Talk:Islam Feruz

Somalian Category

Hello there, Don't you think if Category:Somalian Footballers is reserved for Internationals then it should be moved to Category:Somalia international footballers to match the majority of categories & to avoid confusion. ★☆ DUCKISJAMMMY☆★ 16:24, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi. What I meant was that the cat is reserved for actual citizens of Somalia. Apparently the gentleman's Scottish, naturalized. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 16:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok well in that case it doesn't need to be moved, but don't you think that Feruz still should be included in the category as anyone born within a nation has citizenship. The category simple means he is a footballer & he's from Somalia. ★☆ DUCKISJAMMMY☆★ 16:38, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

The "Somalian" titles on wiki are usually reserved for Somalia nationality, and the "Somali" titles for people from the specific ethnic group from the Greater Somalia region (c.f. [1]). Also, please see [2]. Middayexpress (talk) 16:58, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok that's fine per reference no.5 thanks for you time. ★☆ DUCKISJAMMMY☆★ 17:07, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

He actually is no longer a Somalian citizen since acquiring Scottish nationality (c.f. [3]). Middayexpress (talk) 17:15, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes I know I had read that section & agreed with you that's why I said it's fine per reference no.5. Regards ★☆ DUCKISJAMMMY☆★ 17:19, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see. lol I thought you were referring to another link. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 17:21, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Tanzanian

Despite reports to the contrary, Islam Feruz is apparently Tanzanian. It has come to light that he was not actually born in Somalia to that country's Bantu ethnic minority group. He was actually born in Zanzibar, a semi-autonomous archipelago of Tanzania. This is why he has a typically Zanzibari name. This article in Swahili (the official language of Tanzania) explains the confusion. The Perthshire Advertiser's coverage of Feruz's reception of the 2010 Young Scot Award also identifies him as being from Tanzania. Middayexpress (talk) 18:01, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

There are however plenty of sources saying he is Somalian [4]. While I don't know which is correct I don't see what makes that source more likely to be right than the ones that say he is Somalian. Adam4267 (talk) 18:30, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

When sources such as the BBC and The Scotsman are saying he is so Somalian its far more reliable than the Tanzanian source. Now I'm not saying that is incorrect but that we should really go with the more reliable multiple sources until this can be cleared up. Edinburgh Wanderer 18:36, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

I realize that gentlemen. However, Feruz is not actually a Somalian citizen because Somalia technically does not allow dual citizenship (see discussion above). It's also an open question as to whether or not he was even born in Somalia. For starters, the Swahili-language article features images of Feruz's family. They resemble Somalia's Bantu ethnic minority (who are a majority in Zanzibar and Tanzania at large); so it's conceivable on this basis that he may have been born in southern Somalia. Kismayo, his purported birthplace there, also has a large Bantu community, so this supports his story. What doesn't at all are both his own personal name and those of other members of his family. Islam, Albashir, Kauthar... these are not Somali Bantu names. They are, however, pretty typical of Zanzibar's Muslim Swahili culture. How does one explain that? There's more that doesn't add up. In this article, his mother claims that the family "got a boat to Yemen and from there we flew to London". This would contradict other reliable sources which claim that they fled to Tanzania and from there emigrated directly to the UK (c.f. [5]). Needless to say, there are a lot of holes in this fellow's story. Some of this is clearly notable. Middayexpress (talk) 19:31, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

While I'm not disputing the accuracy of what you say, or your knowledge. Most of that is unsourced and original research. Also blogs etc aren't reliable sources so information from them can't be considered. As far as reliable sources are concerned (most of which feature quotes from the family) the story seems fine. Adam4267 (talk) 20:35, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

The material indicating that Feruz may actually be from Tanzania was sourced. However, it was reverted for some reason although it's clearly notable as a possible place of birth. The fact that his mother claims that the family fled to Yemen and subsequently sought asylum in the UK, whereas other reliable sources (e.g. Daily Record [6]) indicate that they actually moved to Tanzania from where they directly emigrated to the UK is likewise notable. As the Scottish Sun notes, after Feruz tweeted that he "would love to play in the African Nation Cup! Despite being eligible to play for 2 African countries other than Som :P MyDream!!! :D": "There is some mystery surrounding his background but it’s understood the two other African countries referred to are Tanzania and Zanzibar." This is all notable. Middayexpress (talk) 21:04, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

The source did not seem to be reliable and most major, reliable sources (one which you just referenced) say he's from Somalia. I'd consider his mother's own statement more reliable but its possible they moved to Tanzania then to Yemen or something and someone from Young Scot (who wrote the Tanzania bit) has misheard. If he was from the Bantu community it would make sense that he was eligible for other countries as someone in his family would likely be born there. What exactly is it you think should be in the article, it would be easier if you said that. From that Sun source we could add more to his international career. But what else is there? I still maintain that from the sources provided so far there is no real evidence he was born in Tanzania. You could, however, tweet him. Or I'll do it if you don't use Twitter. He might not reply and its not the best source but its worth a shot. Thanks Adam4267 (talk) 21:55, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

There's a debate as to Feruz's actual background, one that has been explicitly noted by the Scottish Sun and which this bio in its current form does not mention. The debate has only picked up pace of late since Feruz's tweet claiming that he was "eligible to play for 2 African countries other than Som" (he was subsequently forced by Chelsea to shut down that Twitter account, btw).

The question is, how could he be eligible to play for two other countries in Africa besides Somalia if he was supposedly born there and, according to his mother anyhow, emigrated to the UK directly from Yemen? The only conceivable way this would be possible is if either a) he was actually born in Tanzania/Zanzibar, b) he lived sufficiently long enough in Tanzania/Zanizibar to have acquired citizenship there (which is rendered possible by the Daily Record's and Perthshire Advertiser's assertions that he emigrated directly to the UK from Tanzania), or c) his parents themselves are actually originally from Tanzania/Zanzibar; the Scotsman seems to suggest as much: "It has been reported that he could also play for Tanzania and Zanzibar due to family connections, as yet unverified."

Given the reliable sources above, we should mention this debate about Feruz's actual background. The material on his reported familial roots in Tanzania/Zanzibar, the conflicting accounts regarding which exact country he emigrated to the UK from, his own Twitter comments and the reception they received are all notable. Middayexpress (talk) 14:08, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Saying he is eligible for two other countries, thought to be Tanzania and Zanzibar is fine by me. Everything else, is not. It isn't well referenced enough and some is OR. Adam4267 (talk) 17:27, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:TALK, you'll have to be specific as to which exact statements you feel are original research because I obviously only intend to add assertions that are actually mentioned in the reliable sources linked to above. The latter include Feruz's own comment as to which countries he feels he could represent nationally, which is certainly notable. Middayexpress (talk) 12:18, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Did you actually read my above comment. Adam4267 (talk) 13:35, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Sure. You wrote that saying that Feruz is eligible (presumably to play) for two other countries, Tanzania and Zanzibar, was fine by you. You also stated that everything else wasn't okay because you felt it wasn't well referenced enough and some you felt was OR. However, you never actually explained which exact statements and sources you are referring to in that last sentence. This is what I'm asking of you now. Please be specific per the talk policy and explain your reasoning here. Middayexpress (talk) 13:49, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

The thing is apart from the Zanzibar/Tanzania eligibility, I don't know what it is you actually want to include. Apart from a comment about him possibly not being from where he says he's from. That is mostly OR, and a few mentions in not particularly reliable sources which are far outwheighed by the reliable ones. Adam4267 (talk) 14:09, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

As I wrote, I obviously only intend to add assertions that are actually mentioned in the reliable sources linked to above. Per the neutrality policy: "editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." That said, kindly again specify which exact source(s) linked to above you think is unreliable. Is it the Daily Record? The Perthshire Advertiser? The Scotsman, perhaps? If for whatever reason you are unable to do so, I shall ask elsewhere for clarification on this matter. Middayexpress (talk) 15:09, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Firstly the Scotsman article doesn't mention him not being Somalian. And The Daily Record (in any event not known for its fact checking) says he was born in Somalia then moved to Tanzania. I've never heard of the Pertshire Advertiser before now but it's clearly not comparable with the BBC and other mainstream media. Adam4267 (talk) 16:48, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I didn't state in my comment above that the Scotsman article indicates he isn't Somalian (which, in any case, he technically isn't given Somalia's laws regarding dual citizenship). I said that I intend to add assertions that are actually mentioned in the article and the other reliable sources cited in my previous comment. That includes both Feruz's own reported twitter comments and the assertion that "it has been reported that he could also play for Tanzania and Zanzibar due to family connections, as yet unverified". As for the Daily Record, it asserts the same thing as the Perthshire Advertiser i.e. that he emigrated directly to the UK from Tanzania. We can source this to the PA if you prefer since it's eligible for inclusion under the npov clause on significant views. The Perthshire Advertiser has an online presence too, btw [7]. Middayexpress (talk) 17:33, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

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