Talk:Irish people/Archive 6

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Black Irish origins

Scientific racism irish

Does this image relate at all to the origins of the term Black Irish? or is this not really related? (I had tried to search for images at the commons related to this term, nothing came up, then i found this.) It might be a good image in a section on irish/english relations.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 03:24, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

That looks like 19th Century English/American-Anglo anti-Irish (as well as Anti-Catholic) propaganda when Irish emigres fled the Great Famine and entered into North America and mainland England. It was also pseudo-science designed to besmirch the Irish immigrants putting them in a different category of "subhuman", as was the general view of people of African descent by American and English society at the time.--71.177.31.147 (talk) 00:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

This image is from Harper's Weekly 1898, a US publication featuring highly racist and imperious cartoons of German-born Thomas Nast, where the Irish, Negro, Jewish and Chinese immigrants, were compared to white people. Using it to illustrate Black Irish in this already biased article would require the addition of this cartoon from the same time and source!

File:WhiteMansGovernment by Nash

Revealing how Irish could become more White

````

Black Irish is only a social term for Irish people who are darker than the average Irish person who is quite pale ( Celtic complexion).According to studies done by the Harvard University in the 30's on the Irish population, less than 3% have black hair anyway. In 1997 the Irish Medical Journal showed that 67% of the Irish have brown hair of various shades, while the rest have various shades of blonde and red hair. Though the pale blond shade is less common." Thus the main hair colors in the Irish population are brown, blonde,and red. Black as a whole is in the minority. The most common eye color in Ireland is blue in over half of the Irish population (ScottishDna Project 2014). Over 80% have blue or green eyes, brown eyes again are in the minority. The Irish Ministry of Health, also acknowledges in 2013 that over 75% of the Irish population to have Celtic complexion.By Celtic complexion, the following characteristics are associated with are light-colored hair, blue, green, hazel eyes, and a pale skin which doesn't tan or tans with difficulty and freckles. Thus a " Black Irish" is an Irish person who doesn't fit in those pigmentation characteristics. Nevertheless the term was rarely used in Ireland, rather by the Irish diaspora, thus could be considered a myth or a mere social term. There is no biological or scientific basis to differentiate a black-haired Irish person from the Irish people, they are genetically closely related.The Iberian connection is totally irrelevant, since most of the Irish, Scottish and Welsh males belong to the R1b-L21/S145 subclades, which is scarce in Iberia and southwest France. Mcdonnolly (talk) 12:41, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect. Most Irish and and British isles settlers are Haplogroup 1 and share stone age ancestry with Iberian and Basque ancestors according to recent DNA research. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1518445113 Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland:and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome. Lara M. Cassidy, Rui Martiniano, Eileen M. Murphy, Matthew D. Teasdale, James Mallory, Barrie Hartwell and Daniel G. Bradley Eimear Ni Neill (talk) 21:34, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

News on genetics

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2013/11/21/the-genographic-project-returns-to-ireland-to-reveal-dna-results/

Pipo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.203.97.65 (talk) 04:40, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I've just linked two recent dna studies. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4 and https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/08/230797.full.pdf. Could someone please expand on what I've written if you have a chance to read these very interesting papers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MairiC (talk • contribs) 16:38, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

I hope it's okay but I just edited the paragraph about the Ballynahatty genome and the Rathlin genomes. Ballynahatty was from the farming population but the Rathlin genomes were early Bronze Age. It wasn't clear in the paragraph saying that the farming community was from the Middle East and Eastern Europe which isn't accurate. I've also added two new genetic studies. One is done by the same team that released the paper on Ballynahatty and Rathlin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MairiC (talk • contribs) 17:03, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Iceland in opening

"the main groups that interacted with the Irish in the Middle Ages include the Picts, Scots, and the Vikings. Due to this contact, Icelanders are noted for having some Irish descent. Approximately forty percent of the settlement population of Iceland were Gaels that originally came from Ireland or what is now Scotland.[8]" - possibly mention that the 40% is mostly inherited from the X chromosome (women). Shappin Trally (talk) 08:46, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Irish Ancestry

Apologies if this has been mentioned a few times before, I checked the archives and couldn't find a post about this. But why does the Irish population number state people who claim ancestry while most other denonyms do not. Granted I have not checked all 200+ countries but all the ones I have checked so far just state a number and don't go mention claims of ancestry. Why is this? (not saying there is anything against it just a bit curious about it) 82.20.70.162 (talk) 17:29, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I guess just because the research in the matter is available. The Banner talk 18:28, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Then putting in a link to that research would be helpful. How was the ancestry tracked and by whom? Eimear Ni Neill (talk) 21:52, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Offensive People Graphic

This article refers to people who are ethnically irish.

There are several people in that face-infographic who are ethnically pure english. Boyle, Stoker and the duke of wellington for instance. Others are either ethnically lowland scots like George Best or anglo-irish like Hyde

Can someone remove them? This is a highly insulting article. The presence of the colonist family of Boyle in particular. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.228.218.114 (talk) 23:32, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

No, as this infographic is a neutral display of people born in Ireland or of Irish descent. The Banner talk 23:56, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

You will find that Queen Elizabeth II is descended from Grace O'Malley and from Hugh O'Neill, Earl of Tyrone. The 1st Duke of Wellington was also descended from that Hugh O'Neill. Princess Diana was descended from Rory O'Moore. To say that any of them are ethnically pure English indicates poor scholarship.78.16.50.43 (talk) 08:46, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Video clip on the origins of the British and the Irish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEL7nCM5itg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFQiuGvxMd0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.73.133.236 (talk) 15:39, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Infobox

@The Banner: The infobox is only slightly shorter, but now all the photos are sloppily placed and it's difficult to read. Would you please put my changes back? --Steverci (talk) 01:53, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

No! Your design of the infobox took half of my screen and was far too massive. Would have made the article unreadable for users of the mobile version of Wikipedia. The Banner talk 09:59, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia, so that's not really a strong argument. Even so, the infobox is virtually the same size, but your design would make it difficult to select photos. --Steverci (talk) 01:26, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

@The Banner: If you will not defend your reverts, I'm going to restore my edits. --Steverci (talk) 19:20, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Sometimes I have a life outside Wikipedia, sorry for the inconvenience caused by that.

Secondly, look in the archives for earlier discussions about the photo gallery. There is a clear consensus to keep the present presentation. (archive 5) The Banner talk 23:39, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but you've been here editing in the meantime. Anyway, just had a look at the whole thing, it was a 4-1 vote against you, then Mabuska changed his vote. And now I'm saying Option two is better, so it's 4-2. It's also worth pointing out there was never an agreement for Option one, Lfdder just thought it was becoming a waste of time and let you have your way. --Steverci (talk) 16:55, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

If you go on a hiatus again, the infobox will have to stay the previous way until you take the time to discuss this. --Steverci (talk) 02:06, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

This is not a vote, this is about consensus. The consensus is to keep the present style. The Banner talk 07:11, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

And as I stated before: your presentation was extremely wide. It took up nearly half of my (wide) screen. It will be an even bigger intrusion for people with a smaller screen or the mobile users. You have to think about them too. Personal taste is not a concern here. The Banner talk 07:19, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Again this is an online encyclopedia so that was their mistake, and also again by far the biggest problem they could have is it would be frustratingly difficult to select a picture with the current collage. Granted, we'd just simply have to adjust the width for my collage so it's roughly the same size as yours.. --Steverci (talk) 01:32, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

T. E. Lawrence?

What makes T. E. Lawrence Irish? His father was from Ireland, but that doesn't mean that Lawrence himself was Irish. Are there any sources that call him Irish or any evidence that he considered himself Irish? --64.132.0.201 (talk) 01:12, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for warning that somebody had changed the infobox is something ridiculous wide and with strange pictures. Reverted now. The Banner talk 04:30, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

No problem --64.132.0.201 (talk) 18:56, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Ethnicity is generally determined by parentage. As his father was from a long-established Anglo-Irish family, it can therefore be said that the was half Irish. On the matter of ethnicity, his mother was 1/4 welsh. --Uamaol (talk) 18:13, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Origins and antecedents

I'm fairly sure I have commented upon this before, but ... why does an article on IRELAND start with "Prehistoric settlement of the British Isles" [sic], and quotes from the National Museum of WALES? Fergananim (talk) 17:48, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps because the Celts did not only live on the island of Ireland but also on other islands and in regions as nowadays Wales? The Banner talk 19:00, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

No. There is not the slightest evidence for any 'Celtic' presence in Ireland, past or present. There remains only one valid use of the term Celtic, and ethnicity is not one of them. Fergananim (talk) 17:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

The Celts were groups of people from middle Europe fleeing the Roman army, some of whom appear to have gradually been assimilated into earlier Irish indigenous peoples over time according to recent language and DNA studies.<ref. Celtic from the West 3: Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages — questions of shared language John T. Koch (Editor); Barry Cunliffe (Editor)ISBN: 9781785702273 | Published by: Oxbow Books | Series: Celtic Studies Publications | Year of Publication: 2016 It was the 19th century attempt by cultural leaders like WB Yeats to counter the severe Irish racism that led to the claim of Irish as Celtic (or European) people as the Thomas Nast cartoon from Harper's Weekly 1898 exemplifies.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Revival — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eimear Ni Neill (talk • contribs) 22:05, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Total population

"c. 70–80 million worldwide". Can we please make clear the difference between Irish people on the one hand, and people of Irish descent? The actual Irish population is far smaller than the "total population" cited! Fergananim (talk) 17:42, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

We are talking about the "ethnic group" and that is quite a bit more than just Irish people. The Banner talk 19:02, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Then why is the article called Irish people? Fergananim (talk) 17:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

Why are sources like Seamus McManus, Bob Quin, Irish Central, Stephen Oppenheimer and Bryan Sykes, used as sources? The first three utterly misuse source material, the last two woefully misunderstand them. Are people not aware of actual Irish history books? You know, written by historians??? Fergananim (talk) 18:47, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

You should allow some time to respond to this, now I have reverted youedtits. Could you explain a bit more clearer what is the problem with those sources (with evidence) instead of chopping everything away? The Banner talk 18:57, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Apologies, I should have done as you said. Nevertheless, why is it that a folklorist, a TV producer, an American website, and two British scientists, are considered appropriate sources for a historical article? Fergananim (talk) 17:27, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, I think Mac Manus is an undesirable source. There's no shortage of good history books written by modern scholars, and no reason to rely upon the view of romanticist written almost a century ago. A simple way to determine if a source is reliable is to see if the author is cited by his/her peers in the field. If modern historians don't use so-and-so as a source for early Irish history, we probably shouldn't either.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 21:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree. I can't say that I have ever heard of those names in regards to proper works on Irish history. I concur that a lot of older stuff falls into romanticism, but so does some stuff that is perpetuated by "expert" historians today, however there is some older stuff from a century ago that is of high regard, even if it does have a nationalist twang to it. Mabuska <sup>(talk)</sup> 12:47, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Ethno-national nature of article compromised by recent edits

The most recent edits of the table include a multitude of people who do not fit into the ethno-national definition of 'Irish' as favoured by this article - namely that the Irish are a 'nation and ethnic group.' To give one example, Jonathan Swift was in fact Anglo-Irish, and would not have considered himself as part of an Irish nation or ethnic group. Aardwolf A380 (talk) 23:53, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

What is happening is that an IP is adding a silly big array of very dubious people. I consider that vandalism so I have reverted it, like many times before. The Banner talk 19:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

"Anglo-Irish (Irish: Angla-Éireannach) was a term used primarily in the 19th and early 20th centuries to identify a privileged social class in Ireland, whose members were the descendants and successors of the Protestant Ascendancy."

Being born in a country/region, or having parentage of a country/region, usually makes you of that country/region. A fair deal of those which would have met and still meet the conditions of being Anglo-Irish, see themselves as Irish of English descent, even those of the unionist community. Uamaol (talk) 16:36, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

== Wikipedia can't say this in it's own voice, we need an attributed quote. And as other sources disagree, we need them as well. Doug Weller (talk) 05:24, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Other sources say that those survivors of the massacre by Oliver Cromwell at Drogheda, mainly women and children numbering thousands were shipped to the Caribbean plantations "to whiten the stock" Eimear Ni Neill (talk) 21:48, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

References

NI flag

Northern Ireland doesn't yet have a flag. Gob Lofa (talk) 12:09, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

You could possibly have the following:Northern Ireland or , just as these exist: England or . Regards Denisarona (talk) 16:35, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Hard to see cross-community support for either any time soon. Gob Lofa (talk) 16:43, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

The standing consensus was that Northern Ireland is not an independent state so the flag of the parent state has to be used. What new arguments do you have to change that consensus? The Banner talk 18:37, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Poppycock. Explain then the use of the Scottish flag in similar circumstances. Gob Lofa (talk) 18:49, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

No serious arguments? The Banner talk 19:08, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

That's fair enough. Gob Lofa (talk) 19:16, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

We are talking about the standing consensus on this article, not on the consensus somewhere else. The Banner talk 19:30, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I disagree; so does Snowded. Where's your consensus? Gob Lofa (talk) 19:33, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Still, where are your arguments that the standing consensus needs to be overturned? (I hope you are able to see that the UK-flaf was in use by and large from August 2013) The Banner talk 22:21, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Northern Ireland doesn't have a flag. IMHO, using the Union Jack for NI, would merely create confusion here, as it's already being used for the UK. GoodDay (talk) 20:47, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. It would correctly state both states existing at the island at present. The Banner talk 22:11, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

NI isn't in Great Britain. GoodDay (talk) 22:13, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom but I admit, on the island of Ireland. The Banner talk 00:11, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Proposed solution

Place the 'Republic of Ireland' with the other sovereign states in the infobox. Then combine the Northern Ireland & Great Britain entries into one entry - 'United Kingdom'. GoodDay (talk) 22:17, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

And since the current Great Britain estimate is very rough (check its source discussion) we need hardly budge it by just changing Britain to UK. Sounds good to me. That way only sovereign states are listed with (ahem) recognized flags. Juan Riley (talk) 22:47, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

The alternative is listing only Ireland (the island) without a flag...perhaps a shamrock? Juan Riley (talk) 22:56, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Happy to move to UK and have implemented that. If a NI figure is required it could be put under the UK figure this avoiding the contentious flag issue ----Snowded <sup>TALK</sup> 23:27, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I go with GoodDay's recent edit. Though I will admit to question marks concerning the numbers. Juan Riley (talk) 00:20, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

But folk must realize all such numbers are hand-waiving estimates. Juan Riley (talk) 00:22, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the articles about ethnic groups

Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a Request for comment process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment here. Hahun (talk) 23:37, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

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New data Celtic DNA

This recent study (http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature14230) may require a revision about the Irish-Celtic DNA section. According to the study there is no modal Celtic DNA, at least in the UK. My guess, and this is pure speculation, is that, when compared with the UK, Irish most closely resembles Welsh DNA and this study indicates that the Welsh DNA is of another category from traditionally Celtic areas such as Cornwall.Utopian100 (talk) 19:07, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

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Infobox at odds with lede

So this article explicitly states in the lede: The Irish people (Irish: Muintir na hÉireann or Na hÉireannaigh) are a Celtic nation and ethnic group native to the island of Ireland, who share a common Irish ancestry, identity and culture. In the infobox it states Regions with significant populations: Republic of Ireland 4,581,269 (2011)[2] Northern Ireland 1,810,863 (2011)[3]

Basically the total populations of both the RoI and NI have been taken and simply classified as all belonging to a Celtic nation and ethnic group who share a common Irish ancestry, identity and culture? Yeah, that's total bullcrap. At best all the article should state is that it refers to people from Ireland.

Then if you take into consideration the "Irish diaspora", not all of them descend from the Celtic nation and ethnic group, indeed what is a true Irish ethnic group considering the amount of migration and mingling between various different peoples on the island over the centuries and even millenia.

Article is a joke. Mabuska <sup>(talk)</sup> 22:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Feel free to improve. The Banner talk 22:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Will be some undertaking, care to help? Mabuska <sup>(talk)</sup> 22:52, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

You had at least four year time to spot the fact that the article was lacking in quality. Why the harsh response now? The Banner talk 23:34, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

The article has not been the same throughout that period and things get missed especially with a watch list as big as mine. Why your lack of improving the article either in that time frame? Mabuska <sup>(talk)</sup> 08:16, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Because I am Dutch and no expert. The Banner talk 11:11, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Coulda fooled me going by all your previous interactions and views given above, but regardless I will sandbox and work on it. Mabuska <sup>(talk)</sup> 12:22, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

I live in and on Ireland. And my main concern is to keep the article neutral and fight vandalism. The Banner talk 19:22, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

ireland is considered one of the six celtic nations along with cornwall, britanny, isle of man, scotland and wales so I fail to understand your grievance.Chris hazzard1981 (talk) 19:00, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Re-read what I'm on about. Also if you are the same Chris Hazzard as the SF politician then you have an obvious conflict of interest on this issue. Mabuska <sup>(talk)</sup> 14:24, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Though to point out, obviously you feel Irish and that you are part of the Celtic nation, but how does the surname Hazzard fit into that? Obviously it is all parts of a whole but not all Irish are Celts. Mabuska <sup>(talk)</sup> 14:47, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Well I am certainly culturally celtic and partly ethnicically celtic. By "partly ethnically" I mean that I am sure some of my ancestors were celts in Gaelic Ireland, inter-ethnic breeding pretty much guarantees this. I would say even Ian Paisley snr was partly ethnically celtic.

Celtic culture is the indigenous culture of this island, which I and everyone else was born and raised in. The most pro-union and anti-gaelic culture place in the North of Ireland (shankill road) derives its name from Gaeilge which I think speaks for itself.

If that does not make Ireland a celtic nation then I dont know what does.

I am not the sf Chris Hazzard by the way but I am related to him.Chris hazzard1981 (talk) 15:07, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Actually Celtic culture originates from central Europe and thus is not indigenous to Ireland. You see that's the issue with the article at the moment. You are partially ethnically Celtic, and so am I, but how do any of course know for sure? Academics are now rectifying the mistakes of 19th century antiquarians in stating that Celtic is a culture (language included) not an actual ethnic group. No one is entirely "Celtic". And not everyone here is brought up in Celtic culture but many of those would consider themselves Irish. Indeed the English and Scots culture and influences is as much part of Irishness as Gaelic. The Union has no bearing on the matter or what the people of the Shankill think about Gaelic or whatever. What does matter that as Irish people (being from the island of Ireland) many of them aren't of Celtic culture or maybe even ethnicity. See the article is a confused mess. Mabuska <sup>(talk)</sup> 18:39, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Well yes but there is no evidence Irish celtic culture does not originate in Ireland. I think every person has an upbringing with a celtic backround, be it because the town they live in derives its name from Irish, they play hurling, they live in an area that for thousands of years was inhabited by the ancients celts or whatever whether they like it or not. I suppose the article should say how the people of Ireland are not 100 percent culturally or ethnically homogenous. It does seem to paint all Irish people with a broad brush when it ought not to. The article should reflect the cultural and ethnic diversity of Irish people.Chris hazzard1981 (talk) 19:16, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Because someone lives in a town whose name may derive from Irish or live in an area that was inhabited by someone else previously does not equate to being brought up in that culture. Being brought up in a culture means being brought up with that language, traditions, art, beliefs, etc. Do people in Strangford grow up with a Scandinavian culture seeing as its name derives from Norse? No. Apart from that I agree with your last statement.

No nation or ethnic group in the world is 100% homogenous. The Irish people are very diverse and not all derived from the one select source. To state so is to ignore all the Mesolithic, Neolithic, Iron Age and Pictish pre-Celtic culture people in Ireland as well as the later Romanised Britons (most famous of them all being St. Patrick), Norse, Danes, Norman (Cambro, Anglo, and Scoto), Norse-Gaels, Scots, English, German Palatinate, Huguenot, Moravian, Jewish - to name the most prominent, and that doesn't even look at what constitutes those peoples.

As J.P.Mallory states in The Origins of the Irish, ISBN 978-0-500-29184-9:

Current archaeological evidence admits at most the entrance of small bands of elites and their craftsmen, but there is nothing to support a major settlement of a foreign population ('the Celts'). On the other hand, the evidence of tribal names would appear to suggest that broad areas - a third or more of the island - were occupied by tribes presumably speaking Celtic languages or dialects of Britain or the Continent.

More importantly they state the following which can be used as a response in regards to the edit you reverted (not made by me by the way):

Page 244: That the ancient authors never referred to the ancient British or Irish as 'Celts' has attracted an enormous amount of publicity and debate over whether we an legitimately apply the term 'Celtic' to the Irish (and ancient British) or whether the 'Celtic' name represents a recent myth constructed by modern nationalists in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales to put distance between them and the dominant English.

Page 245: In a nutshell not only was there no evidence that anyone on the Continent ever extended the name Celts to the people of Ireland but also until the time of George Buchanan (a 16th century Scottish poet), no one in Ireland ever imagined that they shared any particular kinship with their British neighbours, irrespective of what cover name might be applied.

Page 246: We are into sensitive political territory here, with 'Celticity' regarded by some as an inherent element in the national self-identification of the Irish. When a recent popular introduction to Irish history boasts that 'Ireland is now the only remaining Celtic nation in the world' you can understand why, in the eyes of some, dismissal of the Irish as a Celtic 'people' may be regarded as a form of intellectual genocide perpetrated largely by insensitive or even malicious English academics.

Are the Irish actually a Celtic nation? Not really. Like all nations it is a mongrel where certain aspects of its diverse strains shine greater than other aspects, such as its Q-Celtic language, which is the oldest surviving language in Ireland. Indeed most would assume that the bagpipe is a quintessential part of Scottish Celtism, but it originates from the ancient Near and Middle East. Mabuska <sup>(talk)</sup> 21:36, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

You are strawmaning me. I mentioned "celtic backround" as opposed to "celtic culture". There is a difference.

I am not sure why you think ethnic and cultural diversity in Ireland does not make her a celtic nation. To say "x is a celtic nation" is not to say everybody is ethnically and culturally the same. If I were to say "czech republic is west slavic nation" I would not be wrong despite the fact that there are ethnic and cultural germans living in the sudetenland. I also think if a citation refers to Ireland as a celtic nation wikipedia should refer to it as such.

I am not sure how the idea of a celtic identity not existing until recent times is really an argument for anything. I can tell you consider yourself British despite the fact that the idea of the Britishness never existed until imperial invasions.

Strawmaning? I dont know what that means. I do call it unconfortable reading for those who believe in highly dubious myths. And in regards to a British identity, it was created by James I in the early 17th century to provide a common identity for the people of the kingdom's he ruled. Even it is older than the idea that Ireland and Scotland are Celtic nations.

A look at my user page tells you straight away I am a British citizen but that doesn't mean I'm not an Irish person. I am as I from the island of Ireland. However Irish people also means people from the Republic of to which I am not. Two different definitions on Irish people ignored by this articles introduction and general scope. And anyways what I am or consider myself to be has absoltuely no bearing on this issue and implies a crass attempt at ad hominem to denigrate my highly valid points.

If Ireland was not considered a Celtic nation until the last few centuries due to nationalist antiquarians and the such, claims now ever more widely disputed then how can they be reliably called such in this article with such certainty? I have provided a source that is widely acclaimed even by Irish nationalist press such as the Irish News. A very specfic expert source that shows that calling Ireland a Celtic nation is fraught with problems and why so. At best all we can do is state that it is regarded as such by some but disputed by others and why so. The first couple of sentences of the intro is not the place for this. Indeed it is suited for the article on the so called Celtic nations.

Indeed this article is about Irish people not what kind of nation they are alleged to be which is silly considering as even you admitted, the Irish aren't homogenous as are no people on the planet. The eulogies of both James Craig and Edward Carson both call them proud Irishmen, did they consider themselves part of a Celtic nation? Celtic is a part of Irishness but only a part. You can't be a Celtic nation if your only part Celtic. Ireland is as much an English nation if you consider the language that dominates the island and many other close cultural traits but no-one is calling for that absurdity to be added in the article. Mabuska <sup>(talk)</sup> 01:59, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

By "strawmaning" I meant that your argument was a strawman. No it was not an ad hominem attack. You were making the argument or at least seemed to be that because the idea of a celtic identity for Ireland was only created recently by nationalists it did not exist. I was merely pointing out your doublethink.

Ok I think you are right there, I will revert my edit now.Chris hazzard1981 (talk) 08:45, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

I hadn't looked at this before, but yes I think it is better without Celtic in the lead. + Being pure Fir Bolg myself I protest at the way these Milesian immigrants have taken over the place and called it their own ;-) Dmcq (talk) 10:38, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

• Note: User:Chris hazzard1981 is now blocked per CU. — fortunavelut luna 11:14, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I think we all agree that "Celtic" is shorthand for "not Anglo-Saxon", and as such the word was used for cultural propaganda and has no meaning due to the lapse of time. Wolfe Tone was not Celtic but was certainly Irish. Dancing the jig survived longest in Ireland, but it did not come from Ireland.78.16.50.43 (talk) 08:58, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

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As an identity?

I find it weird how this page is only referring to the "Irish" as an ethnic group. If it's true that the Irish are also a nation (which makes it political and most likely involving citizenship), then I can't see why citizenship cannot be involved on the page. By definition, an ethnic group is a group of people who identify with each other on a basis of a common descent, culture, language, a certain life style, history, etc. For most "Irish" abroad, they only claim it because they had a few or so ancestors in their family tree who were Irish and therefore this page considers them "Irish." As much as being of a certain ethnic group can be awesome and preserving the culture as well is good. However, citizenship is pretty much the most important part of someone's identity especially since after the 19th century. By definition, a "foreigner" or "alien" is someone who is in a country and does not have the citizenship of said country. So there are many "Irish" who go to Ireland and are a matter in fact "foreigners." I find it silly how by just of being descent without having the cultural aspect and/or language of said descent one comes from makes them belong to that specified ethnic group. --Scarslayer01 (talk) 17:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

For starters, Irish people living on the island can have two different nationalities: Irish or British. The Banner talk 17:43, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

No, Britain refers to the island of "Great britain" and small surrounding irelands, called the british islands, Northern 195.221.62.126 (talk) 15:18, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Ireland is Irish, not british 195.221.62.126 (talk) 15:18, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Irish - basque genetic connection

any assertion that there is genetic affinity between ireland and spain or the Basques need to be removed in liu of R1b arriving in Iberia AFTER ireland — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bell beakerman (talk • contribs) 03:54, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Evidence? The Banner talk 10:24, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

It is widely known R1b came from the steppes https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25738 90% genetic overturn in both britain and ireland, Irish people have no genetic affinity to the Basques, Iberians, South France, in fact they are closer to Russians genetically Bell beakerman (talk) 23:23, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

It is widely known that that article not even mentions the R1b haplogroup. Using the same source is different disguises is also not helpful. This looks like own research. The Banner talk 03:07, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Rash edit ... but

I have made a rash edit to the article, but James Minahan is simply not a good source for these matters. Can editors PLEASE use Irish scholars, preferably recent ones rather than those who simply restate inaccurate stereotypes such as Minahan? ("The Cornish are related to the other Celtic peoples of Europe, the Bretons,* Irish,* Scots,* Manx,* Welsh,* and the Galicians* of northwestern Spain" - none of that is true, and relies only on definitions by the Celtic League, which are based on 19th-century English racial concepts. Please, stop). Fergananim (talk) 11:53, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Reversion by "The Banner"

Some user called "The Banner" is reverting valid edits based exactly on what is stated in the Irish DNA Atlas study. If he bothers to take part in the talk page, he needs to explain his reversions. He has not provided a sufficient explanation thus far. 142.116.202.86 (talk) 19:41, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

You call my edits "trolling" and then expect some serious discussion? The Banner talk 20:12, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, because they are. You are just reverting them without logical explanation. You are required to discuss your edits here. If not, they will be reverted as per WP. 142.116.202.86 (talk) 20:14, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

You show the typical treats of someone lacking arguments. The Banner talk 21:01, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

You haven't provided a single argument in response to any of your reversions here, or in most other articles you've contested with me. A single small sentence attacking me is not a valid argument. You still have not explained the reason for your reversions at this respective article here. You also already violated 3RR at Gaels of Scotland. 142.116.202.86 (talk) 21:08, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

It looks that you and you alter ego Bell beakerman are aggressively promoting this haplo-stuff. Your sources are not as conclusive as you make them. The Banner talk 09:05, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Again, you are not making any valid arguments, but spewing personal attacks and nonsense. Not sure who the user "Bell beakerman" is, but there is no connection to me. The sources I provided ARE completely conclusive and widely accepted now in archaeogenetics. The sources I proved are from the enormity of the genetic community, including the top experts in the field of Irish and northern European genomics right now - Cassidy, Haak, Lazaridis, Reich, etc. It's proven now, based on a enormous amounts of genomics studies and ancient DNA, that the majority of the Irish genome - and of northern Europeans in general - was replaced by Bronze Age invaders. Irish Bronze Age remains were compared with all modern Europeans, and Irish have been found repeatedly to be the closet population to them. The Basques have no "special" connection with the Irish, apart from carrying very high frequencies of R1b, but Basque R1b is a completely different subclade than that of the British and Irish (Haplogroup_R-M269#Sub-clades), and genome analysis has shown them to be mostly Neolithic farmer and WHG, with only a minor amount of Yamnaya (Steppe) ancestry. They have been shown consistently to be genetically closest to other Iberians and to Sardinians. Irish are closest to other British Isles populations and other northwestern Europeans.

All the information I have entered is taken directly from all of these high-respected academic studies, almost verbatim. Just because you have some unqualified disagreement with them is not a valid reason to remove the content. 142.116.202.86 (talk) 13:58, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.173.129 (talk) 18:54, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Is there a valid reason why you keep reverting my edit back?

My original edit read like this

Names that begin with "O'" include Ó Bánion (O'Banion), Ó Briain (O'Brien), Ó Cheallaigh (O'Kelly), Ó Conchobhair (O'Connor, O'Conor), Ó Chonaill (O'Connell), O'Coiligh (Cox), Ó Cuilinn (Cullen), Ó Domhnaill (O'Donnell), Ó Caiside/ Ó Casaide (Cassidy), Ó hAnnracháin, (Hanrahan), Ó Máille (O'Malley), Ó Mathghamhna (O'Mahony), Ó Néill (O'Neill), Ó Sé (O'Shea), Ó Súilleabháin (O'Sullivan), and Ó Tuathail (O'Toole).

Names that begin with Mac or Mc include Mac Cárthaigh (MacCarthy), Mac Diarmada (MacDermott), (McCormick), Mac Cana (McCann), Mac Donnchadha (McDonagh), Mac Conmara (MacNamara), Mac Craith (MacGrath), Mac Aodha McHugh, mag Samhradháin (McGovern), (McLaughlin), Mac Domhnaill (MacDonnell), Mac Mathghamhna (MacMahon), Mac Aodha (McGee) and Mag Uidhir (Maguire). Mac is commonly anglicised Mc. However, "Mac" and "Mc" are not mutually exclusive, so, for example, both "MacCarthy" and "McCarthy" are used. While both "Mac" and "Ó'" prefixes are Irish in origin, "Mac" is more common in Scotland and in Ulster than in the rest of Ireland; furthermore, "Ó" is far less common in Scotland then it is in Ireland, and any surnames with Ó prefix are nearly universally of Irish origin. The proper surname for a woman in Irish uses the feminine prefix nic (meaning daughter) in place of mac. Thus a boy may be called Mac Domhnaill whereas his sister would be called Nic Dhomhnaill or Ní Dhomhnaill – the insertion of 'h' follows the female prefix in the case of most consonants (bar H, L, N, R, & T).

Names that begin with "O'" include Ó Bánion (O'Banion), Ó Briain (O'Brien), Ó Cheallaigh (O'Kelly), Ó Conchobhair (O'Connor, O'Conor), Ó Chonaill (O'Connell), O'Coiligh (Cox), Ó Cuilinn (Cullen), Ó Domhnaill (O'Donnell), Ó hAnnracháin, (Hanrahan), Ó Máille (O'Malley), Ó Mathghamhna (O'Mahony), Ó Néill (O'Neill), Ó Sé (O'Shea), Ó Súilleabháin (O'Sullivan), and Ó Tuathail (O'Toole)

Names that begin with Mac or Mc include Mac Cárthaigh (MacCarthy), Mac Diarmada (MacDermott), Mac Domhnaill (MacDonnell), and Mac Mathghamhna (MacMahon) Mag Uidhir (Maguire) This section is not properly sourced by the same logic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.173.129 (talk) 19:15, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

All I did was add more surnames to improve the article, for some reason Iv'e been told this is controversial and poorly sourced, despite the sources being of the same standard as the article before my edit, so what gives?

It was not poorly sourced, you have added a lot of stuff without any proof. Not a single source did you give. The Banner talk 21:28, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Not a single source was given in the original article by that logic. Claims made. Names that begin with "O'" include Ó Bánion (O'Banion), Ó Briain (O'Brien), Ó Cheallaigh (O'Kelly), Ó Conchobhair (O'Connor, O'Conor), Ó Chonaill (O'Connell), O'Coiligh (Cox), Ó Cuilinn (Cullen), Ó Domhnaill (O'Donnell), Ó hAnnracháin, (Hanrahan), Ó Máille (O'Malley), Ó Mathghamhna (O'Mahony), Ó Néill (O'Neill), Ó Sé (O'Shea), Ó Súilleabháin (O'Sullivan), and Ó Tuathail (O'Toole).[64] Apart from Cox none of this is sourced.

Names that begin with Mac or Mc include Mac Cárthaigh (MacCarthy), Mac Diarmada (MacDermott), Mac Domhnaill (MacDonnell), and Mac Mathghamhna (MacMahon) Mag Uidhir (Maguire). Mac is commonly anglicised Mc. However, "Mac" and "Mc" are not mutually exclusive, so, for example, both "MacCarthy" and "McCarthy" are used. While both "Mac" and "Ó'" prefixes are Irish in origin, "Mac" is more common in Scotland and in Ulster than in the rest of Ireland; furthermore, "Ó" is far less common in Scotland than it is in Ireland. The proper surname for a woman in Irish uses the feminine prefix nic (meaning daughter) in place of mac. Thus a boy may be called Mac Domhnaill whereas his sister would be called Nic Dhomhnaill or Ní Dhomhnaill – the insertion of 'h' follows the female prefix in the case of most consonants (bar H, L, N, R, & T). Several claims made here not sourced either.

While both "Mac" and "Ó'" prefixes are Irish in origin, "Mac" is more common in Scotland and in Ulster than in the rest of Ireland; furthermore, "Ó" is far less common in Scotland than it is in Ireland This is not only false, but not sourced either. You also reverted another one of my edits that was sourced which you claimed the source was not good enough, who are you to decide what sources are good enough? It seems to be just you the nutty Dutchman doing this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.143.100 (talk) 13:08, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Starting with personal attacks does not help. Provide some sources is the way to go. The Banner talk 13:12, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

You can't just ignore criticism, You're being unreasonable and abusing your power. Most of the article was not sourced at all, and definitely not to the standard you're asking me to source it too. It wouldn't be feasible anyway to source every single surname. The prefix surname O' is and has never been in Scotland any with the prefix are of Irish origin, the article makes it out like the prefix is also of Scottish origin it isn't. Mac/mc are both of Irish origin, but the claim that it's more common in ulster and Scotland is inaccurate and not sourced. It's more accurate to say it's more common in NI and Scotland due to the Plantation of Ulster However, it's still fairly common in the republic including ulster, 3 counties of which are in the republic. O' surnames are not that much more common I reckon. For example the most popular surnames in Ireland in order is Murphy, Bryne, Ryan ect. With surnames like O'brein or O'connor slightly ahead of surnames like McDonough and McCarthy. Although the most popular surname in Ireland Murphy is anglicized from "Mac Murchaidh"/"Mac Murchadh" and Ó Murchú" Wikipedia is about contributing to the article not removing parts you don't like for whatever reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.143.100 (talk) 19:08, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

You can't just ignore criticism, (...). To be true, you are rather successful in ignoring criticism. You still have long stories en accusations, but no sources to back up your claims. The Banner talk 19:21, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

What criticism have I ignored? I provided sources, how would you like me to provide sources in a practical way? The article I have contributed to which you have removed with reasonable justification is not even sourced. I provided the same standard of sourcing as was already used in the article, which you seem to have trouble understanding? You shouldn't be allowed to edit a page and delete stuff because you don't like it and don't know what you're talking about. Again how would you like me to source it and if so the rest of the article should be scrapped under your own logic.

References

Infobox problem

The population numbers in the infobox need to be standardised. At present the figures for the USA, Australia, Canada and New Zealand obviously show the numbers of people claiming some Irish Ancestry, while those for Britain are for people of first generation Irish origins. This is comparing chalk and cheese, and needs to be amended. There is sufficient reference material available that shows that the numbers of British people who could claim Irish citizenship is around 6 million (at least one grandparent born in the island of Ireland), and the number with some Irish ancestry is around 14 million. It is these figures that should be employed here, as indeed they are on the Wikipedia article Irish migration to Great Britain. Urselius (talk) 20:18, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry to have missed this before, Urselius, this is obvious indeed, the UK is the one exception, and if we are to consider the 40M USA figure (which is most assuredly not made up of those with even 1 grandparent, but reaches farther back), then the 14M UK figure is the appropriate comparator. Let's be bold, reference and add. SeoR (talk) 10:33, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Done. That said, that leaves the US, UK and some other figures comparable, but even quick Googline suggests that 2-3 other numbers also need checking, and the whole aspect maybe needs better coverage, as there were other destinations, but it is partly a matter of how far back, and on what evidence we can rely. But at least we are back to (because this has happened before, and the first gen.-only thing was a poor edit) a sensible clarity about UK scale-of-presence, and order of the list. SeoR (talk) 10:42, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

As someone who is half-English, half-Irish, born in the UK, who is married to someone with exactly the same mixed ancestry, the figures were irritating, to say the least. The same might be said for the UK census questionnaire, which has a box to tick for almost any ethic mix you could think of except English/Irish. As a protest, I alternate between the two. Urselius (talk) 15:04, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Infobox order

Not that I agree with the constant re-ordering of things in infoboxes by a certain editor to suit whatever arbitrary sorting method they've decided on using on any given day, but if the infobox is sorted by number surely Great Britain should be lower down in the infobox? FDW777 (talk) 19:53, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Unsurprisingly they have started to edit-war in pursuit of their arbitrary re-ordering method despite the fact I generously started this discussion on their behalf... FDW777 (talk) 08:13, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Are irish people middle eastern?

Experts are now saying out in public that irish people are middle eastern because of the middle eastern invasion of ireland that occured and that irish people are able to have blonde and red hair because the people who originally inhabited ireland had red hair and blonde hair and that irish people get their black hair and wavy hair from the middle eastern invasion. The original people who inhabited ireland were a proto-germanic people and those proto-germanic males wer killed off and the proto-germanic women of ireland were raped by middle eastern males.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.79.189.165 (talk • contribs) 06:03, 9 August 2021 (UTC)‎

Any sources? Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:30, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

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