Federation (TITF). No one organization is any more valid then the next. All have high ranking masters from the formal ITF. The American example to this would be the ATU which is one of the largest and most respected organizations in the USA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.44.58 (talk) 05:59, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Romanization and italicization

This discussion happened on the taekwondo page some time ago. Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Korea-related articles), we use revised romanization for Korean terms like geup (not gup). Per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(text_formatting)#Foreign_terms, we put foreign terms in italics unless they have become part of everyday use in English -- and geup and dan are not part of everyday English, unlike "taekwondo". Omnedon (talk) 14:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

121.183.233.19

Whoever is at this I.P. keeps deleting links in the article. I left a message about this on their talk page. It looks like user Omnedon (talk) already did something similar. Bigbird6 (talk) 06:10, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, this user seems back to his mischief after a few months off. Basileias (talk) 00:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Yul-Gok first move

In the Patterns section it says:

The majority of the patterns (excepting Yul-Gok, Ul-Ji and Tong-Il) start with a defensive move...

Technically correct, but it may lead some to think the first move in Yul-Gok is offensive, which it is not. Worth a mention, or am I being too pernickety? See http://www.itf-information.com/patterns06.htm as a reference. Syneil (talk) 16:04, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps consider Kwang-Gae to be added to this list too? I'm happy to perform the edit if it's acceptable. 46.226.218.20 (talk) 16:30, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Belts

Can someone please put belts of the proper colours in that table? 62.25.109.195 (talk) 14:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Article title - February 2010

I have moved this article from "International Taekwondo Federation" to "International Taekwon-Do Federation," while retaining the use of "taekwondo" throughout the article's main text (unless referring to a specific organisation), following WP article naming guidelines and WikiProject Martial Arts spelling guidelines. First, it is a practical reality that there are two major styles of this martial art practised today (ITF and WTF), and the different spellings make this much clearer to the reader, who might otherwise be misled into thinking that there is only one form of the martial art (WP, clear benefit). If there were many major styles of the art (such as is the case with Karate), this distinction would not be so valuable, but in this case the difference in spelling is a consistent and clear distinction. Second, the article title should follow the organisation's way of spelling its own name (WPMA, spelling). Janggeom (talk) 00:20, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Necessity of article?

It seems that only the opening section has information on the ITF, and the rest on Taekwondo in general. I was curious on the group after reading about a championship taking place in North Korea next month, and found no information on it here, or information on any competition or meeting. The only original information seems to be on squabbles over group ownership and the history of that.

What is the particular point for the article?Vendo Thefastlane (talk) 01:24, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

This article has become more about Taekwon-Do than the International Taekwon-Do Federation since I've been away. Bigbird6 (talk) 00:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

ORIGINAL ITF foundation date.

Dear Wikipedia contributors,

please, receive a respectful greeting. I have a concern about the original ITF foundation date. According to http://www.itftkd.org/?Content=HistoryOfITF, http://www.weberos.es/pagina.php?idpag=1132&web=47&lng=3 and http://www.weberos.es/pagina.php?idpag=1122&web=47&lng=3, the term "Tae Kwon Do" was coined/adopted by Gen. Choi Hong Hi on Apr. 11, 1955 (therefore "Tae Kwon Do" was officially born/created on the same date); and, the ITF was founded on Mar. 22, 1966.

Could someone with enough credentials verify this in order to make the necessary change in the article information box on the right top part. Thank you very much in advance. I truly appreciate your work.

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 16:17, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

History

The historical section is incomplete. Upon founding the ITF, General Choi first established the inernational headquarters in Toronto, Canada, to make good use of their efficient communication and postal services. It's not until 1983 that the ITF HQ was moved to Vienna, Austria, to better supervize the developpement of the Federation from a more worldwide centralized location to be closer to southern and eastern countries. Gen Choi himself had by then officially become a Canadian citizen.

This is confirmed in writing through the publication of his second book, Taekwon-Do the Korean Art of Self-Defence, in 1972 and then his final work, the Taekwon-Do Encyclopedia in 1983. This should be incorporated into the article for correct historical accuracy.184.163.209.20 (talk) 02:47, 8 January 2017 (UTC) Andre Ouellette 6th dan HTI, 4th dan ITF 1st dan WTF

Multiple site claiming to be the real ITF site, disputed leaders ship, and multiple organisations

As of March 2021 there are at least two site claiming to be the "real" ITF. On one hand we

• https://itftkd.sport/

It has a copyright by the International Taekwondo Feredation and it appears that it has some reputable sponsors (notably Adidas). Also the names on national rederation memebers checks out. Its presient is Paul Weiler.

• https://online.taekwondo-itf.com/

The only copyright is by the page itself taekwondo-itf.com. Headed by RI Yong Son.

It appears that this was due to a schism in the ITF around 2002 and included at least 2 other minor association. What, if any, is the difference between them outside the political spectrum is dubious at best. I am more inclined towards the itftkd.sport, since they literally claim to be the International Taekwon-do Feredation in the copyright of their page. But seeings as this could be contentious and it is impossible to truly verify who actually runs which website, (and I'm not going to even get into which one is the "real" ITF), I would simply refrain from stating a website or adding the unique logo of each association, instead opting for the traditional ITF seal that is already in use. At least for the time being. --March Fox (talk) 16:11, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

I removed the one link from the infobox in the name of NPOV. Which is the "real" ITF is an open question. Though I will note that it was the latter group (whose website is now at https://www.itf-tkd.org/ ) is the one that signed an accord with World Taekwondo to allow members to participate in the other's tournaments. It also is still headquartered in Vienna. oknazevad (talk) 23:19, 26 September 2023 (UTC)