Talk:Irish hunger strike

Requested move 22 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus there is no primary topic for "Irish hunger strike". The events in 1920 and 1923 in particular have a long-term significance similar to that of the events in 1981. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 09:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

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Irish hunger strike → Irish hunger strike (disambiguation) – "1981 Irish hunger strike" is a clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC on the basis of page views, so WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT applies. "Irish hunger strike" should redirect to "1981 Irish hunger strike", and the disambiguation page should be at "Irish hunger strike (disambiguation)" Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 16:14, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Page views analysis here. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 16:15, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose. WP:RECENTISM, hunger strikes from 1920 and 1923 (more then a hundred years ago) does not gain the same internet coverage as the most recent one. The Banner talk 16:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per the above. The strikes of the 1920s were as important to the time as that of the 1980s was to the politics of its time. RECENTISM of the 1980s being in many people’s lifetime means there will be more online coverage of the events. Keep the format of the titles consistent with the year. - SchroCat (talk) 11:01, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  The strikes of the 1920s were no doubt important to the people of the time. More relevant in determining a primary topic per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT is whether a topic is "highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." On the basis of page views, "1981 Irish hunger strike" is overwhelmingly the most likely destination.

  Please note that this move request relates only to the correct location for the new disambiguation page: "Irish hunger strike" or "Irish hunger strike (disambiguation)". "Irish hunger strike" was a stable redirect to the primary topic from 2007 until yesterday (see history). I'm not proposing a move of any other page.

  Also, note that WP:RECENTISM mentions a ten-year test or a twenty-year test. The most recent of these hunger strikes took place more than 40 years ago. Is WP:RECENTISM really relevant here? Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 11:43, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  Do not forget to mention that you moved the IMO correct disambiguation page to something more to your liking but based on nothing. But seeing that Terence MacSwiney is still a relevant as symbol, there is no need to dismiss that hunger strike as less relevant. The Banner talk 12:37, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  No, I moved the page on the basis of WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT, as I made clear in my edit summary: (Jean-de-Nivelle moved page Irish hunger strike to Irish hunger strike (disambiguation): "1981 Irish hunger strike" is a clear primary topic per WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT).

  I'm not disputing that MacSwiney is an important figure, or that the 1920s hunger strikes were interesting and important events. My only claim is that a modern reader is overwhelmingly likely to be looking for the page "1981 Irish hunger strike", so "Irish hunger strike" should redirect there as the primary topic, with the disambiguation page at "Irish hunger strike (disambiguation)", per WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 13:09, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, you make clear that is a case of WP:RECENTISM by ignoring the impact of the other hunger strikes. The Banner talk 13:19, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  This isn't about their impact. It's about which topic is "highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term", per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 13:35, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, I leave it to others to weigh in. The Banner talk 13:42, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

• A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term. The question is whether the 1981 hunger strike has greater enduring notability and educational value than the hunger strikes of the 1920s. If it does not, then that points to a need for disambiguation. I'm not familiar enough with these topics to make that call. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:09, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  To give you an idea: https://www.rte.ie/search/query/cork%20hunger%20strike/ The Banner talk 08:36, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

  OK, my thoughts after my self-taught "quickie crash course" on the topic. There is a primary topic for Cork hunger strike; the one in 1920 seems to be the first, at least of the modern era. The 1920–1923 hunger strikes were closely aligned with the 1922–1923 Irish Civil War, which obviously has long-term significance. The 1920–1923 hunger strikes happened in prisons located in all the major cities on the island – Dublin, Cork, and a prison ship in Belfast. These strikes are mentioned as background to the 1981 Irish hunger strike. A broad-concept article Irish hunger strikes covering them all would be ideal, but lacking that we have to settle for a disambiguation.

  Prison Maze hunger strike, Northern Irish hunger strike, and Northern Ireland hunger strike would be, if someone created them, primary redirects to 1981 Irish hunger strike that didn't need to specify the specific year to disambiguate. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

• Remarks on recentism and enduring notability:

I wonder if there's a danger of confusing enduring notability with a kind of centenial recentism. I note that the majority of articles on the RTE website concerning the 1920 and 1923 hunger strikes were written in the context of their recent centenaries. Writing in the Irish Times in 2023, Frank McNally called the 1923 hunger strike, "the forgotten mass hunger strike of 1923", and "among the least well remembered of its kind". Writing about the 1920 hunger strikes, The Irish Examiner says: "The forgotten story of Cork's hunger strikers is to be told for the first time." That doesn't speak of enduring notability.

The pages "1920 Cork hunger strike" and "1923 Irish hunger strikes" were both created in 2021 and have 37 and 42 incoming links respectively, while "1981 Irish hunger strike" was created in 2004 and has 1,162. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 08:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

A quote from that article: "Free State authorities, knowing well the power of hunger strikes in republican history, kept publicity for the Anti-Treaty protest to a minimum." That raises curiosity in my mind to know more about the Irish hunger strikes that happened before 1920. I hope someone researches this and writes the article.

There's a tendency for inconvenient history to be forgotten. Great effort is made to keep some history, such as the Holocaust, in the public's memory, with the goal of ensuring that type of thing doesn't happen again.

On the other hand, American right-wing Nazi sympathizers of the 1930s and 1940s were largely forgotten until recently, when prompted by actions of the modern American right, reporters such as Rachel Maddow have done podcasts and written books to educate younger Americans about this nearly-forgotten history. Wikipedia can and should perform a great public service here, in fulfilling the educational goals of an encyclopedia. – wbm1058 (talk) 12:56, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree very much with that. But the purpose of a disambiguation page is to help the reader find the information they're looking for. On the basis of page views, eleven out of every twelve readers are actually looking for "1981 Irish hunger strike". If that balance were to shift significantly, so would my opinion on this question. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 13:12, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

And again you come with an argument to the tune of "old is less notable". The Banner talk 14:10, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

We can also help readers find things that they didn't even know they were looking for. ;) wbm1058 (talk) 14:53, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I agree. But "Did you know ..." and "From today's featured article" are ideal for that sort of thing, and a hatnote at "1981 Irish hunger strike" would bring traffic to the disambiguation page. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 15:09, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I just found the Irish hunger strikes content that I was looking for. It's in the main, broad-concept hunger strike article. That article focuses on only a few countries, with one prominent country of interest being Ireland. The main reason we don't have a specific article for Ireland is that, per WP:Summary style, there simply isn't so much content on the topic to require splitting out Ireland to a separate article, yet.

Fasting was used as a method of protesting injustice in pre-Christian Ireland, where it was known as Troscadh or Cealachan. Detailed in the contemporary civic codes, it had specific rules by which it could be used, and the fast was often carried out on the doorstep of the home of the offender. Scholars speculate that this was due to the high importance the culture placed on hospitality. Allowing a person to die at one's doorstep, for a wrong of which one was accused, was considered a great dishonor. Others say that the practice was to fast for one whole night, as there is no evidence of people fasting to death in pre-Christian Ireland. The fasts were primarily undertaken to recover debts or get justice for a perceived wrong. Legends of Saint Patrick, the patron saint of Ireland, have used the hunger strike as well.

I just created the Irish hunger strikes redirect. If that had been there before I created it, I would have found this content sooner. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Yep, that is the Brehon law. In those times, nothing was more embarrassing than a fasting person on your doorstep because you had wronged him. The Banner talk 20:03, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.