Talk:Isaac Gregory

Wounded in Battle

I hope there may be someone monitoring this page for General Isaac Gregory (G. Moore?) I am wondering if he may be the right "Gregory" to fit in with the following entry, which is on the Charles Asgill page? This book [1] has three mentions of "Gregory" - two as "General" and one as "Colonel" - none giving a Christian name. I'm wondering if the author made a mistake with the different ranks, or whether there were two different Gregorys serving in the Continental Army? I do need to know, so very much hope someone will respond? The following does seem to tie in with Isaac Gregory's battle wounds though, and the British erroneously thinking he had died of his wounds.

Captain Asgill is only seventeen years of age, a captain in the first regiment of foot guards, and only son of Sir Charles Asgill, Bart. Possessed of every virtue that can endear him to his family or acquaintance, and in the last campaigns in America, has given sufficient earnest of a spirit and conduct under the different commands, (which have devolved on him by the illness or absence of his senior officers), that would render him an honor to his profession and country. ... so well known to him [General George Washington] by his bravery and humanity in different instances, particularly when the command devolving on him by the illness of his colonel, he took a post from the Americans, commanded by colonel Gregory, who being old and wounded, he supported him himself, with an awful and tender respect most filial, evincing the true greatness of his amiable mind.

Having checked here List of military leaders in the American Revolutionary War it looks as though only one senior officer with the surname "Gregory" served in the Continental Army, Isaac Gregory, so it does look as though he is the "Colonel Gregory" mentioned above. Might Dormskirk and Cordless Larry be available for an opinion? Are my deductions safe enough to put the above on the main article? I've asked the question on the MilHist talk page, but no takers there. Is there anywhere else I should ask? Anne (talk) 15:29, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Anne - The List of military leaders in the American Revolutionary War seems to focus on brigadier generals and above so it might be quite an heroic assumption to assume that it was definitely Isaac Gregory although it is quite possible. Just my opinion. Best wishes, Dormskirk (talk) 15:53, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Dormskirk.

• The book was written by a Sergeant who may not have known of Gregory's promotion.
• The battle wounds are such that Asgill may well have felt the need to help him.
• The British were well aware of the wounds and thought he would have died as a result.
• One of the sources has this: "He was captured, but British doctors released him when they thought he was dying. Cornwallis even recorded him as among the American dead." So, if this is Asgill's "Gregory", he took him to a British medical unit, not his own Lines. I suppose that was obvious really as he would have been a prisoner-of-war.
• I can find no alternative "Gregory"! The book has a "Colonel" and 2 mentions of "General" Gregory.
• So, what do I do? Shall I add and see if it sticks?
• Where else do I go for advice? The edit is not the important thing. My current "project" is the reason I need to know. Anne (talk) 16:07, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

References

Anne - Based on the points you have made, I think there is a good chance that this is the right one and would have no objections to you including it. But it would also be good to get Cordless Larry's view. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 17:12, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Dormskirk, I hope that Cordless Larry will agree too. I think it is most likely the right "Gregory". Anne (talk) 17:55, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't know enough about military history to really give a view. My only real contribution here, I think, is to remind you that the relevant policy is explained at WP:BURDEN. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:56, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Cordless Larry. I can, of course, see your point - I wouldn't be asking if the matter were clear-cut. I don't think I've ever read an account of this period where mistakes didn't occur. There are several in the Mayo book, and she was meticulous. Even Henriques has made the sort of mistakes for which there is no excuse in this internet age. I couldn't believe my eyes when I looked at the Irish Uprising article - there was no mention of Asgill - and he was one of the generals in charge of a District. I have a strong feeling this is the right Gregory, so I will make the edit - as I'm sure you realise - in good faith. I think the Asgill addition makes it an even more interesting story. Anne (talk) 07:33, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

My Gregory edit has been removed, in total, and I am hoping there will be support for replacing it in one way, or another

The fact that Gregory's life was saved by an enemy officer carrying him to a first aid unit within British lines seems entirely appropriate to me to be included in his article. This was not an everyday occurrence. It has been established that Asgill served in South Carolina and that these events were confirmed in a face-to-face discussion which took place between the author, Lamb, and Asgill, in Dublin in 1810. I would like to open a discussion as to whether the following entry should be returned to the article? It could be modified, perhaps, by putting some of the information into a box which shows up when the reference is clicked on (not something I have the expertise to accomplish, unfortunately). The edit in question (now totally deleted) read:

R. Lamb, late Serjeant [sic] in the Royal Welch Fuzileers [sic] referring to his book, wrote: "As I am in possession, of more accurate information on this subject than most who have written on American affairs, I shall take the liberty of detailing on the facts.” However, he refers to Gregory as “colonel” after his promotion to “general”, and gives the wrong age for Asgill, who was nineteen years old at the time, not seventeen. Writing in 1809, Lamb quoted an extract from a Hibernian Magazine article of 1782, which read:

Captain Asgill is only seventeen years of age, a captain in the first regiment of foot guards, and only son of Sir Charles Asgill, Bart. Possessed of every virtue that can endear him to his family or acquaintance, and in the last campaigns in America, has given sufficient earnest of a spirit and conduct under the different commands, (which have devolved on him by the illness or absence of his senior officers), that would render him an honor to his profession and country. ... so well known to him [General George Washington] by his bravery and humanity in different instances, particularly when the command devolving on him by the illness of his colonel, he took a post from the Americans, commanded by colonel Gregory, who being old and wounded, he supported him himself, with an awful and tender respect most filial, evincing the true greatness of his amiable mind.

Lamb’s book was published in 1809, and the following year he met Asgill in person, in Dublin, and heard first-hand about Asgill’s experiences in America. He considered him to be deluded in believing he "would go to heaven for all the good actions he had done." Asgill and Gregory were both serving in South Carolina, as is attested in Asgill’s service records."In the beginning of the Year 1781, went out to South Carolina in America and from there joined the Army under the Command of the Marquis Cornwallis and served in the Campaign, was afterwards at the Siege of York Town in October 1781" Anne (talk) 10:51, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

References

I hope editors will comment. In the meantime, Dormskirk, while I know you won't edit, if you have an opinion on the latest development, it would be appreciated if you would comment. Cordless Larry is out of action for the time being. I was warned about NOT EVERYTHING (hence my suggestion of using the text boxes in references which I cannot do myself), but I did not know that encompassed taking EVERYTHING out.Anne (talk) 18:21, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Anne - I can see why the material has been removed: it does seem to give undue weight to Asgill in a short article which should be about Gregory. However, I don't think it would do any harm to include one short sentence here on Asgill without all the detail. Perhaps something stating that troops under Gregory's command included Captain Asgill whose exploits during the war were referred to as the Asgill Affair - if that is indeed the case. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 18:44, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

They were on opposite sides Dormskirk. Asgill saved the life of an enemy. That is what is different about it. It was extremely difficult to prove. Having done so, (the author meeting Asgill and hearing about it face to face) I feel this is relevant, but it needs all the sources to put the story together. I agree it was too long, but I don't know how to do the 'information in a drop down box' thing. If I did, I'd have done it that way. Anne (talk) 21:36, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know enough about the topic but I suggest you try putting together a simple sentence that summarises what Asgill did for Gregory. Otherwise I fear it stands little chance of being retained. Best wishes, Dormskirk (talk) 21:41, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Dormskirk. I can't make it briefer than this, because all 3 references are needed to support the following:

Writing in 1809, Roger Lamb quoted an extract from a Hibernian Magazine article of 1782, which told of Captain Asgill rescuing Gregory after he had been wounded “he supported him himself, with an awful and tender respect most filial, evincing the true greatness of his amiable mind”.[1] The following year Lamb met Asgill in person, in Dublin, and heard first-hand about Asgill’s experiences in America.[2] Asgill and Gregory had both served in South Carolina, as is attested in Asgill’s service records [3] Anne (talk) 23:17, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Anne - I think you could tighten it further as follows: "Captain Asgill of the 1st Foot Guards rescued Gregory after he had been wounded.[1] The following year Lamb met Asgill in person, in Dublin, and heard first-hand about Asgill’s experiences in America.[2] Asgill and Gregory had both served in South Carolina.[3]." Just my thoughts - it would be good to get the views of other editors. Dormskirk (talk) 23:34, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Your edit is fine by me Dormskirk. I hope it can be done. Anne (talk) 23:40, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

OK, so I think I have prepared it, ready to go. Don Hagist, who wrote the book about Lamb meeting Asgill said that reference to the Hibernian Magazine must be included, so here goes:

Captain Asgill of the 1st Foot Guards rescued Gregory after he had been wounded, as quoted in the Hibernian Magazine of 1782. The following year Lamb met Asgill in person, in Dublin, and heard first-hand about Asgill’s experiences in America. Asgill and Gregory had both served in South Carolina. Anne (talk) 00:01, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

References