Talk:Iranian Enlightenment/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Cerebellum (talk · contribs) 10:39, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Hello! I will be reviewing this article. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:39, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

I'll place my comments below as I work through the article, no need to do anything until the review is complete. --Cerebellum (talk) 11:05, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

General

• Title: what sources use this title? I dislike it because it suggests that there were no intellectual movements in Iran until 19th century – one could argue that the shu'ubiyya in the 9th century was one of the first recorded intellectual movements, and I'm sure there were others before that. I would prefer Iranian Enlightenment, or something like Intellectual history of Iran (1850–1921).
  • Cerebellum well i took it from Intellectual movements in Iran but i guess that itself is not much of a trustworthy article Amir Ghandi (talk) 14:13, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough, are you ok with moving it? --Cerebellum (talk) 11:37, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

i think Iranian Enlightenment would be good

• Some of the references are missing page numbers, such as #1, 2, #7, #16. In general if you cite a book or article, you need to specify what page the information is coming from.
• During this same period, the Nahda (Arab Enlightenment) was taking place in the Arab world. Were the Nahda and the Iranian Enlightenment related or independent?
  • there is some article and books about Correspondence between Rifa'a al-Tahtawi and Mirza Malkam Khan, but overall i guess they were independent

Lead

• Iranian thinkers based their work on confronting religious traditions: My only familiarity with this topic comes from Roy Mottahedeh's The Mantle of the Prophet, but he emphasizes the dynamic nature of the religious tradition. Our own article on religious intellectualism in Iran shows how Islam was developing during the 19th century. So not all Iranian thinkers were confronting the tradition, some were reforming it. I think this sentence should be rephrased to something like Secular Iranian thinkers based their work on confronting religious traditions.
  • done.
• the strictness and intellectual prejudice of some religious people caused intellectual-scientific decline. This is an expression of a POV; if I asked a Shia cleric, they would probably say it was liberal ideas that were causing decline. I think this should be rephrased to avoid using Wikipedia's voice, something like According to Ali Akbar Velayati, the strictness and intellectual prejudice of some religious people caused intellectual-scientific decline.
  • done

Background

• As a result, a number of French-speaking princes, students, and literates traveled to France in 1843 to study. So the war ended in 1828, then in 1843 people went to France to study. Why the 15-year gap? Was there a particular reason why they went in 1843?
  • It didn't really matter to Fath Ali Shah, and in the early years Mohammad Shah was busy in revolts throughout Iran and the war in Herat.
• The economic situation of Iran after the reign of Fath Ali Shah Qajar became a feudal economy due to the rise of Qajar princes throughout Iran. This suggests that the Safavid economy was not feudal - is that correct?
  • according to this article Safavid economy was based on trade, but in later years (especially Sultan Husayn's reign) due on wars They were broke
• Each toman was equal to 100 pence. I would remove this, it only helps people who are familiar with British currency and presumably the value of 100 pence has changed over time, does it mean 100 pence in the 19th century? The paragraph is fine without it.
  • i think it is Confusing, i'll remove it
• When I look up sources like Society and market in the era of Naser al-Din Shah with a look at the social and economic situation in the Qajar era, I do not get any results on Google, is that because these books are in Farsi and you've translated the titles? If so it might help to provide the original title as well as the English translation.
  • book is in farsi and i forgot to add its ISBN
• Mass'oud Mirza Zell-e Soltan, the brother of Nasser al-Din Shah, took over all of Isfahan and its environs by poisoning and assassinating the Isfahan capitalists and seizing their property. This is quite shocking! I don't doubt you but I'm trying to verify the information, I couldn't find anything about it online. Would you be able to provide the quote from your source where it says this?
  • "Zell-e Soltan was famous for his 'Qajar Coffee' a poisoned coffee that he gave to his victims which caused their deaths, with this methode he was able to acquiring all the important and rich estate of Isfahan" page 40
• Since there was no basis for creating an intellectual society in Qajar Iran Sorry to beat the same drum again, but the thousands of Shia scholars in Qom constituted an intellectual society, right? Can we change this to Since there was no basis for creating a secular intellectual society in Qajar Iran?
  • unfortunately they didn't continue a Intellectual society because in time they engaged with Superstitions and slowly lost their intellectual aspect. but if it has problems i'm fine with changing it
• who according to one version, ordered twenty thousand pairs and according to another version, seventy thousand pairs of people went blind. The English here isn't clear, want to make sure I understand - Agha Mohammad Khan had 20,000 or 70,000 pairs of people blinded, a pair is two people so 40,000 or 140,000? We also need a source for this claim, I did not see anything about it in the Iranica article.
  • battle of Kerman is true, but I do not think that Agha Mohammad Khan ordered anyone to be blinded, however, city itself was damaged

Amir Kabir reforms

• but until the newspaper was banned, there was no censorship in articles and news. When was it banned?
  • the exact year is not mentioned but it probably was in Ahmad Shah's reign
• When Amir Kabir limited the power of the clergy, Mirza Abdul-qasem Tehrani opposed him and ordered grant refuge in Shah Abdol-Azim Shrine. I couldn't understand this, could you rephrase the sentence? Who took refuge in the shrine?
  • there is a tradition in Iran called Bast Neshini, it means when someone has opposite side with someone else (who is in power) for saving their lives they would hide in a Temple cause no one can assault to a Temple
• He ordered that the incalculable receipts and unreasonable benefits they received from government agencies be cut off. Who is "they"?
  • courtiers and princes
• The second-to-last paragraph does not have any references, we need at least one.
  • done
• Ref #34 does not say who the author is.
  • done
• They opened the veins of his hands and feet, and after a while of bleeding, Ali Khan Farash pointed to Mir Ghazb. He angrily hit Amir between the two shoulders with his boots. Because Amir hit the ground with a handkerchief in his throat until he died. This was hard for me to understand. Who are Ali Khan Farash and Mir Ghazb? Who hit Amir with his boots? I couldn't understand the last sentence at all, please rephrase it.
  • i'll just remove it cause it's not necessary here

Pre-constitutional intellectuals

• We need a reference for the first paragraph.
• the blessing of complete freedom. "Blessing" seems non-neutral to me.
  • removed it
• he believes that the despotic or oppressive rulers have taken it from us and condemned us to accept their affairs in this world. Non-neutral, please rephrase.
  • is "he believed that authoritarian governments take it from the people for their own benefits" neutral or should i change it?

Developments in the Iranian educational system

• Need reference for first paragraph.
  • added
• Thanks to these tireless support and efforts "Tireless" is non-neutral.
  • done
• but, Roshdieh built schools for the general public. Starting a sentence with "but" is not grammatically correct.
  • done

Post-constitutional developments in Iran

• Also, the 1906 constitution of Iran in its time was considered one of the most secular laws passed in a parliament among countries. "Was considered" is a weasel word, who considered it that?
• the tyranny of kings like Naser al-Din Shah "Tyranny" is a non-neutral word.
  • removed it
• Need reference for first paragraph of "Increasing the role of women in society".
  • added
• Farrokhi Yazdi: The Iranica article says that the story of him having his mouth sewn shut "may have had no basis in reality", we should mention that the story is disputed.
  • added
• Although Iraj Mirza was proud of his ancestry, there are poems left in his critique and slander of Mohammad Ali Shah and Ahmad Shah. Does not make sense in English, please revise.
  • i rephrased it
• Thus, apart from unreasonable love, hate and prejudice, he had made his intellectual and free-thinking personality his profession. Non-neutral.
  • i thinkk i'll remove it

Mirza Malkam Khan and Intellectual movements in Iran

• Mirza Malkam Khan's passionate views are to some extent a diagram of his influence on Rousseau's ideas. This makes it sound like Mirza Malkam influenced Rousseau.
  • rephrased
• Today, it has played a much stronger role than neighboring countries in accepting democracy, peaceful coexistence, non-violence, avoiding tyranny, and legalizing affairs. I'm not sure I understand this, you are saying that Iran plays a strong role in accepting democracy and non-violence?
  • i think i did a mistake on that, i'll jut remove it
• The section about Freemasonry is very interesting.

Leftist thinkers

• Haydar Khan was finally killed in 1921, his killer was never identified, but it is true that he had many disagreements with Mirza Kuchik Khan. This sentence leaves the reader with the idea that Mirza Kuchick Khan killed him, if that is the intent it is better to just say it with a source and attribution - "Following Haydar Khan's death, his allies accused Mirza Kuchik Khan of assassinating him", or something like that.
  • that actualy sounds better
• Many leftist thinkers in Iran are still influenced by him because the basis of the ideology of communism in Iran is the same moderation that Haydar Khan agreed with. Where in the DW article does it say this?
  • last paragraph before picture of Mohammad Taqi Pessian
• Eskandari's interest in social justice and equality was rooted more than any influence of European thinkers on European Enlightenment or socialism in Islam. Could not understand this sentence, please rephrase.
  • rephrased

Babist intellectuals

• A couple paragraphs here that do not have citations.
  • added

Decline

• They did not have a proper understanding of the backwardness of ordinary people due to their infancy. "Backwardness" and "infancy" are non-neutral terms.
  • rephrased

GA criteria

• Prose: Unfortunately, there are some grammar mistakes in the article. I think this article will need a thorough copy edit before it is ready for GA status.
• Verifiable: Yes, the article is well referenced.
• Broad: Yes, provides good coverage of all facets of the topic.
• Neutral: The article contains some non-neutral words and phrases, does not currently meet this criterion.
• Stable: Yes.
• Illustrated: Yes.

@Amir Ghandi: Thank you for all your work on this article! It was a joy to read and I learned a lot from it. Unfortunately I have to place it on hold for now, it is not at GA level yet. Please see my comments above, let me know if you disagree with anything. Other than the specific comments, the biggest issue is the prose, some mistakes in the grammar. I am determined not to fail it for that reason though - since most of the sources are in Persian, only a Persian speaker like you could have written this article, we need articles like this in English Wikipedia to counter our systemic bias toward the English-speaking world. If you can take care of the issues in my comments above, I will copy edit the article over the next week. --Cerebellum (talk) 11:37, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

• Cerebellum it's done, i took care of all issues. Amir Ghandi (talk) 07:30, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Amir Ghandi Great!! By Monday I will have the copy editing finished up! --Cerebellum (talk) 22:28, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Amir Ghandi Ok brother, all done. The more I read this article the more impressed I became. There were so many thinkers and events and you synthesized so many sources, this is truly a good article and I'm happy to pass as GA. As far as I can tell lots of this information is not available in English anywhere else on the internet so this article is quite valuable. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:44, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Cerebellum thanks, i appreciate that, though it has lots of work for featured article. Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:04, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

You can get there though! Featured article focuses a lot on formatting so make sure it complies with the MOS and make sure the references are formatted consistently. --Cerebellum (talk) 11:07, 30 May 2021 (UTC)