Talk:Irish Famine (1740–1741)

Ireland lost Over 2,000,000 of its population.

bliain an áir

I move to change this from "Irish Famine (1740-1741)" to the name by which it is commonly known, Blianan a air. Thoughts? Fergananim (talk) 14:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

- Depends on wikipedia's naming conventions. I'm not sure what you mean by "commonly known", I'd guess you mean in Ireland? Is there a general naming preference to name Irish events in Irish? I'd say to help wider understanding (certainly in the English language version of wikipedia) the title should include the English language title as well as the Gaelic term. I notice the Great_Famine_(Ireland) article is titled in English and subtitled in the Irish. Including the dates would also be worthwhile. My vote: keep it in English but subtitle in Gaelic, like the Great_Famine_(Ireland) article. --mgaved (talk) 21:17, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

"English people"

Paragraph 2 in Causes has an odd turn of phrase: "Though no barometric or temperature readings for Ireland (population in 1740 of 2.4 million people) survive from the Great Frost, English people were using the mercury thermometer invented 25 years earlier by the German pioneer Fahrenheit. Indoor values during January 1740 were as low as 10 °F (−12 °C)" .

I *think* the author is trying to say that no barometric/temperature reading exist from the time measuring temperatures in Ireland, but ones from England do, and these were reading as low as 10 °F (−12 °C) at the time. Do other people think this is what might be said? Needs rewriting anyway, also needs a reference. Plus I am not sure how meteorologically relevant it is to compare temperatures in England (and which part, England has a wide climatic range) to those in Ireland.

--mgaved (talk) 21:05, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

It is an odd turn of phrase. I have a copy of Dickson's book here somewhere and will see if he has anything to say on the matter. May be tomorrow before I get back on this. RashersTierney (talk) 21:19, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

p11 from above; "Scientific enthusiasts in Dublin and Cork had begun to measure weather, specifically rainfall and temperature, but they could offer little insight into why..." and p12 ; "No barometric or temperature readings for Ireland made during the Great Frost survive" and "...but even in England there were only a few men who by 1739 were in the habit of regularly taking temperature readings." I think the author is pretty clear, and that your interpretation is correct, just that it hasn't been very well put in the article. I'll edit the article with a view to clarifying when I have a bit more time. RashersTierney (talk) 00:14, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

cheers RashersTierney. That would be great, nice referencing as well, will strenghten the article. --mgaved (talk) 14:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Needs more sources and data

This seems to rely on mostly one book - it still needs cites that give page numbers for each quotation. In addition, more numbers should be provided. If Ireland lost 38% of its population, what was its starting population? There must be some estimates, even journal articles. There is mention that the Great Frost affected all of Europe - were deaths comparable in other countries (even allowing for war and poor records, there should be some discussion of it.) There is mention made in the Lead of epidemics, but little reference to disease fatalities in the body of the article. Even if the author was breaking new ground with this study, academic reviews of it might add info and should be consulted as sources; might also reveal other references.Parkwells (talk) 19:02, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I was thinking about this too, particularly as the mortality rate calculation is based on that one source (Dickson). Nearly all the other references are poor quality or are filling up a bit of space with discussion of 1845. There does seem to be a bit more information available particularly in the context of more general famine conditions in the region.

Dobson, Contours of death and disease in Early Modern England, states there were severe food shortages in England leading to riots in the winter of 1740 as part of "famine conditions" prevalent across much of Europe, with increased deaths recorded in England in 1739/1740, reaching the south-east by 1741. She adds that Ireland experienced a "demographic crisis" in the same period but identifies the direct cause as epidemics of typhus and dysentery, though these themselves resulted from a reduction in the food supply, and were exacerbated by a potato crop failure in 1740.

Scotland also suffered famine conditions in 1740 exacerbated by an epidemic of typhus and accompanied as elsewhere by food riots. (Smout, Famine and Famine-Relief in Scotland). There were a series of poor harvests in following years, which may have had some bearing on political events here in 1745.

Creighton (A history of epidemics in Britain) talks of a "relapsing fever" and dysentery spreading among the Dublin poor in 1738 and 1739, which was then worsened and spread by the cold weather and starvation conditions of 1740. Cullen (in The Victorian Countryside) suggests that conditions were very different in 1740 to those in the Great Famine, as unlike in 1845 it hit the better-off farming class of the grain producing areas in the East equally hard.

In short there's broad evidence for severe weather leading to famine conditions across Britain and Ireland with the most obvious effect being typhus epidemics in all areas, although it seems to have been particularly severe in Ireland - possibly as typhus was already present in 1738. Svejk74 (talk) 12:20, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

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Protestants and alms giving.

Might I respectfully suggest that this section does not convey the comprehensive picture such a broad and contentious heading demands. I respectfully suggest that it should either be removed, renamed, fleshed out or otherwise amended. What is the uninitiated reader to make of it? Kind Regards, M.H. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.121.199.207 (talk) 10:21, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Corn

American readers may mistake the corn referred to here as maize, so the article should be specific about which kind of corn is meant, or use the generic "grain" to refer to multiple varieties of corn. The 1740 Corn Census refers to Wheat, Rye, Meslin, Oats, Meal and Barly. Greenman (talk) 15:48, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Impact comparison to Irish Potato Famine

Comparing the two Irish famines, this article says:

> is estimated to have killed between 13% and 20% of the 1740 population of 2.4 million people, which was a proportionately greater loss than during the Great Famine of 1845–1852

While the Irish Potato Famine says:

> causing the country's population to fall by 20–25%

I fail to see how 13-20% is greater than 20-25%. There should be some clarification here on what is meant by "proportionately greater" 93.66.164.57 (talk) 17:53, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

That includes refugees and emigration, however the given figure of 1 million deaths for the 1840s famine is still ~12% and not far off. 90.242.186.141 (talk) 08:29, 27 January 2024 (UTC)