Talk:Internazionali di Tennis Città di Forlì

Internazionali di Tennis Città di Forlì and Città di Forlì – Trofeo MBM

The tournament archived in en.wiki as Internazionali di Tennis Città di Forlì was first organized in 2020 by MEF tennis events, the same company organized the first tournament in 2021. For the next tournaments, the owners of the club Villa Carpena assigned the organization to Asd Tennis Lab/Nen Events, company which organized 2 events in 2021 (on hard surface) and, so far, 6 tournaments in 2022 (the first 5 on hard court and the 6th on clay), all of them under the new name Città di Forlì. All of these tournaments have been under control of the Villa Carpena club, that just chose to change organizer and name. Anyway I see that en.wiki puts the 6th tournament of 2022 under Internazionali di Tennis Città di Forlì, but as a matter of fact it has been organized as Città di Forlì and in the web-site of MEF tennis events it is written that there will be no tournament in 2022. So far, Italian wikipedia is keeping all of these tournaments in just one page, it:Città di Forlì, giving priority to the owners of the club because they choose the organizers. Sorry I could find only these sources written in Italian:

• Internazionali Forlì on the MEF tennis events website (please note that in this website it is written that there will be no tournament in 2022)
• Forlitoday.it, digital news of Forlì town
• livetennis.it
• website of the Italian Tennis Federation.

Mr. @Adamtt9:, please let me know what you think about it, thank you. --Carlo58s (talk) 15:56, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

@Carlo58s: Ask User:Opencross. I had originally had them all under one page until he came along and requested a split, saying the tournaments held on hard court were separate from the ones on clay. Adamtt9 (talk) 15:58, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Adamtt9:, actually the difference between the tournaments is only the organization, in the website of the Italian Federation it is written that the last held last week was Città di Forlì VI and the organization was the same of the previous 5 tournaments, that were played on hard courts because of the weather. Mat be @Opencross: didn't know it. It is actually difficult to find reliable sources in English language about this tournament. --Carlo58s (talk) 16:22, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up.

We have italian references on both mentioned main articles. There's google translate for cases where links into english language cannot be provided (also there are multiple cases of links into spanish language, and i had to link czech language links too), so that doesn't constitute a problem in itself.

As you well referenced the Internazionali di Tennis Città di Forlì 's website states "no Challenger for 2022", evidence n.1, plus protennis official main draw site provides different name for this tournament "Forlì Open", too. Evidence n.2. There is no mention whatsoever on Villa Carpena's website about previous past finals, and if this edition is in prosecution of indoor hard court 2022 tournament played there ( which are on protennis site under the different name of Città di Forlì)

So, following en.wiki tennis guidelines this edition was mistakenly added here. It should be made as an independent article under the name Forlì Open.

User:Adamtt9, since you're the main article creator here, would you mind to take the matter in your hand and correct your previous rushed addition?

If you're busy with next week tournaments' pages creation, i'll do it myself whenever i can.

And thanks again to User:Carlo58s for ringing a bell on this . Opencross (talk) 17:00, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

I think User:Carlo58s is saying that the 2022 Internazionali di Tennis Città di Forlì is actually the sixth edition of the Città di Forlì – Trofeo MBM for 2022. Not under a new Forlì Open like you are saying. Adamtt9 (talk) 17:04, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, i've red him.

But there's no reference about that. And on en.wiki we have the tournaments separated, he has them all together, it's a different case.

And again i showed the two reliable evidence on this: protennis and official website.

Would you mind to upload any reference supporting the Città di Forlì case? If any, i would listen carefully to those. Opencross (talk) 17:09, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Actually, the statement of the Italian Tennis Federation is: "Questo sarà anche il sesto torneo challenger del 2022 (il Città di Forlì 6)" lit. this will be the 6th Challenger tournament of 2022 (the Città di Forlì 6)". --Carlo58s (talk) 17:43, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

And, sorry, another thing. The Trofeo MBM has been assigned only for the last two editions of 2021 tournaments, you will find many references for these two tournaments as Trofeo MBM, but no one for the following tournaments. --Carlo58s (talk) 17:50, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

About the edition in discussion, i think it's clear this is not the place it should have been attached to from the start.

It has to be moved away from here.

Where? To move it into another tournament page, we have to be sure that past finals confirmed it's the same tournament, usually by checking official tournament website. Lacking that, we need to have converging reliable sources confirming that this tournament is indeed the Città di Forlì tournament.

As of now, we have a conflict between Fit media press, and protennis which is, as User:Adamtt9 can say, the very reliable source we use for any tournaments singles and doubles page.

The protennis site calls all 5 previous editions "Città di Forlì". The last one in discussion, which happened a few weeks apart from those, is called "Forlì Open".

To me that's enough not to attach this edition to that tournament. And to make it an independent page. Opencross (talk) 20:18, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

It is sure that there is the same club (Villa Carpena) with the same managers, the same organizer, the same sponsors (Region Emilia-Romagna, City of Forli' government, Italian Tennis Federation (FIT), etc.) Both FIT and protennis sources are reliable, so both might be true. Probably they gave the new name Forli' Open to this 6th tournament to emphasize the fact that it is a CH125, but still it is the 6th edition of the 2022 Forli' tournaments. So far there were this year 1 CH50, 4 CH80 and this CH125. A last thing @Opencross:, the first 2 tournaments of 2020 and 2021 differs from the next ones only because of the organizers, MEF Tennis Events, this agency accepted to organize the events and, as they always do even with other important tournaments, they also offer to set up a website. But the decisions at the end are always taken by the club and his sponsors, and they decided to change organizers back in 2021. This is why so far it.wiki is still keeping all of the tournaments under the same name, that continues to change even now that there is the same organizer. It would be probably easier to choose the name Forli' Challenger and not to care about all of these changes, as long as the decisions makers are the same. --Carlo58s (talk) 20:56, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Which is what I was doing until Opencross said to move everything. Adamtt9 (talk) 21:32, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

And it looks like Opencross has does whatever he wanted without letting the conversation end. Adamtt9 (talk) 21:15, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

I moved on on the basis on what was already said above. Your last comment was a personal comment on me ( the third of fourth, i lost the exact counting), the other user was second-guessing the intention of "decision-makers".

Wikipedia is founded on reliable sources, not on personal comments or second-guessing.

I think you went ahead and created a new page here. Didn't you? I re-checked the time: you went from that comment above to create the page in 40 min, so i think you waited 20 min top before start making the page and published right away. And nobody questioned that. How about that?

Also, you made the wrong addition on this page, unsourced, as per its official website stating on its frontpage in capslock "no challenger in 2022", and i am the one having my way for correcting your mistake after 3 days? You sure have some gall to write that. Opencross (talk) 21:45, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

@Opencross: my second guess was only about the reason why they gave a different name to the 6th tournament of this year. But it is confirmed that it is part of the Città di Forlì in this interview of the tournament director (in the same article there is an interview to a member of the board of directors of the club, with the statement that the first 2 tournaments of 2020 and 2021 were under the control of the board}, this statement of the Italian Tennis Federation (they call the 6th tournament "Città di Forlì 6") and This article on Il Resto del Carlino, the most important newspaper in Forli', with an interview to the vice president of the club Ferruccio Tassinari, and he says that it is the 6th tournament of the year. Please note that these are very reliable sources. About the statement of the old and obsolete website, they write about the fact that there is no tournament organized by them. I believe that they are very angry because the club chose another agency to organize the tournament. They are probably the owners of the name "Internazionali di Tennis Città di Forlì", but the tournaments went on under another name and another organization, but always under the control of the Board of the club.--Carlo58s (talk) 09:21, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, you're just repeating the point i have already answered it above.

Wikipedia goes with reliable sources. Please note that not any news is a reliable source.

There are primary and secondary sources.

On en.wiki tennis: official website, their past finals, and protennis are golden standard sources for tournaments. This is not a theoretical point of view, this is how any tournament in here has been referenced ( see their main pages and singles'doubles pages).

We don't aggregate tournaments by city as it.wiki does on Forlì and also on Biella tournaments.

We had discussion and WP:CONSENSUM was reached to divide those, long before i started editing here (see Biella Challenger Indoor ).

I thus follow en.wiki tennis guidelines, and also common practice, if new cases arise.

I see you have a discussion ongoing on how to title this last Forlì edition, the previous ones, and the whole Forlì tournaments that started in 2020 on WP:TENNIS talk page. I also see it.wiki tennis hasn't even reached consensum on what is notable about tennis players since long time here. So i don't know what rules or guidelines you're following here, maybe unofficial, maybe you're forced to step in to take some decision by the lack of official guidelines. I don't know. The gathering of all tournaments by city on it.wiki is a legit choice ( de.wiki gives kind of the same preference, writing the name of the city BEFORE the name of the tournament on yearly circuit page recap). I wish you to have that stated in the guidelines, but en.wiki follow its own rules, as per guidelines and consensum.

Clearing this umbrella speech, i'll dig into the specific case.

Primary and most reliable sources are protennis and official website. Both said this is not the 2022 edition of Internazionali di tennis Città di Forlì or the sixth edition of 2022 Città di Forlì. And protennis calls it by a different name, whilst it called all the five 2022 Città di Forlì's editions with the same name, i.e. it differentiates this tournament from both of them. For en.wiki it's case closed.

Anyhow, as i posted in the edit summary, this is the current situation. Nothing prevents in the future (i've red somewhere that this is the last tournament played on Forlì this year, not the "last edition of the tournament this year", do you see the different meaning of that?) that things will change, maybe they will make a new official website and put this edition there into the past finals, who knows? In that case therefore en.wiki users will make the due and sourced adjustments. But as it stands right now, we cannot make edits based on "maybes" by WP:CRYSTAL policy, so we take decisions based on the actual reliable sources we have. Cheers. Opencross (talk) 12:21, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I had no idea about the guide lines in en.wiki, I just wanted to help to make clear a situation that, as you know, it's not yet clear even in it.wiki. I thought that a website like the one of the Federazione Italiana Tennis (FIT) could have been considered reliable in en.wiki. Please even if it is not, take a look at this article I found today, even if it is from the FIT, it might help, it is an announcement of the 2022 Forlì Open made from the organizers and the club Villa Carpena, thank you. --Carlo58s (talk) 15:38, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, i've already checked also this article after your first heads-up. It's not a good source as official website and protennis, and its phrasing is very ambiguous.

Just the "Forlì Open Tennis" mentioned in there (to refer to the last 2022 tournament played in Forlì) is a mistake that it alone would invalid any consideration to use this article as reference on wiki, because it contradicts protennis. Opencross (talk) 21:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Adamtt9: and @Opencross:, thank you for your opinions. Actually Opencross and I have different points of view, and it would be interesting to know what Adamtt9 thinks about it. And please, would you be so kind, both of you, to let me know where I can find the guidelines of en.wiki where it is written that only protennislive is the reliable source where there is no official website? It would be a great help for it.wiki to see those guidelines, we usually consider reliable multiple sources, including important newspapers and important organizations like the national tennis federations. Thank you. Carlo58s (talk) 23:14, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I would be glad to help. First of all, I agreed with User:Carlo58s originally actually. Like I had said earlier, I had all of the Forlì tournaments organized under one article just because of all of the changes in surface and organizers and whatever. Then we split them between the ones on clay and the tournaments on hard. If this one mentions itself as the sixth version of the Città di Forlì tournaments, then we should move it there. To answer your other question, there is no policy that states protennislive is the reliable source for tennis tournaments. That is just one source we use but it doesn't have any more importance than other sources we find. Adamtt9 (talk) 23:23, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Adamtt9: ah, ok. And do you think the website of the Italian Tennis Federation (FIT) is reliable? If it is reliable, please tell me what you think about this phrase coming from an interview to the organizer and a member of the board of the club talking about the 6th edition, that you can find written in Italian on the FIT website: After all, the "Forlì Open", in its two years of life, has proven to be an incubator of talents destined to make their way into the ranking, starting with Lorenzo Musetti, winner of the first edition of 2020, organized in record time during the lockdown from a group of friends and tennis lovers. Please note that I sent you the translation in English done with Google translate. Carlo58s (talk) 03:15, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

The problem here is that we have Musetti as the winner of the first edition of the Internazionali di Tennis Città di Forlì so it seems that there is some inconsistency. If it is the sixth edition but also Musetti won the first edition, something doesn't add up. Adamtt9 (talk) 03:55, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Adamtt9: Sorry, I meant the 6th edition of 2022, not the 6th edition on the whole tournament. The organizer and the club's board claim that all the 10 tournaments played in Forli' since the first edition of the 2020 Internazionali di Tennis Città di Forlì until the 6th of 2022 are all editions of the same tournament. Please translate by yourself the whole interview https://www.federtennis.it/Federazione/News/Attivita-internazionale/challenger-125-Forli-annuncio-organizzatori and you will find it out. Carlo58s (talk) 08:19, 16 June 2022 (UTC)