Talk:Ironic (song)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: — Legolas ^(talk2me) 06:27, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Many issues, but strong article. — Legolas ^(talk2me) 06:27, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

• Non-review comment - How and why does the alternative cover pass the free-use criteria?--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 13:57, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Already removed. 20:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Resolved comments — Legolas (talk2me) 08:17, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

;Infobox *My only qualm is the alternate cover, it is not discussed anywhere in the article, nor does it significantly add anything to the article (a silhouette of Morissette performing live is replaceable). Remove it. Removed, but one thing: Alanis sat on a throne is replaceable as well. 01:31, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Per {{Alanis Morissette}}, I don't see any separate release info or singles categorized as such. We try to maintain a liner chronology based on the earliest release date. Hence chose any one of them. Change. 01:31, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Lead *Per the writing section, it doesnot state that "Ironic" was written in 15 minutes, it states that within 15 minutes, they started writing. So rather it means that their inspiration, creativity flourish took place within 15 minutes. So the second sentence needs to be rephrased. It says "It was written by Morissette and Glen Ballard within fifteen minutes," not "It was written by Morissette and Glen Ballard in fifteen minutes," 01:31, 26 June 2011 (UTC) That's still wrong. The source does not state that the writing was finished within fifteen minutes. Rather, within 15 minutes they started writing it. Teh song may have been done in 16/17 or whatever minutes, but at present its summary is wrong. — Legolas (talk2me) 05:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Removed; you are trying to rephrase a quote making a BLP violation. 22:35, 27 June 2011 (UTC) *and it was... --> remove it Done 01:31, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Why not state the exact date? Done 01:31, 26 June 2011 (UTC) No need to repeatedly mention CD single, cassette single etc, their wikilink should be enough, so have it as "released it as the album's fourth single on February 27, 1996, in CD, maxi and cassette formats. Done 01:31, 26 June 2011 (UTC) key of B major, which includes a moderate tempo --> Which here implies that the key of B major included a tempo of so-and-so... change the word to and. Done 01:31, 26 June 2011 (UTC) it was noted by people that the song was not doing it --> People here is abstract, you need to be thorough as to who's calling it what, parodying what etc. Done 01:53, 26 June 2011 (UTC) where currently is her highest-charting single on the Billboard Hot 100 --> and currently... Done 01:53, 26 June 2011 (UTC) In that country, --> No need to mention that since the full form of RIAA explicitly states that the certifying body is of America. Done, although alot of people from the Americas, including me, are offended about this. America is a continent not a country. 01:53, 26 June 2011 (UTC) RIAA strictly refers to USA, not to Canada or Alaska or Mexico. *On it Morissette drives through a winter landscape and she plays multiple roles as her passengers. --> In it, Morissette drives through a winter landscape, and she plays multiple roles as her passengers. Done 01:53, 26 June 2011 (UTC) The critical reception part of the song needs to be enhanced, then merge it with the commercial para. Next move everything about the music video in the third para. At present it doesn't look nice. Done, I guess 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) "Ironic" was listed on the set list of her tour Jagged Little Pill World Tour (1995), --> "Ironic" was included on the set list of her Jagged Little Pill World Tour (1995), Done 04:11, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Comma after 2009 Done 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) and it was performed at the House of Blues with a collaboration of Canadian singer Avril Lavigne in 2005. --> and was performed at the House of Blues in 2005, along with Canadian singer Avril Lavigne. Done 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Writing *Song sample rationale, fine. comma after studio album. Done 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) The sheet music was published by whom? Sony/ATV or Alfred? Because both names are listed. You need to include the publisher name in the prose also. "is a comically long disclaimer for something as obvious and non-controversial"—User:Indopug. Something I agree with. Tbhotch.™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) You did not get my point. In prose you are wikilinking it to one publisher, while in the source to another. Well none of them is correct. Musicnotes gives the publisher name as Universal Music Publishing Ltd. — Legolas (talk2me) 05:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Removed links. 22:35, 27 June 2011 (UTC) From the sheet music I can see that her voice spans from E5 to B♭5. Added (I do not see it). 03:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Go to arrangement tab. *attention by media --> media attention Done 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) the fact about it being "unironic" seems like somebody's quote, if so modify accordingly else rephrase. ""unironic"[5][6] sense.?" Not done. 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) When you add in prose something like "...and, in fact, the song gives an "unironic" sense..." this makes it sound like some one else is quoting it, rather than "you" paraphrasing a written prose. I think it would be better to phrase it as: "The song's usage of the word "ironic" attracted media attention for an improper application of the term, because according to Jon Pareles of The New York Times, the song gives a distinct "unironic" sense in its implications." *attacks --> tense check, attacked. Done 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) likens --> too shabby,try "compared" Done 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Critical response *that "[Jagged Little Pill] ... --> this is not clear, and reading the review I feel that the name inside the braces should have been ['Ironic']. No, it is not: ""Jagged Little Pill", was actually a powerful - if flawed - record. It ... It also gave us pop's greatest parlour game, with spot the genuine irony in "Ironic" (we go for the ten thousand spoons line)." The bolded "it" cannot be referred to "Ironic". 04:01, 26 June 2011 (UTC) The reviewer called the song "idiotic", not "idiots". "...the idiocies of the lyrics..." 04:01, 26 June 2011 (UTC) idiocy here is a noun, whose adverb is idiotic, while idiot here will be an adjective. The reviewer pointed out the idiotic lyrics, while calling it idiot would imply that the reviewer is describing the whole song's idiocy. — Legolas (talk2me) 05:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Done. 20:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC) marked the track as one highlight of the album --> marked the track as one of the highlights of the album Done 04:01, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Erlewine did not pick "Ironic" as an album highlight, he mentioned it as a track pick, which mainly refers to tracks which can work indivitually, mainly as singles. Done 04:01, 26 June 2011 (UTC) He also commented in another article he wrote the song was actually "unironic" --> He also commented in another article he wrote, that the song was actually "unironic" Done 04:01, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Dave Brecheisen of PopMatters wrote that in the acoustic version of "Ironic", Morissette "surprising[ly] made [it] worse". --> Dave Brecheisen of PopMatters felt that the acoustic version of "Ironic", was much worse than the original version. (lessening the direct attributions) Done 04:01, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Chart *For reference 21, add some heading like "Peak chart positions for "Ironic"" or something. Looks out of the blue at present. Done. 03:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC) twenty-eight of the --> on the Done. 03:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC) On its eighth --> In its eighth Done. 03:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC) The part about the Aussy charting can be moved with the next para. North America chartings + Rest of the world, is how generally we keep it since NA contributes more charts than the others. Done. 03:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC) GA and FA quality articles should not use Chartstats Done and 03:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC) For what? — Legolas (talk2me) 05:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC) For the "GA and FA quality articles should not use Chartstats". It is not listed at WP:BADCHARTS, and those archive links are used when there are no other sources are available. Tbhotch.™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 22:35, 27 June 2011 (UTC) You can use official source still. This gives how many weeks "Ironic" charted in UK, and the accompanying graph gives the positions too. So you don't need to use chartstats. I'm actually thinking of asking WP:GOODCHARTS to make them as alternate archive links, lets see. — Legolas (talk2me) 09:07, 29 June 2011 (UTC) Music video *comma after Mark V Done. 03:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC) sweater sat in the front passenger seat --> sitting in the front.. Done. 03:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC) At the end of the video, the car breaks down and when Morissette (as the driver) gets out the automobile, all her passengers have disappeared. --> At its conclusion, the car breaks down and when Morissette (as the driver) gets out of the automobile, all her passengers have disappeared. Done. 03:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Tracklisting *You are using both () and [] braces. Select one. Done. 03:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Charts *Mainstream Top 40 (Pop Songs) --> Mainstream Top 40, what the chart was called then. Done. 03:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Longbored surfer is not reliable. Done. 04:01, 26 June 2011 (UTC) The Dutch charts link to the comprehensive Radio 538 chart, but references the Single Top 100. The radio 538 chart is preferred since it is comprehensive and includes both airplay + sales. Juat? 04:01, 26 June 2011 (UTC) In the charts, you are using the Dutch Top 40, while the reference uses Single Top 100 chart. The Single Top 100 is a sales only chart, while the Dutch Top 40 is a sales + airplay chart on which "Ironic" peaked at 6. A comprehensive chart should be used when available instead of a single field chart, per WP:GOODCHARTS. So change the source for Dutch Top 40, accordingly. Done. 05:41, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Typo in German chart reference, its Chartverfulgong Done. 04:01, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Per WP:ACCESS we need to include the !scope="row"| for the tables. Its not mandatory, but somehow helps in tracking Not done. 03:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC) References Needs en-dash in place of normal dash. Done 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Why is the sheet music title in italics? {{Citation}} 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Self-publishing sources do not need publisher, like The New York Times, The Washington Times, BBC etc. Done 04:01, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Ref. 44 has the total number of pages instead of the exact page no. I have not the exact page, Google books shows only a preview. 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Its page 145. — Legolas (talk2me) 05:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC) The first Allmusic reference for JAgged Little Pill doesnot mention Erlewine as the author. The first Allmusic reference nowhere mention Erlewine as the author ("^ a b c d "Ironic – Alanis Morissette". Allmusic. Rovi Corporation. Retrieved November 30, 2010.") 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Sorry my mistake. — Legolas (talk2me) 05:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC) That's all, I'm placing in hold for seven days, let me know if you have questions. — Legolas (talk2me) 14:27, 25 June 2011 (UTC) Almost there. :) — Legolas (talk2me) 09:07, 29 June 2011 (UTC) This gives a detailed critical analysis of the scenes and the detachment of the song from the video. You can incorporate them for improveing the video section, which seems rather pale considering the song was so popular. Did you try to incorporate them? — Legolas (talk2me) 05:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC) I need to read it, understand it and incorporate this information with the section, and some other information I may found. 05:41, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Let me know if you need any help wiht this. — Legolas (talk2me) 09:07, 29 June 2011 (UTC) *SPIN nominated it as the "Worst video of 1995" in their annual reader's poll. Why a poll that includes "Tonight, Tonight" for both "Best Video" and "Worst Video, at the same time, would be reliable? 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Google books really has some interesting commentary regarding the video. Searching. 05:41, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Done, I guess. 08:01, 2 July 2011 (UTC) Legacy *My problem with the content is that its not in any way legacy, flat out. Cover version, parodies, etc are not exactly how the song affected society, which determines its legacy. For eg: songs like "Papa Don't Preach", "Like a Virgin", "Thriller" etc are classic examples of how they impacted the industry, society. Recent example would be Single Ladies. I've changed this header many times, please give me a suggestion. 03:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Only part where I see anything to do with legacy is the same-sex marriage support. Maybe you can expand on it? Move the other infos in the respective sections. The only way I see this is that a cover version section, because that's what it mostly talks about. — Legolas (talk2me) 05:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC) I've re-re-re...titled the section to "Incorporations in the media and parodies", if you believe it needs to be re-changed notify me. Also, I splitted the SSM stuff. 20:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC) I tweaked it a little bit. Added some SSM info. 08:01, 2 July 2011 (UTC) Rock on the net is unreliable. Too bad to the List of awards and nominations received by Alanis Morissette. 02:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC) That list was promoted two years ago and FL criteria is much strong, not making allowance for sources like Rockonthenet. As for the source used in this article, it can easily be replaced by Billboard. — Legolas (talk2me) 05:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Replaced, excepy "MTV's 100 Greatest Music Videos Ever Made." I didn't find a source. 08:01, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I've collapsed all resolved comments, it looks better. Now, I finally have the "music video" section:

The music video for "Ironic" was directed by Stéphane Sednaoui. In it, Morissette appears driving a dark blue 1977 Lincoln Mark V, through a winter landscape. She plays multiple roles with multiple personalities as her passengers. Jeremy G. Butler noted in the book Television: critical methods and applications (2002) how Morissette interacts with the watcher. He commented that unlike Britney Spears' "Lucky" music video, where Spears plays dual role of a girl named "Lucky" and her fan, and both appear together in some scenes helped by visual effects, "Ironic" does not utilize them, using solely editing, giving the sense that all the Morissettes interact with each other. Journalist Carol Vernallis also found that Morissette's "chitchat" way of singing the song creates an intimate connection viewer. She mentioned the video in her book Experiencing Music Video: Aesthetics and Cultural Context (2004), where she studied how the audience may pay attention to the lyrics of the song in a music video. Vernallis added that "Ironic" music video functions as a limited example of how the meaning of a song's lyrics become "inaccessible" when they are videotaped and televised.

But I believe that it needs a copy-edit before post it on the article. Also I found something helpful at GBooks: "In "Ironic," there is no world outside the car's windows, just the different sides of Alanis — a set of imagery that suited her self-help-language damaged songs. Morissette may have kept her clothes on for the video, but "Ironic" ..." but I cannot access to it. The book is Money for nothing: a history of the music video from the Beatles to the White Stripes, any help? Tbhotch.^™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 20:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Great work, I copy-edited it a little. As for the book source, it doesn't talk much further about it, the rest goes.. "but 'Ironic' strikes a distant similarity with the previous [I guess its talking about the song where she was naked] one, both being that the central character is always the one who walks alone." You can incorporate the music video section now. — Legolas ^(talk2me) 06:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Done, although I do not know if the latest should be added. Tbhotch.^™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 08:01, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Not needed actually seeing that it goes into the description and analysis of the other song, with "Ironic" added only as a comparison. Anyways, I'm happy to see the developments and it can pass as a GA now. Congratulations. — Legolas ^(talk2me) 08:17, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Thak you so much for review it and make work like I used to do it months ago. Tbhotch.^™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 08:19, 2 July 2011 (UTC)