Talk:Irish Civil War

Last line on McDowell

I really think that last line on McDowell should be removed as: a) The only groups nowadays that would follow Irish Republican Legitimatism to that extent would be Republican Sinn Fein and the CIRA. b) In fairness McDowell was a vicious critic of SF and other Republican groups and really that comment could be considered cheap political point scoring, especially given the timing (run up to the 04 locals) Exiledone (talk) 20:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but has anyone ever heard of expensive political point scoring? Didn't think so.78.19.192.27 (talk) 14:14, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

HarveyCarter socks

Please keep an eye out for banned editor User:HarveyCarter who frequently edits from IP addresses starting with 92.7.

Thanks. Binksternet (talk) 19:24, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Certainly they have recently been active elsewhere. Not entirely sure about here, but in any case, edit-warring is not acceptable. RashersTierney (talk) 21:07, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Whether HarveyCarter or not, User talk:92.7.9.108 is evidently edit-warring again and in breach of their block with IP 92.7.2.17. Have reported to blocking admin. RashersTierney (talk) 17:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Queries on use of Terminology

I enjoyed this article and in general, I really appreciate the effort to be even handed on what is a difficult topic. However, I have a few concerns and these are simply suggestions that I feel might help.

- The preamble contains two references in the space of three paragraphs to British support for the Free State ie '...British-backed Irish Nationalists' and '...Free State forces, which were heavily armed with weapons provided by the British Government..'. Regardless of intent, that clearly reinforces a well known SF position around the legitimacy of the Free State entity;

- Similarly, the statement re the Treaty Ports in the 'The Treaty and It's Consequences' section uses the word 'occupied' as in '...so-called strategic Treaty Ports...which were to remain occupied by the Royal Navy.' De Valera used the word 'occupation' in his campaign during the Economic War but the Treaty refers to 'made available for use.'

This isn't simple nitpicking - individually, each of us could make a case for the words we want to use but looking at the trend, there are three statements before we've even got off the first page which taken together add up to a consistent perspective which is primarily that adopted by De Valera.

(Robinvp11 (talk) 13:58, 6 November 2015 (UTC))

I agree, it was a power struggle, and both sides had help and arms from abroad. Casualties were thankfully small compared to most civil wars, because most people were pro-Treaty, whether from conviction or because it was the only game in town. Editors have to adopt a bloodless approach.78.19.192.27 (talk) 14:11, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Removal of orphanage burning

This text has been removed. Why? It happened. It is sourced imo.

In July 1922, a Protestant orphanage near Clifden, County Galway, housing 58 children was burnt by the anti-treaty side. The children were subsequently transferred to England on board a British destroyer as the Provisional government was unable to rescue them. The proselytising aspect of the Society for Irish Church Missions, which ran the institutions, had long been a source of local resentment, but it had apparently ceased proselytising in the area before 1921.

The sources referenced are the Irish Times, Hansard (UK parliament for the ship), Galway Advertiser, Irish Church Missions. There are others, e.g. Western Daily Press of 5 July 1922; and the Western Morning News of the same date. Is there any reason not to restore it? Lugnad (talk) 02:57, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

I've just reinstated a line on it.78.19.192.27 (talk) 14:13, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

First line of "Attacks on former Loyalists" section

This is my first time commenting on a wiki page, so forgive me if I do it wrong.

On reading this article, it strikes me that the first sentence of the above section seems biased: "“Although the cause of the Civil War was the Treaty, as the war developed the Republicans sought to identify their actions with the traditional Republican cause of the "men of no property" and the result was that large Anglo-Irish landowners and some less well-off former Protestant Loyalists were attacked.”

This statement gives the impression that the cause of the "men of no property" was an afterthought for the Republicans. Though the statement is cited, it needs to be balanced by another opinion, as there are some who believe that class conflict was a major part of the war: ie. Dr. Conor Kostick's lecture, "Was the Civil War a Class War?" and the makers of the 2006 movie "The Wind that Shakes the Barley."

In fact, it surprises me that this aspect of the conflict is not mentioned anywhere else in the article, especially because there was a rising socialist movement in Ireland before the war. Perhaps this is a controversial topic. I can't help but wonder if this omission is due to the bias against socialism which is prevalent in Western politics now. At any rate, whether we agree with Kostick's claim or not, this argument for a class conflict undertone to the war should at least be mentioned in the article.

Thank you, Tmloughr (talk) 16:44, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

It's true that the anti-Treaty men were mostly out of work after the War of Independence, and were still armed and had nothing much to lose. Does that make them socialists or opportunists who failed?78.19.192.27 (talk) 14:05, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

External links modified

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Royal Navy

What about the role the Royal Navy played in transporting the Free State forces? (81.159.7.57 (talk) 11:24, 6 August 2017 (UTC))

It was previously mentioned in the lede of this article, but was removed because it was unsourced. Are you able to suggest a source? MPS1992 (talk) 12:49, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

It once stated The Civil War was won by the Free State forces, which were heavily armed with weapons provided by the British Government, and transported by the Royal Navy. In my opinion, that refers to the transport of the arms. And, again in my opinion, just acting as transporter makes the remark irrelevant. The Banner talk 13:36, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

A Royal Navy destroyer also saved the orphans at an orphanage in County Galway that was burned down in 1922. Does saving lives count?78.16.25.166 (talk) 12:31, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

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I would like to suggest that the end date for the civil war be moved to 2000, because there was further fighting between IRA and Loyalist groups until about then, as they were unable to secure a treaty that held up until about then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:344B:D130:C06D:E655:3D4:D299 (talk) 21:21, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

".. aboard an impromptu gunboat" pic in lede

Looks more like soldiers doing target practice off the side of the boat. Otherise why would you aim at the open sea?78.17.26.166 (talk) 06:45, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

• It does look like they are doing target practice. Gunboats tote much bigger guns than light machineguns. But "gunboat" sounds much more dramatic and will sell more books, so let's stick with gunboat.78.18.201.2 (talk) 14:03, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
  • There is no need to make the article spicy. So I changed the description into "a troop transport", conform this discussion. The Banner talk 14:37, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

"gaols" to "jails"?

In the section Aftermath of the ceasefire, is there any reason not to change "gaols" to "jails"? John Link (talk) 04:03, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Because as far as I know in Ireland, the country this article is about, the word is spelled "gaol." --Jfruh (talk) 16:45, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Any aerial attacks in the Civil War?

This article says the British supplied the Free State with aircraft, and it also says the Free State had 10 aircraft. What sort of aircraft were these, where were they kept and when and where were they used, if at all? Grma/Tks. Dáibhí Ó Bruadair (talk) 19:45, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Not sure of the type, I'll have to look that up. But they were initially stationed at Baldonnell aerodrome in west Dublin. Though some, I think were later stationed at other garrisons around the country. Again, I'll have to look up the specifics. They were used predominantly in a reconnaissance role, but there were some air to ground attacks by planes as far as I know. I'll see if I can find a reference on that. Jdorney (talk) 23:02, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Any tanks used in the Civil War?

While there are photos of army tanks in the War of Independence - https://www.thesun.ie/news/1832065/never-before-seen-photos-from-the-irish-war-of-independence-during-the-early-1920s/ and here in Capel Street: https://i.redd.it/cy185ynsype61.jpg - were there any tanks used in the Civil War? If so, how many, what kind were they, and where were they used? Grma/Tks. Dáibhí Ó Bruadair (talk) 19:45, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

No. The British supplied the pro-Treaty forces with armoured cars, including Rolls Royce and Lancia models, but not tanks. Some armoured cars also fell into anti-Treaty hands and they also initially possessed some improvised ones. But again, no tanks I'm afraid. Jdorney (talk) 23:05, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Leaders

What would be the best way to mention leaders in the Info box? Normally per info-box rules it lists leaders with head of states on top then military leaders. I do not know how it should be because leaders like Michael Collins served as the Irish government leader and miltary leader. LuxembourgLover (talk) 14:02, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Also I do not understand Irish history, I just think the info should be better organize. LuxembourgLover (talk) 14:03, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Better leave it the way it is. Military leaders were far more influential than the political leaders in this conflict. The Banner talk 01:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)