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Talk:Iranian religions

Latest comment: 1 year ago by Dr. Ivan Kučera in topic Yazdânism and Yarsanism
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Latest comment: 15 years ago10 comments2 people in discussion

Can we please move this back to Persian religions? Warrior4321#008080About MetalkContribs 23:44, 1 July 2009 (UTC)Reply

No. This article is not limited to "Persian religions" (whatever that is). -- Fullstop (talk) 00:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)Reply
All of these religions happen before the nation of Iran was actually called Iran. It was called before that, all of these religions take place in Persia. The page should be called Persian religion. Warrior4321talkContribs 00:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)Reply
Even if your ideas were correct, the age of names is not relevant here (or anywhere else). What this article is about is stated in the first sentence of the article. You may wish to follow the links if you don't understand the terms mentioned therein. -- Fullstop (talk) 01:16, 2 July 2009 (UTC)Reply
They did not originate in Greater Iran? They originated in Persia. Warrior4321talk 01:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)Reply
I'm afraid you will need to come up with lots of reliable sources to support your assertion. Wikipedia has a policy that exceptional claims require exceptional sources. This is necessary to preserve the integrity of the encyclopedia. Sorry. -- Fullstop (talk) 02:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)Reply
In Persian Empire it states that the name Persia was used until 1935. All of these religions are before 1935 and were therefore made in the Persian Empire. Therefore, they are Persian religions. Warrior4321talk 03:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)Reply
See my previous remark (02:21) about reliable sources . See also Wikipedia's policy on the publication of your thoughts. See also (01:16) "Even if your ideas were correct, the age of names is not relevant here (or anywhere else)." Thanks. -- Fullstop (talk) 08:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC)Reply
Good sir, I am trying to tell you that these religions were founded in the Persian Empire not in Iran. How can they be Iranian then? Warrior4321talk 16:15, 2 July 2009 (UTC)Reply
"Empire" == government. While culture (religion, language, etc) == people.
The two are not synonymous. -- Fullstop (talk) 21:12, 2 July 2009 (UTC)Reply


Better/More Descriptive and Engaging Lead

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Can we include this in the lead?

The word "Aryan" designates Indian and Iranian culture and "most justly" the latter where the term still lives on and is interchangeable with the linguistic, national, and religious identifier Iranian.[1] The Aryans are recalled as the Airya in the ancient Iranian scriptures known as the Avesta, the oldest portions of which were composed by the ancient Aryan[2] “poet-praiser”[3] historians identify as ‘’Zarathushtra’’ (Gk. Zoroaster Ger. Zarathustra)[4][5], and who were closely tied to speakers and clans or nations of Indo-Europe’s ancestral past including the Scythians, Sarmatians, and Cimmerians also included within the category of “Aryan.”[6] Similarly the Aryans are recalled as the Arya in the ancient Indic scriptures known as the Vedas.[7] The Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit languages of these respective Aryan speakers are almost identical and henceforth must trace back to a period shortly after the linguistic divergence of their hypothetical common ancestor known as Proto-Indo-Iranian. [8] Scholars have dated these languages to a period ranging from 6000 BCE to no later than 1000 BCE.[9][10]The homeland of the Aryans is recalled in the Avesta as Airyana Vaejah[11] and roughly corresponds to the modern day territories of Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Georgia, Iran, Azerbaijan, Kurdistan, and Pakistan.[12] Alternatively there is no record of an Aryan homeland in the Vedas although the place-name Arya-Varta which identifies the "abode of the Aryans" does appear in post-Vedic texts such as the Manusmirti, and indicates "the tract between the Himalaya and the Vindhya ranges, from the Eastern Sea to the Western Sea."[13] The Aryan religion of the Avesta, also known as the "Magical or Ethical Religion,"[14][15] demonstrates elements of monotheism sometimes referred to as "monotheistic dualism" which contributed to the core of the Abrahamic belief system.[16][17]Similarly there are traces of monotheism in the Vedas, but evidence of polytheism appears already in the most ancient of the Vedic compositions, the Rig Veda. [18][18]The religion of the Vedic Aryans, also known as ancient Hinduism, in its refined form, developed into Buddhist philosophy. [19] In addition to having made contributions to the Abrahamic faiths, the religion of the Avestic Aryans also made significant contributions to several other movements throughout the course of history including Greek philosophy [20] the Mithraic Mysteries of the pre-Christian Roman Empire [21] both Shiaism[22] and Sufism[23] , the Renaissance [24][25] Europe's Volk movement, and Freemasonry (eg. the Sarastro Lodge named after Zarathushtra himself).[26] In specific the Aryan religion of the Avestan people has also had a significant influence on a handful of individuals in modern day times including Friedrich Nietzsche (eg. Thus Spoke Zarathustra), Richard Strauss (eg. Also Spoke Zarathustra), Mozart (eg. The Magic Flute)[27], Thomas Edison (inventor of the Mazda Bulb)[28], President Truman (quoted for his reference to the Persian Emperor of Aryan lineage: “I am Cyrus”)Cite error: The <ref> tag has too many names (see the help page)., Stanley Kubrick (having incorporated Strauss’s Also Spoke Zarathustra into the beginning score of his 2001: A Space Odyssey). In their orthodox forms the religion of the Avestic and Vedic Aryans live on, respectively, with the Zartushtis or Parsis of Irano-Afghanistan and India, and the Hindus of South Asia, many of whom have also taken up residence in Europe and the United States.

Yazdânism and Yarsanism

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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Firstlly, Yazdânism is a pseudohistoric[29] religion. (That´s also on the main article about Yazdânism)

Secondly, according this sources (which are used in the article „Tawûsî Melek“ in the part about Yarsanism) is yarsanism dating back to pre-Islam,[30][31] Of course not in the form it is now, so it did not yet include Sultan Sahak or the Prophet Muhammad, because they were not yet born, but it was still Yarsanism just as Judaism in Jeremiah's time was Judaism, even if it did not yet include e.g. Ezekiel, because he was not yet born. In any case, the 16th century did not see the establishment of a religion, but rather a reformation of religion.

Thirdly, I don't know how Iranian historians date historical periods, but so far I have always come across that the Middle Ages ended in the late 15th century and the 16th is already the modern era, so if we want to stick with the claim that Yarsanism arose in the 16th century, then we should move it from the medieval period to the modern era. --Dr. Ivan Kučera (talk) 15:18, 30 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

References

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Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
  1. ^ J.P. Mallory | 1989 | p=125-126 "As an ethnic designation, the word is most properly limited to the Indo-Iranians, and most justly to the latter where it still gives its name to the country Iran (from the Avestan genitive plural airyanam through later Iranian eran to iran)."
  2. ^ Albert De Jong |1997 |p= 320 “The only reliable tradition that can be found is the passage, possibly from Hecataeus of Abdera, in Diodorus Siculus 1.94.2, which connects Zathraustes with the Ariani. This mirrors the Avestan (and later Zoroastrian) idea of Zarathustra living in Airyana Vaejah and proclaiming his message to “the Aryans.”
  3. ^ M.L. West | 2007 | p=29 "The hymns of the Rigveda were the work of priest-poets called Rishis: Zarathushtra uses the corresponding Avestan word ereshi- of himself (Y.31.5).”
  4. ^ Benjamin W. Fortson | 2010 | p= 264 "12.59. The Homeric poems in their present form represent the accumulated labor of many generations of bards from different parts of eastern Greece. The result was a mixture of forms from different parts of eastern Greece. The result was a mixture of forms from different dialects and from different chronological stages. Each poet drew on a repertory of inherited and memorized formulaic poetic language, but in composing the epics in performance would inject newer material of his own devising. Bards constantly adapted the poetic language, and to make the verses scan they would sometimes create forms that from a historical point of view are wrong.”
  5. ^ Benjamin W. Fortson | 2010 | p=229 "The linguistically oldest Avestan, called Old or Gathic Avestan, is confined mostly to the core of the Yasna, namely Yasna 28-34, 43-51, and 53. These sections constitute the five Gathas traditionally ascribed to Zarathushtra himself.”
  6. ^ J.P. Mallory | 1989 | p=48 “Reading from west to east we an include as Iranian speakers the major Iron Age nomads of the Pontic-Caspian steppe such as the Kimmerians(?), Scythians, Sarmatians and Alans. The incredible mobility of these horse-mounted nomads becomes all the more impressive when we recall their westward expansions thorugh Europe.”
  7. ^ R. Schmitt) | 1987 | http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/aryans "The name “Aryan” (OInd. āˊrya-, Ir. *arya- [with short a-], in Old Pers. ariya-, Av. airiia-, etc.) is the self designation of the peoples of Ancient India and Ancient Iran who spoke Aryan languages [...]"
  8. ^ J.P. Mallory | 1989 | p=36 "[...] Indic and Iranian show such remarkable similarities with one another that we can confidently posit a period of Indo-Iranian unity between the earlier Proto-Indo-European language and the subsequent appearance of the individual Indic (or Indo-Aryan) and Iranian languages."
  9. ^ Mary Settegast | 2005 |>
  10. ^ J.P. Mallory | 1989 | p=52 "[...]from the archaeological perspective we can at least credit the earliest part of the Avesta to the Late Bronze Age-Early Iron Age, about 1000 BC"
  11. ^ Jenny Rose|2011 "Videvadad refers to Airyana Vaejah as an original homeland of the Iranians."
  12. ^ Michael Witzel | 1998 | http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/AryanHome.pdf “In short, what we get in the Vīdẽvdåδ list, is a view of the inhabitable world seen from (the center of) Greater Afghanistan […]”
  13. ^ p=2 "the tract between the Himalaya and the [[Vindhya Range|Vindhya range]s, from the Eastern Sea to the Western Sea."
  14. ^ Dhunjeebhoy Jamsetjee Medhora | 1886 | p=66 "Agathius says that he [Zarathushtra] changed their old form of rites, and introduced many new opinions and was the author and introducer of Magical religion among the Persians
  15. ^ Miles Menander Dawson | 1931 | p=6 "[...] his [Zarathushtra's] mission was primarily and essentially ethical, to cause men to elect, with intelligence and good motive, to do the right thing."
  16. ^ James W. Boyd and Donald A. Crosby| http://www.jstor.org/stable/1462275?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents"
  17. ^ Bryan Rennie | 2007| http://www.westminster.edu/staff/brennie/RennieCSSR36.1.pdf
  18. ^ a b Wash Edward Hale | 1999| p=40 “’You, O Varuna, are king of all, both who are gods and who are mortals, O asura.’” Cite error: The named reference "”Asura”" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
  19. ^ David Llewelyn Snellgrove | http://www.britannica.com/topic/Buddhism” | 2015 “Northeastern India, which was less influenced by the Aryans who had developed the main tenets and practices of the Vedic Hindu faith, became the breeding ground of many new sects [including Buddhism].”
  20. ^ Jenny Rose | 2011 | https://books.google.com/books?id=CsyWAwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Zoroastrianism&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwil4Pzrhp_JAhXCbiYKHcewD0sQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=Renaissance%20&f=false "Classical texts, such as Pliny’s ‘’Natural History’’, Porphyry’s ‘’Life of Pythagoras’’, Clement of Alexandria’s ‘’Stromata’’ and Apuleius’ ‘’Florida’’, which speak of Zoroaster as the instructor of the Greeks in philosophy, astrology, alchemy, theurgy and magic […]”
  21. ^ Franz Cumont |1903 |p=30 “The basal layer of this religion [Mithraism], its lower and primordial stratum, is the faith of ancient Iran, from which it took its origin”
  22. ^ Janey Levy | 2010 | p=9 “Experts believe these [Zoroastrian] teachings later influenced Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.”
  23. ^ A.H. Zarrinkoob | 1970 |p=139 "Thus, while in the late Sasanian period period were able to retain some of their former ethical tenets in the Sufi philosophy.”
  24. ^ Jenny Rose | 2011 | https://books.google.com/books?id=CsyWAwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Zoroastrianism&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwil4Pzrhp_JAhXCbiYKHcewD0sQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=Renaissance%20&f=false “During the Renaissance, these texts [Greco-Roman Classics on Zoroaster], studied in the original, became the sources of reference regarding the ancient world. Certain Christian scholars were greatly influenced by the Greek perception of Zoroaster as a figure of authority and wisdom, preceding the great philosopher, such as Pythagoras and Plato.”
  25. ^ Steven E. Aschheim | 1994 | p=152 ”Here both Nietzschean ideas and Nietzsche as a heroic personality served to fuse the mythos with the aspirations of the Volk"
  26. ^ http://sarastro-lodge.com/contact/
  27. ^ Paul Kriwaczek | 2007| p=38 "in The Magic Flute, Mozart disguised Zoroaster as the benevolent Sorastro[...]"
  28. ^ Douglas Roper Krotz | 2011 | p=217 "[...] the most successful research and development company that the world had known up through 1910 was named the Mazda Development and Service Company by founder and major stockholder, Thomas Edison! This company assisted in, and shared, Edison's patent rights on not only electric lights, but, more importantly, the first viable system for centrally generating and distributing electricity, light, heat and power [...]"
  29. ^ Foltz, Richard (2017). "The "Original" Kurdish Religion? Kurdish Nationalism and the False Conflation of the Yezidi and Zoroastrian Traditions". Journal of Persianate Studies. 10 (1): 91 (note 3). doi:10.1163/18747167-12341309. The alleged pan-Kurdish proto-religion called "Yazdanism" is a fabrication of contemporary Kurdish scholar Mehrdad Izady
  30. ^ Bozarslan, Hamit; Gunes, Cengiz; Yadirgi, Veli (2021-04-22). The Cambridge History of the Kurds. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-108-58301-5.
  31. ^ Omarkhali, Khanna (January 2009). "The status and role of the Yezidi legends and myths. To the question of comparative analysis of Yezidism, Yārisān (Ahl-e Haqq) and Zoroastrianism: a common substratum?". {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
  • Mallory, J.P. (1989), "In Search of the Indo-Europeans"
  • Albert, De Jong (1997), "Traditions of the Magi"
  • Fortson, Benjamin (2010), "Indo-European Language and Culture"
  • Fortson, Benjamin (2010), "Indo-European Language and Culture"
  • Mallory, J.P. (1989), "In Search of the Indo-Europeans"
  • Schmitt, R. (1987), "Encyclopaedia Iranica"
  • Mallory, J.P. (1989), "In Search of the Indo-Europeans"
  • Settegast, Mary (2005), "When Zarathustra Spoke"
  • Mallory, J.P. (1989), "In Search of the Indo-Europeans"
  • Rose, Jenny (2011), "Zoroastrianism: an Introduction"
  • Witzel, Michael (1998), "The Home of the Aryans"
  • "Sacred Books of the East vol. 14"
  • Jamsetjee, Dhunjeebhoy (1886), "The Zoroastrian and Some Other Ancient System" {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
  • Dawson, Miles (1931), "The Ethical Religion of Zoroaster"
  • James, Boyd, "Is Zoroastrianism Dualistic or Monotheistic?"
  • Rennie, Brian (2007), "Zoroastrianism: the Iranian Roots of Christianity"
  • Hale, Wash (1999), "Asura"
  • Hale, Wash (1999), "Asura"
  • Snellgrove, Llewelyn (2015), "Encyclopedia Britanica"
  • Rose, Jenny (2011), "Zoroastrianism: an Introduction"
  • Janey, Levy (1903), "The Mysteries of Mithras"
  • Hale, Wash (2010), "Iran and the Shia"
  • Zarrinkoob, A.H. (1970), "Persian Sufism in its Historical Perspective
  • Rose, Jenny (2011), "Zoroastrianism: an Introduction"
  • Ascheim, Steven (1994), "The Nietzsche Legacy in Germany: 1890 - 1990"
  • "http://sarastro-lodge.com/contact/" {{citation}}: External link in |title= (help)
  • Kriwczek, Paul (2007), "In Search of Zarathushtra"
  • Krotz, Douglas (2011), "The Man who Sent the Magi"
  • "http://kavehfarrokh.com/cyrus-the-great/president-harry-s-truman-i-am-cyrus/ ", 2010 {{citation}}: |first= missing |last= (help); External link in |title= (help)Mojobadshah (talk) 15:13, 21 November 2015 (UTC)Reply
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