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Dream?
editUser:OnWikiNo has added "Ice + lily or dream" to the infobox, as the meaning of the name. I was surprised by the "dream" part (apart from the whole suggestion being unsourced, that is). Which element in the name do you take to mean "dream", please? Bishonen | talk 09:49, 14 June 2016 (UTC).
- I suggest the entire parameter be deleted. "Lilja" doesn't mean "lily" (although "lilje" does), and it doesn't mean "dream" either. This whole article is full of speculation and original (often incorrect) research. So is the article on the album. Softlavender (talk) 09:55, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed. The creator removed my prod without giving a reason, and, as I've just told them on their page, I'm thinking of taking it to AfD. But as for "lilja", while I'm no specialist in Norwegian forms, might lilja mean lily in Bokmål or Høgnorsk? Bokmål has a lot of -a endings. (It does mean lily in Swedish.) Bishonen | talk 10:08, 14 June 2016 (UTC).
- I looked it up on both Norwegian wikis, and the spelling I found is "lilje" on both. "Lilja" is a given name, but "lilje" is the flower "lily". That's all I've been able to determine lately. In any case, there is no citation for the claim in this article, which is what matters. Softlavender (talk) 11:15, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed. The creator removed my prod without giving a reason, and, as I've just told them on their page, I'm thinking of taking it to AfD. But as for "lilja", while I'm no specialist in Norwegian forms, might lilja mean lily in Bokmål or Høgnorsk? Bokmål has a lot of -a endings. (It does mean lily in Swedish.) Bishonen | talk 10:08, 14 June 2016 (UTC).
@Softlavender and Bishonen: Regarding lilje/lilja: Norwegian is inflected, lilje = lily, and lilja = the lily. (In Bokmål liljen may be the more common definite singular form.) Sam Sailor Talk! 12:00, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
- Sam Sailor, do you know what "Ise" means, if anything? If so, you could add the information on the meaning of the two words into the infobox and/or article text. Softlavender (talk) 06:33, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
- @Softlavender: I'd prefer to have a reliable source to cite, but since we for now don't, let's try to apply some innocent SYNTH: As Iselije is older than Iselin, it makes sense to think that the Ise- element has the same root. According to nordicnames.de, which to me looks like a serious attempt to make a sourced name database, Ise- is a variation on the Germanic name element JARN, meaning "iron". If we can agree on this until we find a source, the meaning is "iron lily". (I'd gladly argue why it's not "ice lily", if anyone still think it is. And they do in several baby name threads in online fora.) As for "dream", I think this is totally irrelevant to Iselilja. It could be relevant to Iselin, as one of the possible origins may have been the Gaelic word Aisling meaning "dream". Again, I'd certainly prefer to find sources. What do you think? Sam Sailor Talk! 10:10, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
- "What do you think?" I honestly haven't much of a clue; I'm more or less an innocent bystander on this article, trying to keep out the obvious misinformation and guesses and nonsense, but not being a Norwegian speaker nor much able to research in the language. "Iron" looks fairly vague/iffy at this point. (I would leave it up to you or others to ascertain whether to include it or not.) I had thought that if "Ise" had a meaning in one of the many current or past Norwegian languages/dialects we could find and source the Norwegian meaning. Softlavender (talk) 10:37, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
- @Softlavender: Suggest we do not include anything on the meaning before we have a source. Synth above is well intended and may be right, but in this case we should err on the side of caution, WP:V is so reasonable. Sam Sailor Talk! 15:19, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
- "What do you think?" I honestly haven't much of a clue; I'm more or less an innocent bystander on this article, trying to keep out the obvious misinformation and guesses and nonsense, but not being a Norwegian speaker nor much able to research in the language. "Iron" looks fairly vague/iffy at this point. (I would leave it up to you or others to ascertain whether to include it or not.) I had thought that if "Ise" had a meaning in one of the many current or past Norwegian languages/dialects we could find and source the Norwegian meaning. Softlavender (talk) 10:37, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
- @Softlavender: I'd prefer to have a reliable source to cite, but since we for now don't, let's try to apply some innocent SYNTH: As Iselije is older than Iselin, it makes sense to think that the Ise- element has the same root. According to nordicnames.de, which to me looks like a serious attempt to make a sourced name database, Ise- is a variation on the Germanic name element JARN, meaning "iron". If we can agree on this until we find a source, the meaning is "iron lily". (I'd gladly argue why it's not "ice lily", if anyone still think it is. And they do in several baby name threads in online fora.) As for "dream", I think this is totally irrelevant to Iselilja. It could be relevant to Iselin, as one of the possible origins may have been the Gaelic word Aisling meaning "dream". Again, I'd certainly prefer to find sources. What do you think? Sam Sailor Talk! 10:10, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
- There is also a User:Iselilja. She has been inactive across all wikis for three months, but if she ever returns, she may offer some insight on the meaning of the name. Softlavender (talk) 08:18, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
- Update: Sam Sailor: I notice that the citation quote you added to the article refers to the "ice" part, although I don't pretend to understand the various inflections or why the "e" is present in the name:
The name is, according to Norwegian historian Harald S. Næss in his eponymous Knut Hamsun biography (1984) and according to A Handbook of Scandinavian Names (2011),[1]
References
- ^ Harald S. Næss (1984). Knut Hamsun. Twayne Publishers. pp. 167–. ISBN 978-0-8057-6562-5.
The significance of the name Iselin is often brought up and never solved. To a Norwegian the name could contain the elements "ice" and "mild" ("is" and "linn"), but above all it is reminiscent of certain medieval folk ballads about princesses and rejected suitors, with names like Iselilja, Sylvelin, etc. In a ballad-inspired ...
In regards to lilje/lilja: does wikt:lilje clarify? The following example demos the declension (and how closely related modern English as a West Germanic language in some cases is to North Germanic languages) where the article is suffixed by changing the noun ending in No/Da/Sv:
| Language | Sing. indef. | Sing. def. |
|---|---|---|
| English | "Lily" is a plant. | The lily is red. |
| Norwegian | "Lilje" er en plante. | Lilja er rød. Bokmål alt.: Liljen er rød. (Cf. Danish below.) |
| Danish | "Lilje" er en plante. | Liljen er rød. |
| Swedish | "Lilja" är en växt. | Liljan är röd. |
In regards to Ise-:
A. We have a source that says the word element Ise(n)- means "iron", (cf. German Eisen and Old English isærn = iron).
- Examples: Isefjorden, Izegem, Isengard, Isengrim
B. We have the word element Is- meaning "ice", as in
- English - Norwegian/Danish
- Iceland - Island
- Iceman - Ismand
- Icebreaker - Isbryter/Isbryder
- Ice cream - Iskrem
and you could continue that list till the cows come home.
C. Ise- vs. Is- ... why the jumble?
So when Næss in the quote writes (my emphasis) "To a Norwegian the name [Iselin] could contain the elements "ice" and "mild" ("is" and "linn"), but above all ..." it sounds to me as if he, as a historian, not a linguist, says "it's not hard to understand why the average Joe would think "ice" when he reads "Ise", but I think that ...". So why would a Norwegian (or a Dane for that matter) easily think that Ise and Is both mean "ice". I can think of a reason ...
Take the noun is (ice) and add an -e, you form ... well, it's either a gerund or a nonfinite verb ... ise, as in the infinitive at ise til = to ice up. As in:
| Language | Example |
|---|---|
| English | The freezer is icing up. |
| Norwegian | Fryseren iser til. |
And from there its seems plausible that one could derive from "Iselilja" the meaning "ice lily". Which may, when the name purportedly became wider known (again?) by the 2004 release of Iselilja, have been amplified by the use of a blue lily on the cover.
Let us await a source. Sam Sailor Talk! 15:19, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Age
editWe have conflicting sources regarding the age of the name.
On the one hand, Iselilja is mentioned in a well known medieval ballad, no:Knut Liten og Sylvelin that is G*d knows how many hundred years old, and, according to two book sources found online, the name has been a probable influence for Iselin, a name known since the mid 18th century and made popular by its use in Knut Hamsun's 1894 novel Pan.
On the other hand the respected Gulbrand Alhaug is cited as claiming it's a new, composite name. Can anyone get hold of a copy of his book 10 001 navn: norsk fornavnleksikon. Cappelen Damm. 2011. ISBN 978-82-02-24184-1.? Sam Sailor Talk! 18:10, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
- Well, if it had been used as a name (albeit minimally) in song and fiction prior to the 20th century, it's not precisely a bona-fide "new name". Maybe it was simply not in (wide) usage in real life until somewhat recently, or maybe it fell out of use for several centuries and has now been revived and it therefore seems like a new name. I think this wiki article as it now exists is fine, without the contradictory mention of Alhaug. Softlavender (talk) 10:54, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
- I support the removal of the Alhaug quote, and will continue to try to get hold of a copy of his book to see what he wrote. Sam Sailor Talk! 15:19, 28 June 2016 (UTC)