Talk:Irish galley

"Galleys"?

I've been working on improving the article galley for a while, and I came across this while checking related articles on Wikipedia. I already know that there's some difference between the use of "galley" as a term to describe oared vessel and what's actually considered to be a "true" galley.

This clearly does not seem to be a galley, but that hasn't always stopped historians from using the term. So is the term "Irish galley" something that is actually in widespread use? Is it referring to a specific type of vessel? Were they called "galleys" by their contemporaries? How do they differ from birlinns?

Peter ^Isotalo 14:07, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The usual term for this vessel in English seems to be "galley," in the sense that we are dealing with an oared vessel. The Irish called it a "ship" (long), a term I would prefer, but in English it could be ambiguous, since Irish merchants also used ships of a more conventional type. To me, a ship would here be a vessel propelled primarily by sail, though with oars as a possible adjunct: this would include a number of so-called "galleys" - Irish, Scottish and Viking. A true galley would be one of the Mediterranean type, propelled primarily by oar and with sails as an adjunct. From the evidence available, there was little difference between the birlinn and the Irish "galley": they were both products of a Norse-influenced shipbuilding tradition and had a maritime and cultural area in common. I intend to update both the relevant articles, particularly Birlinn.

Colin Ryan (talk) 21:03, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, what sources actually use the term "Irish galley" and what do they claim that it means? What terms do they actually use? How is it different from "birlinn"? Because a lot of refs used here (at least on line or on Google Books) don't even seem to contain the word "galley". That seems the most important issue here. If you compare with historians who actually write about galleys and oared vessels (see list of refs in galley), little Irish is ever included. English "balingers", Viking longships and the likes are mentioned, but they're dealt with as separate craft, if similar ones. So we're left with the problem of defining what is actually meant here and who uses the term "Irish galley". Saying that anything with sails that can also be rowed is a galley obviously doesn't work.

Peter ^Isotalo

Part of the problem is (as you imply) that the Irish vessel in question is seldom mentioned or treated separately. Rixson (The West Highland Galley) refers, if I remember rightly, to the Irish galley. This makes sense in view of the title of his book, but he is clearly dealing with vessels of the longship type. The term "galley" has longstanding acceptance in Scotland, and the Elizabethans referred both to Irish "galleys" and "ships" with regard to the same type of vessel (see notes 11 and 12 in the article). A 1615 report to the Scottish Privy Council makes a distinction between birlinns and galleys, but only in terms of size.

My definition of a true galley would still be a vessel propelled by numerous oars, with sail as a supplement. This would exclude Viking longships and their Gaelic relatives - vessels propelled mostly by sail.

Colin Ryan (talk) 08:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me that this article just replicates material on Birlinn. Why not just combine them?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:00, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

The definition of a galley is more precise than "more oars than sail" or vice versa. In the modern literature, galleys are defined as the elongated ship type which relies more on oars than sails used in the Mediterranean since antiquity. Or those sips that are based on the Mediterranean design but used elsewhere (mostly just the Atlantic and Baltic, really). The rest are treated separately, but they are very frequently mentioned together with galleys. That's why I know of birlinns and balingers, btw.

The problem arises with the issue of contemporary terminology. A lot of vessels that modern historians don't define as galley were called galleys. This was mostly because a) standardized nomenclature was not common in pre-modern times and b) people didn't always differentiate function from design. A good example would be HMS Charles Galley (1676), which clearly isn't a galley, but which bore the name because it had oarports instead of gunports on its lower gundeck. To anyone today, no one would dispute that it's anything but a specialized frigate.

My solution to this so far has been to try to mention related vessels in galley, but to point out occasional similarities rather than actually equate other vessels with galleys. Because that's what I feel best reflects the treatment in the sources I use. I've also worked on a Definition and terminology-section where craft like this could be mentioned.

Colin, you mentioned that your sources don't seem to actually use "Irish galley" consistently, if at all. If that's the case, then I suspect that the current title is really a good description. I would love to read Rixson, but it's not available in any Swedish library. Do you think you could summarize what kind of terms Rixson and the other sources use to describe these vessels? By this I mean what they're called by the authors, not necessarily what they were called by their contemporaries. Perhaps the article title could be more descriptive and general, like Irish and Scottish oared vessels. Or something like that.

Peter ^Isotalo 16:34, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

You're right, of course, in pointing out the confusion in nomenclature. That aside, it might well be best to combine the two articles, and perhaps "galley" should be retained in the title, since (rightly or wrongly) it has some historical acceptance in this context: Irish and Scottish galleys, perhaps. I shall look again at the sources - it's a pity there is no Irish equivalent of Rixson.

Colin Ryan (talk) 03:25, 7 January 2012 (UTC)