Talk:Iran Aseman Airlines Flight 6895

Flight 6875 or 6895?

ASN consistently reports the former, 6875. user:Russavia is showing a link to the schedule for the day of the accident from the airport's website. Which is to be trusted? I rather trust ASN... Presently the article reads 6895 with the ASN source contradicting it. --Mareklug ^talk 05:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, ASN is now showing both, one in the infobox-like summary one in the text. So it would seem 6895 is correct. --Mareklug ^talk 05:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

As the site I linked to is a live departure/arrivals for Manas Airport, that should be trusted over any other resource first and foremost. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 09:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I just had to unlink it, since the 24th August info is no longer accessible, only the 26th. Confusingly, there is a flight by Itek Air of the same number to Mashad listed there now. Replaced it with ASN ref.

Incidentally, someone elese's claim that the aircraft was destined for Khomeni International makes no sense, as Iran Aseman Airlines has a base at the other airport in the city, THR. I fixed that and attributed it to ASN, where this information has been shown all along. The link purported to show otherwise (in edit summary) was in Arabic and I found no English-language info at Khomeni International website that would let on that the plane was indeed destined there. --Mareklug ^talk 09:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Survivors

The article claims that 22 survived, while the table only shows 21 survivors. I don't know what to do, so can someone with knowledge of this incident please make the two are consistent with each other? A Prodigy^Talk 17:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, someone has fixed this. Seems that the Canadian survivor has been accounted for in the table. A Prodigy^Talk 17:05, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there any confirmation of the number of crew members that survived? AP says 2, BBC says all 7 ! Raamin (talk) 01:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Small airfield

I went to wikimapia to latitude, longitude indicated and was suprised to find an airfield not suited to the opperation of a 737. Looks kind short, with limited ground facilities, more like something a cessna 172 might feel ok with. Is there something I am not seeing?

I don't know how big the airport has to be, but the first reference shows a location near the same airport (map links in my section below), so that's where they think it happened. Art LaPella (talk) 21:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Some 737-200 series were fitted with a gravel kit, allowing them to use unpaved runways. Given that this is possible for the 737-200 (I don't know whether this particular aircraft was modified for such conditions), it's entirely possible that a country with lax safety standards such as the one operating this particular aircraft (Kyrgyzstan) might allow it. It's also possible that the pilot was thinking only of landing, not caring whether it was really feasable to take off again or whether it damaged the plane beyond salvage. Cargocontainer (talk) 05:18, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

This discussion is based on false premises. Wikimapia gives a map scale; anonymous user, I suggest you avail yourself of it! This ariport has a 4,200 meters of concrete runway. One runway, sure, but damn long. Not exactly a "small airfield". :) Since it was built by the Soviets, it always was a major airforce base with huge transport planes coming in and going out, at MTOW. It's only at 700 m above the sea, too, so you don't need a long runway there for that reason. During an emergency, you could sit down 3 737-219 without a problem on each third of the available concrete, all landing at the same time. :) → Manas International Airport --Mareklug ^talk 09:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Airport or crash site?

The infobox says: "Site 2 km from the runway threshold at Manas International Airport, Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan [show location on an interactive map] 43°3′28″N 74°28′43″E" Those coordinates are the coordinates of an airport near Bishkek, not the crash site "2 km from the runway threshold". Your first reference links to this "accident location map". As you can see here, I found that location is about 43° 4' 1" N, 74° 31' 38" E. But do you usually show the airport location or the crash location? Art LaPella (talk) 21:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Crash site if available, but when I wrote this down and put in the coordinates, that's all we had. Which is why I gave the airport with limited precision (1 second) and an annotation where to expect the wreckage. Wikimapia did not contain this crash site then; now it contains a rather huge rectangle as large as a good-sized airport, perhaps in the right area, albeit not aligned with the 08 approach (but on that side of the ariport, more or less 2 km out). --Mareklug ^talk 10:07, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

P.s. Aviation Safety Network, which is the source you are referring to, has this over all its maps: Map showing the approximate location of the accident [accuracy within a radius of several to several tens of kilometers]. Plus, the point given and the one you remapped is on 26 approach, coming from the opposite side of the airport, given where the aircraft would be coming back from. Possible, not plausible. --Mareklug ^talk 10:44, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't consider any of the above, but I couldn't verify it. Wikimapia now shows a smaller box using the Aviation Safety Network's location and citing them, and using a nearby location: 43° 4' 0" N, 74° 31' 40" E. Iran is west of Kyrgyzstan, but the last time I was on a (routine) commercial flight, it went 10 miles past the airport and circled back, presumably to get a headwind. In an emergency you might want to land more immediately, but then again you might want to land more carefully, depending on what kind of emergency and how they perceived it at the time. I don't know where you got the 08 statistic, but the runway shows the number 08 on the west end and 26 on the east end. Art LaPella (talk) 16:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I have now moved the coordinates accordingly. Art LaPella (talk) 04:40, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The available precision does not justify your edit, least of all the ASN map with its disclaimer, and other reasons already discussed. Furthermore, I've received additional information from the Wikimapia editor who added the huge rectangle on the opposite side of the airport from where you and ASN pinpointed the crash. Pinpointed should be quotes. Incidentally, he also wrote in English albeit in the Russian langauge version of your spot, that it is the wrong spot. He also retitled it "Potato field". :) I have in turn listed it for deletion. Anyway, here goes:

Mareklug 1 day ago
Re: IAA Flight 6895 crash site: What is your source, and why would you map such a huge area? It is not on the direct approach vector for 08, so I think it's likely mistaken. It is also not 2km from the airport, which Aviation Safety Network gives as location. Best wishes, --Marek (user:Mareklug)

Bowner 11 hours ago
Hello Marek,

Thanks for asking. I, actually, have grown in this area and know every tree around. I looked through lots of pictures that were made on site and local TV reports. I'm still not sure about direction of landing but, if plane has experiencing emergency, it could be any. This particular area is left downwind for runway 08. I mapped that huge area because that is for sure is near Dzhany-Dzher village and close to the chicken farms (center of area), as said one girl who was on site. Here is the one particular video from crashsite:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=146609&cid=9&doc_type=news&doc_id=203920
Sorry, it's in Russian

Other sources said the crashsite is 5 km or 10 km from runway as well. Sincerely, Alex

Bowner 2 hours ago
TV Reporter, which was on site right after the crash is unfamiliar with location and she just sent me driving directions which confirm the spot I marked.

The above info, in conjunction with ASN disclaimer suggest keeping the coordinates firmly on what is known, the airport coordinates. I have reverted your edit for those reasons. Perhaps the annotation about 2 km should also be struck and replaced by 5-10 km. --Mareklug ^talk 12:08, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds convincing. Art LaPella (talk) 13:59, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

American airbase

I heard some controversy about an american airbase being next to the airport where this Iran-bound plane took off. Is there anything on that? It certainly adds to the perception building up between the two. Lihaas (talk) 22:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

In the article of the 4th ref, it says: "Maj. Damian Pickart, public affairs officer for the U.S. air base located at the Manas airport, said U.S. ambulances and firefighting equipment were dispatched to the crash site in response to a Kyrgyz request for help." Spencer^T♦C 23:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

a user has been trying to marginalize or make this response appear questionable. I've been keeping an eye out and reverting it, since it's plain to see that the response did happen, but for some reason he insists upon trying to make it appear as if it's questionable whether they responded at all. Even the military doesn't make that sort of thing up, and if they did, the article would have specified a lack actual response. Cargocontainer (talk) 14:41, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

a misunderstanding?

If you see something like "ОШ" in the departure list of Manas Airport, be aware that it is NOT "OIII", the ICAO code for Mehrabad Airport; it is Osh! ;)
I'm not 100% sure, whether the destination was actually "IKA" or not; but I know, that all international flights towards Tehran belong to IKA. Raamin (talk) 01:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

This is known as OR in these parts. You have no clue, where the airport of destination was, but you went ahead and changed it to Khomeni because you know all international flights fly there!

THR is a base of operations for Iran Aseman Airlines and this was a charter flight. A little digging will reveal that international flights do make it to and out of THR just the same. THR not being the chief international airport of Tehran anyhmore is hardly conmpelling evidence for dicking with the info so recklessly. Plus ASN shows THR as destination, and I sourced that, what withe Russavia's original live link no longer showing information for that date. The ASN page does contain a mistake -- they continues to show "6875" in the text note, after having corrected the flight number in their "infobox" to "6895". Just the same, I trust their THR destination information more than OR. --Mareklug ^talk 09:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, don't be rude! i'm an experienced wikipedian as well. I gave a link (this one), but it seems it can't be accessed directly; visit http://ikia.ir ; klick "English"; then "schadule flightse" (ha ha ha!!!!!); then you see a detailed list, in ENGLISH; you will see "IRC6895" and "IRC6896". Keep in mind, that the list isn't updated; it is for winter 2007/08. Actually IRNA states that the destination of IRC6895 on 24-08-2008 was IKA [1]; BBCPersian too [2]. If you insist that the destination was Mehrabad, please give a better and more trustworthy source than ASN. Raamin (talk) 18:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not being rude, just pointing out that you OR-ed and gave a useless link as justification. Now that you reverted back to your information in two places, you linked in the infobox to a source in Farsi (which is not transparent to English Wikipedia editors) while leaving in place in the text itself the ASN ref, which continues to say THR. Is this how an experienced wikipedian edits? Please document Khomeni International as destination more plausibly, in English, and without leaving contraditory sourcing in place, in the article body. Just because you have an IRNA dispatch in Farsi, does not quite do the job of satisfying WP:VER. IRNA in Farsi is no more plausible than ASN in English, when it comes to aircraft hull losses. I'm reverting you for reasons given here. Regards, --Mareklug ^talk 22:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

1) When I changed the source, I intended to make minimal changes; and I simply overlooked the <ref name="ASN" /> after Mehrabad in the Text. Even experienced users do mistakes! 2) I gave you here 2 sources confirming IKA as destination. You didn't give any other source in English stating Mehrabad as destination; and I don't find ASN reliable, when I see 6895 and 6875 at once. It is interesting: EVEN in http://www.asemansafety.ir/, a website of Aseman Airlines, it states "فرودگاه امام خمينی" aka Imam Khomeini Airport [3]. 3) I find "Persian" sufficient and "Farsi" needless; in en.wikipedia there is a Persian language article; besides "Persian" is more widely used in English. Raamin (talk) 04:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

When faced with conflicting sources for destination in the same city, it is wiser to keep mention of both destinations, with each sourced to its evidence. That is what I did. Your coming in and again obliterating the ASN, just because you trust the Persian-language sources but not ASN is not good practice, especially as this was a charter flight and IAA could have plausibly beein flying to its operations center. Please restore the competing information you deleted, that the sources are in disagreement, and please return ASN reference for THR/OIII as destination. Until we know for sure, and have English sourcing for IKA, this is the best thing to do, as it fulfills WP:VER criteria (we source what the available references claim, not what is necessarily true, unless we know the sources to be mistaken; and we don't know that here). --Mareklug ^talk 12:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry; I disagree. I cited 3 independent sources as evidence; one of them "asemansafety.ir" of Iran Aseman Airlines! All 3 cover the incident itself and all 3 confirm "IKA" as destination. I find BBC and Aseman Airlines itself much more reliable sources than ASN; it has nothing to do with Persian and English. Citing BBC over ASN is a bad practice? Since when? ASN is the only place I saw that suggests Mehrabad as destination. I will not add anything myself, because I don't find ASN trustworthy; for me it is like wikipedia. If you insist on adding ASN, you should state explicitly that ASN suggests Mehrabad as destination. Best regards. Raamin (talk) 20:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

OH! Interesting turn of events! :)) It seems that my email to ASN worked! Here you are: ASN, and IKA as destination of IRC6895. Raamin (talk) 21:02, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Excellent work. You were right, and congratulations on getting correct information into the ASN, where I see, even the flight number is now uniformly correct, as well as IKA given as destination. Incidentally, BBC wasn't reporting IKA at the time I saw it. Thank you. --Mareklug ^talk 02:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Technical Inspection

There's a final sentence which states the plane passed a full technical inspection in May 2008. Was this not by the Kry. authority, of which airlines registered to it are forbidden to fly in the EU because of concerns over the authorities competence? Toby Douglass (talk) 15:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering this myself, but the reference appeared from the tags to be in Russian, so I left it alone. Any Russian-speaking users care to check into it? Cargocontainer (talk) 05:59, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Cause

Has the cause of the crash has been confirmed, or is it under investigation? Chris1193 (talk) 16:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

There sort of investigations, if done properly anyway, usually take months, sometimes more then a year. The crash happened a few days ago. What do you think? Nil Einne (talk) 00:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I know its an obvious question, but, usually you put 'Under Investigation' in the infobox until the cause has been confirmed, instead of the suspected cause immediately after the crash. There has been about 2 or 3 changes to the cause of this crash. Chris1193 (talk) 14:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

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