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Talk:Internet filter/Archive 2

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Latest comment: 7 years ago by InternetArchiveBot in topic External links modified
Archive 1Archive 2

Page title move

Latest comment: 10 years ago20 comments4 people in discussion

Following up on the anon -- it is possible we could move the page to "content-filtering software"? The redirect from "censorware" would still remain, but I am more and more uncomfortable with using the term, which does have a POV tilt in as much as it describes something as censorship when it is really not technically censorship in all cases. I don't know -- any thoughts? Sdedeo (tips) 16:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Per above, I would claim that "censorware" is *accurate*, and "filtering" is not. Indeed, I would say "filtering" also has a POV tilt - there's uncounted times I've heard a little song-and-dance about "We all need *filters*, *filters* are necessary ...".
I would most strongly, emphatically, dispute the idea that "filtering" is NPOV.
Between two such choices, I assert one should take the less confusing one. Regarding censorSHIP, I'd say "censorware" is a derived coinage, in the same way we talk about "a taxing task" (even though that doesn't involve paying money to the government), or "policing the language" (even though that doesn't involved men in blue uniforms from the government). -- Seth Finkelstein 22:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
What about "Content Control" instead? That gives the most NPOV, in my opinion - it's more accurate of what the application actually does (allows people to control content - whether they do it for "Censorship" or "Filtering" purposes is irrelevant.)

"Censorware" I do think is problematic. For example, we do not refer to the MPAA ratings as "censorship" -- but one of the uses of these kinds of software is to achieve similar things. "Tax" is a very old word, lost in the midsts of time, but "censorware" is a very recent coinage of "censor"+"ware" used only by people who criticize it -- while the IRS does indeed use the word "tax"!

Can you come up with something that is neutral? "Content filtering" seems pretty neutral IMO, but perhaps there is another term. I mean, it's pretty clear that only one side uses "censorware" as a term, and that makes it as problematic as "internet safety tool" or whatever the companies are calling it. Sdedeo (tips) 02:22, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but my point is that "taxing" and "policing" are used in metaphorical, non-governmental contexts. Note for a close example, that spyware sure isn't the term used by the makers of those programs either. Again, "filtering" is confusing, because while I've never heard "We all need censorware", there's many times I've seen someone say "We need filtering because ...". So it's most assuredly not a neutral term. -- Seth Finkelstein 18:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
(What you mean is that "filtering" is not confusing, but rather non-neutral -- in the same fashion that censorware, I believe, is. Sdedeo (tips) 21:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC))
No, I have two different, though related arguments: 1) "filtering" is non-neutral. 2) It is non-neutral in a confusing way.
The censorware companies themselves use this term extensively, so I'd say since they want the word associated with them, that's strong evidence of non-neutral implications. -- Seth Finkelstein 22:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


What does, say, the New York Times use to refer to these programs? Or, let's say, Wired? These are generally neutral places to look (if anything, slanted anti-censorware.) Sdedeo (tips) 21:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm -- OK, the New York Times uses the word "filter":

This year one of the three winners was Seth Finkelstein, an activist who decrypts filtering programs, the software used by private companies, libraries and schools to block out undesirable sites. [1]

Hey, wait, that's you!

A plaintiff in a case uses the term "filtering":

Library Grapples With Internet Freedom (Oct. 15) mentioned the Loudoun County library filtering litigation. That case, in which I am a plaintiff, argues that filtering software is overbroad, blocks numerous innocent and socially valuable sites and cannot pass the strict tests imposed by the First Amendment. [2]

Nearly all the opponents use the term "censorware".

I have a strong feeling that court documents involving these things will use the term "filtering". My feeling is that WP:NPOV means we should be using something similar to "content-filtering", which I believe is the most neutral description.

Sdedeo (tips) 21:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Yup, that's me. Guilty :-). But I didn't write the article :-)
In my view, over the years, censorware proponents have waged a PR campaign to say that use of the word "censorware" is partisan, while "filter" is proper. They've been very successful at it. However, that does not make them right - or NPOV, In fact, I think that campaign is evidence of the opposite. Since one of the major censorware programs is called "SmartFILTER" (my caps), that shows it's hardly a *neutral* term.
Regarding court documents, in fact, I got deposed on this very point in expert witness testimony, with a government lawyer questioning me on the linguistic implications of my terminology, trying to cast doubt on my testimony. But again, I'd say that shows the PR campaign, and my reply to the lawyer was that I felt I was being accurate.
I hardly deny that words have connotations. I'm saying, given a choice, pick the word that leads to less confusion in discussion. When we talk of "censorware", it's obvious what it means. "Filtering" has too many meanings. -- Seth Finkelstein 22:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe "internet content filtering" is pretty unambiguous -- I don't think that's a problem.

Really, Seth, my googling has not convinced me that "censorware" is anything close to a neutral term. The only uses of the term censorware I have seen have been by partisans in the fight, while "filter" and various cognates are used by all sides. It is true that companies prefer filter, but when the New York Times explicity avoids using the term "censorware" in favor of filter in articles on the subject, I think that what WP:NPOV requires here is pretty clear.

Can you provide neutral sources -- e.g., a major newspaper -- using the word "censorware" that are not in the form of editorials? Sdedeo (tips) 23:56, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, whatever we decide, I will probably write a short thing about terminology for the article: can you provide (does there exist) a link to your testimony you mention? Sdedeo (tips) 00:02, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Quote WP:NPOV : "It is not asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one". Again, I cannot see how one can maintain that a term favored by a major product (SmartFILTER, my caps) is a neutral term. All you are measuring is that their PR campaign has been successful, in contrast to e.g. the makers of Spyware. Successful PR is hardly the same as neutrality. I'm arguing that censorware is the *best* term overall, given the various trade-offs which must be made.
I don't think my deposition is on-line - it was supposed to be, but last I checked, it hadn't been processed. If you want a citation, perhaps my testimony to the Library Of Congress would serve. I have a copy on my site, but since you asked, I'll assume it's not self-promotion for me to reply:

DMCA Exemption Censorware Hearing 2003

"Now you'll note throughout the entire proceedings I have talked of censorware, not filtering software. That is not merely partisan politics. That is a very important difference in how I think about this issue. When somebody talks of a filter, that conjures up the image of this ugly, yucky, horrible, toxic stuff that you're taking away and leaving a clean and purified result, like a coffee filter or a dirt filter. You just want to throw the ugly stuff away.

But that's not what these products do. What these products do is they control what people are allowed to read, and that's a profoundly different issue. Because when you try to control what people are allowed to read, and you try to put them in a blinder box, you can't ever let them out."

-- Seth Finkelstein 00:44, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reference, I think that explains the position very well. Can you provide any example of a newspaper using the term censorware outside of the editorial page? It may be the case that "censorware" is the truly neutral term, and the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and other publications have been tricked, but that's not for wikipedia to assert.

If you have any other good references about the terminology, please let me know.

We are going in circles a bit, and I don't think we're going to come to consensus on a page name change (so until others join in, I'm happy to leave it as it), but this discussion has been valuable in any case. Sdedeo (tips) 00:48, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I thing that "content control" would be a most neutral term - especially given your quote "What these products do is they CONTROL what people are allowed to read" (my caps). "Censor" *is* felt by some as a negative word - I don't know that people feel the same way about "Control". And in reality, that is what all these programs are doing - they are controlling what people see, not censoring what people see. 207.155.178.182 13:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I worry that coining a new phrase violates WP:NOR; unfortunately, I can only find "filter" and "censorware" used out there in the literature. Can you provide an example of a newspaper or journal using "content control"? Sdedeo (tips) 20:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that I can - I was coining a new phrase, mainly just from reading the above comments. From what I've found on a news.google.com search for "content control", I get hits for controlling (a la filtering/censoring) television and for internal network content controls (not allowing employees to view material that they shouldn't have access to on the Intranet). A search on google.com (not news) yields a few hits for companies that provide filtering/censoring products - but that's about it. If coining a new term violates WP:NOR, then so be it. I'm not emotionally tied to it in any way. 207.155.178.182 04:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that "censor" is a negative word, and I like "content control" -- if only we could find a reference to it in the newspapers that we could cite! Sdedeo (tips) 21:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I found a couple on CNN.com - one about the rejection of the .xxx domain (http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/internet/05/11/xxx.domain.ap/index.html) - "ICANN first tabled its bid in 2000 out of fear it would be getting into content control." That quote is actually in quite a few newspapers that I was able to find. Another one is http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/04/27/eyeonchina.internet/. This one is especially pertinent because it is about "censorship" in China.

There are also people from both sides of the issue who use the term. Playboy (anti-censorware) uses the term "Content-control" in this article: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6336423.html. Websense and Micrsoft (pro-censorware) uses the term in this article: http://www.efytimes.com/fullnews.asp?edid=12098

A review on a book by the New York Times uses the term http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9403E1D8143BF933A05752C1A961958260

An article in the San Francisco Chronicle http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:u6Golw6fCu8J:www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi%3Ffile%3D/news/archive/2002/10/25/financial1400EDT0155.DTL%26type%3Dprintable+internet+%22content+control%22+site:sfgate.com (the link on their site is dead - this is the google cache of it) quotes a Harvard Law School "expert" using the term to describe the filtering/censorship that Spain, Saudi Arabia and China use. That article is interesting in the fact that it shows the term was in use nearly 4 years ago (the article is from October 2002.)

Actually, during the effort that I have spent looking up references, it seems that it's not a new term - and that it is quite a neutral one as well. I would strongly suggest using it. 207.155.178.182 14:46, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Awesome work. I'll fiddle with the article later this weekend. Sdedeo (tips) 16:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Filtering is a broader term than censoring. I can filter content willingly for myself to view a purificated content, or the filtering can be by someone else deciding about the need of filtering and the nature of content to be filtered instead of me. The later is called censoring. (A bit away from the point: I am desperately looking for an application that enables me to hide comments of users that I previously identifed as non desirable to see. This would be no censorship, as I am not denying the speakers of voicing their opinion but, instead deny to read them myself - thus my decision affects only myself, not others. Once more: censorship is denying the decision for others to be done about what content they want to see. It is not necessarily negative, eg.: defending minors from intrusive content, but it is paternalistic, be it for a good reason, or a bad one.) 94.66.129.89 (talk) 21:02, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

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