Talk:Islamic State/Archive 11

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Map of ISIS controlled areas (again)

Further to this thread earlier, I wasn't sure what was finally stopping the change to reflect uninhabited areas. I raise it again now because with the bombing campaign, maps of the ISIS areas have been widespread in the media. They are almost always in the spider web style and not showing the large uninhabited areas as coloured in. This gives a very different impression and we seem to be an outlier with our map. Given that the map needs to reflect RS isn't there anything that can be done? DeCausa (talk) 10:29, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Could the country boundaries be marked in as well? The maps in the media always show them. Essential information, I would have thought. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:05, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Here's 2 typical examples: from the BBC and from the New York Times. DeCausa (talk) 11:30, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

This has been discussed before, but here is my thoughts. Is it fair to show empty desert 100% surrounded by ISIL controlled roads and towns as controlled by the Govt when there are likely no Govt troops there? Cause that is exactly what the spider web maps suggest. No other map I've ever seen outside of ISIL maps follows this spider web design. Legacypac (talk) 19:03, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

But "outside of ISIL maps" is exactly the point. I'm not saying which is better; the point is if the RS are representing ISIL maps this way then we should be reflecting that. Presenting a non-typical map is WP:UNDUE. (And I'm aware this was discussed before, I linked to the last discussion. But that was inconclusive.) DeCausa (talk) 19:40, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I just searched "map of isil controlled areas" with Google as an image search. Try it - my count of the first 30 results is 25 block style maps outweighing 5 spiderweb style maps. Other searches and counting further down the page would likely yield similar results. Legacypac (talk) 21:14, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Do it without all the blogs etc and include ISIS and Islamic state. Almost all the high quality RS in recent weeks are using spider web style. DeCausa (talk) 21:21, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I did a image search without knowing what the quantifiable answer would be - and got a clear one. I just tried with ISIS and IS got the same general results. Lots of big name RS using block maps - BBC, Fox, DailyMail, ABC.net.au and so on. Can you quantify your statement more concretely? Legacypac (talk) 22:10, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

The so called spider web maps you cite merely connect the various cities together with lines. They do not reflect the fact that ISIS controls and operates in the various desert areas we have coloured in on the map. They actually have controlled many of these areas prior to their major offensive against fallujah in December of 2013 for example see here [[1]]XavierGreen (talk) 02:30, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I think that the style of map is a POV issue. Traditionally states have their territory marked by the territory they have formal control whether or not they occupy it. For example Canada or Australia would look very different if the spider type maps were used. So I suspect that the use of spider maps originate from the US military/convert/diplomatic sources. The issue of what reliable sources to use has in this conversation spanned maps up to a year old (which are ancient history). I suggest that the survey is restricted to maps in reliable sources over the last 3 months (to roll over as the months progress). The spider maps are more useful if one wishes to understand what is going on the ground (as in Syria the more detailed maps seem to intertwine the different powers in the country), but their use is unusual for showing who controls what in such conflicts. -- PBS (talk) 12:46, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Revamping and reduction of timeline

I renamed Timeline of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant events in 2014 -> Timeline of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant events and included all entries from the renaming in April 2013 to the present. I also moved the other timeline entries before this to Islamic State of Iraq#Timeline. This clears up clutter in the main article. There may an entry or two that isn't copied that could be applied to previous groups removed in this diff. The latest (~30 days) of events from the timeline are still transcluded into this article. If they weren't users would be putting them in this article and the main timeline article would not be maintained.

I also mentioned above that this article should be moved from C to B class and considered for Good Article or even Feature Article nomination. There's been a lot of hard work, and even some innovations on how to present so much information. I would also like to propose reusing and revamping the Leadership table now in at Islamic_State_of_Iraq#Leadership to help keep track of the known leadership of ISIL. Most leaders have their own articles which is good.~Technophant (talk) 22:04, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Nice idea - I cleaned the list up by sorting all the dead/capture from the likely living. Only problem with a table is we know only maybe 2 active names and little about them... Legacypac (talk) 22:46, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Good work, Technophant. Gazkthul (talk) 22:56, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank goodness. Thanks to Gazkthul and Technophant the article is now down to a reasonable size. --P123ct1 (talk) 12:52, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

we need another sister EL

Wikinews:Category:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant
199.119.232.212 (talk) 16:35, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

• EL? Gregkaye ✍♪ 20:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
  • External links199.119.232.212 (talk) 21:44, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

"So-called Islamic State"

This phrasing is used as has been noted by @P123ct1: in Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant#French distinction between the organisation and the state itself "The media put their finger on it when they call it the 'so-called' Islamic State, which unfortunately Wikipedia can't do!" and by @Legacypac: in Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant#Requested move (amended link) "Often the media uses "the so called Islamic State" with good reason. They claim power over all muslims worldwide".

"So called Islamic State" gets "About 234,000 results"

While we can't speak in Wikipedia's voice on these issues I am wondering where and how it may be possible to quote sources. Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I think there has to be a limit to how much this article (as opposed to the media) qualifies its descriptions, "so-called Islamic State", "caliph" and "caliphate" used in inverted commas, "jihadist" now being questioned, "which previously called itself the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" - the list is increasing daily. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

P123ct1 we can neither speak in Wikipedia's voice to directly describe a "so-called Islamic State" nor can we directly declare them to be jihadist. Both situations require value judgements. As I mentioned in Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant#Jihadist or similar in lead!? "If substantiated then it is certainly warranted to document any of Islamic State/..'s claims of being a jihadist group, its advocacies of jihad or anything that it actually does. Its also fair to report on interpretations of various outlets of it as being an jihadist group. However, when interpretations of Jihad vary, I don't think it right to directly label them as being jihadist."

Related reasoning to this is presented in content by Muslim scholars presented below. The earlier form of the lead presented the group, in Wikipedia's voice, as being jihadist and, two sentences later, quotes the UN and media in calling them a terrorist group. Many readers may well have stopped there and this unqualified flow of information was unacceptable.

See Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant#Jihadist or similar in lead!? for jihad related discussion.

I have mentioned the media coverage describing: "So-called Islamic State" and have queried: "where and how it may be possible to quote sources".

Gregkaye ✍♪ 11:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

At the moment the article makes no mention of "So called Islamic State" despite use being propagated by Imans.

Here are some references:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/13/term-islamic-state-slur-faith-david-cameron

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/multimedia/archive/01091/Fatwa_on_ISIS_1091394a.pdf

http://www.aobm.org/fatwa-on-the-so-called-islamic-state-formerly-islamic-state-in-iraq-syria/

http://www.mcb.org.uk/leading-islamic-centres-condemn-so-called-islamic-state/

Gregkaye ✍♪ 11:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

"notinmyname"

This is a recent campaign that seems to have rapidly gained significant prominence.

"notinmyname" gets "About 888,000 results" (This search up to 29/08/14 got "About 105,000 results")

http://www.activechangefoundation.org/portfolio-item/notinmyname/

"Non-Islamic Non-State"

"Non-Islamic Non-State" This is from a reported comment by Ban Ki-moon: http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/09/economist-explains-19

Are you saying there should be a section in the article where criticisms like this can be dealt with? I can see an argument for it. There perhaps should be a new section dealing with the questions now being raised everywhere about the legitimacy and actions of the new caliphate. I thought you were suggesting the article should start using "so-called" Islamic State! --P123ct1 (talk) 11:53, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

On the use of "jihadist", I agree with earlier comments, fine to use in the Lead as it is a common term for groups of this sort. Objections can be dealt with elsewhere in the article, as I said. --P123ct1 (talk) 12:08, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I was hoping just to ask the question regarding inclusion. (Wariness by a number of editors to the use of "Islamic State" is, to some extent, validated by recent criticisms and disputes over the use of the short form of the name. I also predict that there may be criticisms of associations between the organisation and jihad. Certainly, if a cite-worthy content is found then I agree that associations between the group and jihad might be criticised under "Ideology and belief" so on this point I agree). Can we please leave Jihad related discussion for the section on Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant#Jihadist or similar in lead!? or other new section? Its not the topic of this thread.

Current criticism and/or disputes relate specifically to the use of the name "Islamic State". I think that this could fit following Index of names and History of names perhaps under "Disputes regarding use of names". Other suggestions welcomed. Gregkaye ✍♪ 12:49, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I was thinking that as well, that it could be covered in a subsection of the "Names" section. However, it would seem a bit odd to have all that precede the history of the group and the rest, as this controversy over the name is comparatively recent. Perhaps as I said there should be a section dealing with all of the recent and growing criticism of the IS and this name controversy could be a subsection of that. --P123ct1 (talk) 13:06, 29 September 2014 (UTC).

I agree about the specific focus of the sub-topic. 'Objections to "Islamic State"' or similar in names? A section following History perhaps in conjunction with 'Designation as a terrorist group'? Gregkaye ✍♪ 13:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

No, important as the topic is, I don't think it should be given as much prominence as that. There are more important things about the group, evidenced by the new sections sequence, I think.--P123ct1 (talk) 16:39, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Moon's comments reflect my view that ISIL is not islamic and not a state. Mind you they are more islamic than any Christian and more a state than most rebel groups, but dressing up like Santa and giving gifts does not make you Santa. The use of caliph is particularly inappropriate - I would expect some evidence and generally acceptance of decent from the prophet before that title gets applied. I think we need to emphasize the "so called" type qualifiers and the critics and stick to acronyms to give balance to ISIL claims.Legacypac (talk) 17:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

A good thesis on the use of various words for political purposes http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/what-if-islamic-state-didnt-exist-2101625642 Legacypac (talk) 17:13, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea not refer to them in the article (except in the Lead) as "Islamic State" but simply as "IS". That would be a good way of dealing with the problem of WP seeming to endorse the establishment of the caliphate and an Islamic state. Perhaps the words caliphate and caliph (except in the Lead) should always have quote marks around them in the text, for the same reason. --P123ct1 (talk) 18:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I like that solution, with the modification to use ISIL as that fits with the article title.Legacypac (talk) 18:47, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree it is time to move to ISIL in the article. --P123ct1 (talk) 20:13, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

BACK TO THE TOPIC : ))
I'm still wondering about the possible placement of a criticisms section. Looking at the TOC I was wondering if this section might go well next to "Propaganda and social media". At present the order of sections goes:

7 Territorial claims

8 Governance

9 Human rights abuses ...

10 Propaganda and social media

11 Finances

12 Foreign fighters

13 Equipment

14 Timeline of events

There may be a number of ways to sequence this. Place Criticism after 10? Title? subtitles? Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:52, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Once a criticisms section is started, it will be easier to see where to put it and whether even a criticisms section will need to be broken up. I foresee that some of it would be better in "Ideology and beliefs", for example. --P123ct1 (talk) 06:23, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

United Nations designation of ISIS/ISIL as a terrorist organization - section 3

The United Nations has recently been added to the information box in section 3 as an organisation which has designated ISIL/ISIS as a terrorist organization. In August this year there was long discussion on the Talk page and elsewhere about whether editors could use the same sanctions list document now cited here to support the UN's inclusion in that infobox. The Talk page discussion is zurose arch 4 here and here, and after taking the question to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard WP:RSN here, where the opinion was that that sanctions list document could not be used to support a such a designation by the UN (see discussion there) editors decided that this document was not sufficient back-up. It is a sanctions list, and unlike the other formal country designation lists cited for other countries in that box. We could not find a statement of any kind by the UN, official or otherwise, saying it had designated it as a terrorist organisation - an editor on the RSN didn't believe the UN kept a designation list - the nearest to it was a handful of UN statements where it refers to them as a terrorist organisation, which it not the same thing. Hence the reason why the wording about the UN in the Lead appears as it does. Anyone who wishes to respond to this please look first at the discussion on the RSN. --P123ct1 (talk) 16:02, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

That was a short discussion in which no one seems to have looked at where the cited UN Security Council list came from. says the list came from this UNSC Resolution http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/RES/1267(1999) which says "Recalling the relevant international counter-terrorism conventions and in particular the obligations of parties to those conventions to extradite or prosecute terrorists, Strongly condemning the continuing use of Afghan territory, especially areas controlled by the Taliban, for the sheltering and training of terrorists and planning of terrorist acts, and reaffirming its conviction that the

suppression of international terrorism is essential for the maintenance of international peace and security, Deploring the fact that the Taliban continues to provide safe haven to Usama bin Laden and to allow him and others associated with him to operate a network of terrorist training camps from Taliban-controlled territory and to use Afghanistan as a base from which to sponsor international terrorist operations," and so on...

and many related resolutions including 2083 (2012) which says in part:

"Reaffirming that terrorism in all its forms and manifestations constitutes one of

the most serious threats to peace and security and that any acts of terrorism are criminal and unjustifiable regardless of their motivations, whenever and by whomsoever committed, and reiterating its unequivocal condemnation of Al-Qaida and other individuals, groups, undertakings and entities associated with it, for ongoing and multiple criminal terrorist acts aimed at causing the deaths of innocent civilians and other victims, destruction of property and greatly undermining stability, Reaffirming that terrorism cannot and should not be associated with any religion, nationality or civilization..."

---

I could go on, but we need to look at the clear Security Council Resolutions calling these people terrorists and authorizes the maintenance of the list referenced. It can't be any more clear that the UN Security Council has designated everyone and every organization on the list as terrorists. Legacypac (talk) 01:40, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I just reworded the page to make it more clear.

Note

Legacypac (talk) 01:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac The discussion on the RSN was lengthy. Only one of your links there works. Can you fix so we can see what those docs are? --P123ct1 (talk) 06:12, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

The editors who participated in the RSN failed to do any meaningful research, and hardly trump the UN Security Council. Let me make this really clear. Read http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/ where you will find all the data in supplied links. UN Security Council designated Bin Laden and associates as terrorists in RESOLUTION 1267 (1999) and established a Committee consisting of all Security Council members (point 6 in Resolution 1267 (1999)). In accordance with that resolution and subsequent resolutions, the committee created a list now called the "Al-Qaeda Sanctions list". It is a very detailed document. AL-QAIDA IN IRAQ got added to the sanctions list, and is now called ISIL on the sanctions list. If you read all the Security Council Resolutions linked in the first paragraph of the http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/ you will see the evolution. Each resolution is very clear that the listed people and orgs are terrorists. For example 1526 (under which AL-QAIDA IN IRAQ got added) says "participated in the financing, planning, facilitating and preparation or perpetration of terrorist acts or in supporting terrorist acts" "Reiterating its condemnation of the Al-Qaida network and other associated terrorist groups for ongoing and multiple criminal terrorist acts..." For some reason the UN site does not support linking to specific resolutions, I'll fix the article link. Legacypac (talk) 15:11, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

aL-Qaeda joining ISIL?

There are some news reports suggesting this, but things appear very fluid. Already I'm seeing al-Qaeda deopped from the opponants and added to the supporters, which does not seem justified just yet. Legacypac (talk) 10:27, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

You mean al-Qaeda franchises are supporters, surely? I thought al-Qaeda proper was still very much an opponent. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:59, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

How much longer are we going to avoid calling the Islamic State the Islamic State?

All of the awkward politicking of Western politicos aside, how much longer are we going to avoid calling the Islamic State the Islamic State? As already demonstrated, the mainstream Western media has taken to acknowledging IS as the Islamic State or the "so-called Islamic State". There is, as of now, no organization anywhere in the world calling itself either ISIS or ISIL. No such entity exists. Both monikers are sustained by people in the West who don't want to entangle themselves with the burden of fighting such an inconveniently declared entity. In light of its common name, and inconvenient factuality, it's long past time we make the move, even if it's with a qualifier such as (terrorist group), (insurgent group), or the such. If a band is called "The Greatest Band in the World" or a political party is called the "True Patriot Party" we identify them as such according to COMMONNAME and the facts. Why not here? GraniteSand (talk) 09:13, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Have you ever looked at the Talk pages to see what other editors have said about this? This subject has been discussed many, many times since the Islamic State was proclaimed. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:20, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I have. This subject is dynamic and, unfortunately, prone to the predations of a small group of interested editors. GraniteSand (talk) 09:24, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia actually does use the name Islamic State quite a bit. Legacypac (talk) 09:30, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

And the article should be so appropriately titled, as per our policies. Yes? GraniteSand (talk) 09:34, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Which it is - many RS currently refer to these guys as spelled out or acronym ISIL or ISIS including the UN Security Council. See previous discussions. Legacypac (talk) 09:48, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Au, contraire. Trending reliable sources cite this group as the "Islamic State" as already demonstrated in this thread. As a current subject prone to both WP:COMMONNAME and WP:RS there is no sustainable reason not to adjust accordingly. There is no organization in the world called either ISIS or ISIL. GraniteSand (talk) 09:56, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't see the trending you claim. I haven't seen much change in the last few weeks. ISIS, and to a lesser extent ISIL, seems to be used in the RS just as much as before. DeCausa (talk) 09:58, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Previous entries here have demonstrated that drift but more importantly, without getting into Google metrics, the AP has settled on Islamic State group and organizations such as the Guardian and the Economist have made note of the politicking in refusing to use IS as well as acknowledging it's correctness. These results with a couple minutes on Google. GraniteSand (talk) 10:21, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

This has all been discussed before. As has the irrelevance of whether or not there is "politicking". We simply reflect usage for good or ill, we don't WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. DeCausa (talk) 10:32, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

And I'm saying the previously used information is perishable and the conclusions are now wrong. The intent of political sources is not without consideration in regards to weight and neutrality, as defined by non-political sources. We have policies in place for this and the policies suggest we should change the title. We are a dynamic and tertiary resource. GraniteSand (talk) 10:40, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

The sources tend to use Islamic State for the de facto state created by the group called ISIS/ISIL. The French wikipedia has two articles and if we need to do that at some point I'd argue for Islamic State for the nation. That's assuming this becomes the commonly used name. East Germany became the commonly used name for the German Democratic Republic. The self-proclaimed official name may or may not become the commonly used name. Let's wait. Jason from nyc (talk) 12:54, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

http://www.activechangefoundation.org/portfolio-item/notinmyname/ - an Islamic voice on the matter Gregkaye ✍♪ 17:57, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

There are a lot of "Islamic voices" who have something to on the matter, including the group in question. Crowd sourced political/ideological statements have no weight as reliable sources. GraniteSand (talk) 22:34, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

• A new train of thought has just arrived being stationed at Alternative name. Gregkaye ✍♪ 12:49, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Reliable sources now using the group's official name, "Islamic State", include the Economist, as well as The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, The Associated Press, and The Guardian. GraniteSand (talk) 22:34, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Those RSs have been quoted unnumerable times in previous Talk page discussions on the group's common name. It was agreed they all use "Islamic State", but in conjunction with "ISIS". Much Talk page discussion now is mere repetition of past discussions. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:18, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 17 September 2014

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus for the move, I think that Labattblueboy's arguments are the most persuasive, followed by P123ct1's. The the other opposes are not base on the Article Title policy. -- PBS (talk) 19:12, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

As closing administrator, I suggest that new requested move for this article not be made for at least three months from the date of this close as it may be clearer in the new year what if anything is the common name, because enough time has been spent discussing the naming issue in the last month in which there has been no consensus to move, while consensus can change, it is unlikely to in the short term. -- PBS (talk) 19:12, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

From some of the other comments it is clear that this is considered to be a non-NPOV issue as well, so I suggest that if this is to be raised in future that the editor raising it has a look at Macedonia naming dispute, then search of "requested move" on Talk:Republic of Macedonia and read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia), it will help such an editor to phrase such issues based on guidelines and precedence. -- PBS (talk) 19:12, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

For future reference, "Stats for the month" are useless as they are constructed in the way there were below. For a start, raw counting of Google hits is not acceptable measure -- it is usage in reliable sources that mattet (see use commonly recognised names). Also a technical point, (assume that the [] pair represent the box in a Google search): Searches can be done on an unique string of words for example ["Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant"] (and only articles that contain that sting of words in that exact order will be returned), but search for ["Islamic State"] will return all or the previous hits as well as many more because it is a subset of the first search, so it is necessary to qualify the search by excluding Levant using a minus sign ["Islamic State" -Levant] and because "Islamic State" will also throw up traditional usage of the phrase, it is necessary to screen for that as well eg ["Islamic State" -Levant Syria] PBS (talk) 19:12, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

---

Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State (Organisation) – Although I am loath to bring this subject up again, it has been 2 months [2] since the last requested move was closed with no consensus reached. I am renewing this discussion as the title Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant is being used less and less in favor of Islamic State, which the group formally named themselves on 29 June 2014.[3]

Contentious article names should follow Wikipedia:COMMONNAME. Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change

I have surveyed what terminology English Language WP:RS are using and have found that Islamic State has become increasingly common:

The Telegraph Five reasons why Islamic State will be hard to destroy

The Guardian We do not know where Islamic State hostages are being held, UK admits

The Independent Islamic State: Is prospect growing of US being drawn into another ground war in Iraq?

BBC: Turkey mulls 'buffer zone' against Islamic State

Al Jazeera: The genesis of the Islamic State group

Time: Diplomacy Is the Way To Beat the ‘Islamic State’

AFP Hagel: Islamic State 'beyond anything we've seen'

Reuters: Qatar regulates charities after Western concern over Islamic State funding

Washington Post: Iraqi commanders expect widening U.S. airstrikes against Islamic State positions

Wall Street Journal: Life Inside the Islamic State Home Base of Raqqa, Syria

Recently some of the most prominent holdovers have also officially adopted the name Islamic State:

Associated Press: Now we say ‘the Islamic State group’ instead of ISIL

New York Times: Reconsidering What to Call an Extremist Group

Based on the above, I argue that the balance of English-language reliable sources has shifted in favour of Islamic State and propose we follow this lead. I have added organisation in parenthesis to distinguish from Islamic state. It may be useful in future to split parts of the article into Islamic State (State) similar to the French wiki model. [4][5] I am not suggesting a change to our use of ISIS/ISIL as many of the above sources continue to use these abbreviations rather than the more accurate IS. Gazkthul (talk) 23:15, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• 'This topic has been discussed four times... since the Islamic State was declared at the end of June. As the same points tend to get repeated in these discussions, perhaps it would be an idea for editors to have a look at them before responding so that they are not gone over too much again. --P123ct1 (talk) 00:28, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Support/Oppose: Who supports the proposition that the name should be changed from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant to the Islamic State (organization)?

Support: The name "Islamic State" seems to be gaining favour in the media, although ISIS and ISIL are still being used. Perhaps some statistics could found showing the name usage now. (This was done in earlier discussions and media name usage will probably have changed again since the last time this topic was discussed.) --P123ct1 (talk) 08:41, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose It is still too early to decide on a name change, especially as there is growing pressure to split the article into two (see discussion at #94 here), one of which would have to be called "the Islamic state/State". --P123ct1 (talk) 15:11, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

This article here is a very good commentary on the name problem that is troubling not only WP editors but Western media generally. It is not very long. It isn't mentioned there, but apparently even the BBC are dithering about what to call this group now! --P123ct1 (talk) 08:54, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Stats for the month

• "Islamic State" gets "About 1,060,000 results"

"Islamic State" gets "About 12,200,000 results" in news

• "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" gets "About 41,500 results"

"Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" gets "About 16,200 results" in news

• "Islamic State of Iraq and Syria" gets "About 128,000 results"

"Islamic State of Iraq and Syria" gets "About 17,200 results"

Results retrieved via "cut and paste" from beneath Google's unhelpfully positioned drop down menu.

Never-the less my !vote is

• Oppose, as NPOV nonsense. For instance, a government such as the British government has the option to declare themselves as "Government". This particular institution is described as the UK government but, even if it were to declare authority, for example, over all peoples descended from Germanic tribes such a reference would still be unhelpful in an encyclopaedia. While the term "Islamic State" is not in as wide usage as the term "government" I personally think that there are NPOV issues in regard to ISIL/ISIS describing themselves in this way. I also think that "organisation" fails. There are many more issues involved than just that. I think it is fine for the article to present the group as claiming the name "Islamic State" and this is exactly what the article does.
  

Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:59, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Just to put you in the picture, Gregkaye, in nearly every discussion there has been on this, editors have been reminded about WP:COMMONNAME (which Gazkthul has quoted above), which means using the name most commonly used by WP:RS reliable sources, regardless of other considerations. I am not saying this is right or wrong, just passing it on. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:12, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Very true but with the name space Islamic state occupied the choice is between Islamic State (Organisation) (with Organisation in parenthesis) and Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.

WP:Use commonly recognizable names states: "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used" and, as well as mentioning WP:RS issues also mentions that "such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural". The numbers clearly support "Islamic State" but I am not convinced that "(Organisation)" provides a significantly more natural description than Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.

My argument is that the use of the words "Islamic State" naturally lead to the question, "of what?"

But then again I've just thought of somewhat similar situations regarding the names United States and the United Kingdom. I believe that, in the first case, the main reason why the "of America" has fallen out of currency is that the people of the United States only constitute about a third of the population of the Americas. In the second case reference is made, at least for the rest of today, to a specifically United Kingdom and with reference to a specific monarch.

"Islamic State" uses an Islamic terminology that is otherwise used to describe all things Islamic and applies it to a smaller subsection of Islamic people. The only parallel examples of this that I can think of is the application of Semitic terminology to the Jewish subsection of Semitic peoples within Anti-Semitic terminologies and the use of American terminologies to citizens of the United States. I have long disputed the validity, helpfulness and descriptive application of this type of linguistic approach. Such terminologies don't necessarily belong to individual groups and certainly not without good justification. (This is POV). Gregkaye ✍♪ 12:50, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Choosing the most appropriate name has proved very tricky for all sorts of reasons and there has never been real consensus. Have you tried looking at those links of earlier discussions! Good to get your view registered. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:32, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

TY. I've only really taken a serious look at Move request - 6 September 2014, currently on this page above. A lot of issues are mentioned with WP:Use commonly recognizable names definitely being an influential topic.

Another problem though is that an Islamic state is a type of government and thus a type of organisation. We aren't given much if any differentiation. Islamic State (Iraq and Levant) may still be questionable (at least according to arguments presented) but offers one alternate differentiation. (edited with additions) Gregkaye ✍♪ 00:49, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose A recent article by Adam Taylor[6] summarized things nicely for me in that he showed that the name has extremely fragmented use. "From the start, exactly what to call the extremist Islamist group that has taken over much of Syria and Iraq has been problematic. At first, many called it the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS). However, due to differences over how the name should be translated from the Arabic, some (including the U.S. government) referred to them as ISIL (the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant). To make matters more complicated, the group later announced that it should simply be called the "Islamic State" – a reference to the idea that the group was breaking down state borders to form a new caliphate. A number of media groups, including The Post, the Associated Press and, eventually, the New York Times, adopted this name, while others stuck with ISIS and ISIL." There has also bene a notable amount of media coverage on the simply fact that there are multiple names floating around.[7][8] This only becoming more complicated as the term "Daesh", which is prominent in Arabic is getting increased use in English.[9]. I also find the search method for concluding Islamic State as the highest hit count extremely problematic as all the contested titles contain those words--Labattblueboy (talk) 13:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

That's why I included a survey of the English Language media sources that have switched to the use of Islamic State to argue that it fits the criteria of WP:COMMONNAME. Gazkthul (talk) 00:37, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose – There is already an ongoing discussion above, and this ought be closed speedily. Regardless, I do not think it is worthwhile to change the name now per WP:TITLECHANGES, as this is simply a mire of too many names and too many disambiguation problems. RGloucester — ☎ 13:32, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - The article's title should not be "Islamic State" at all because it holds pejorative connotations against muslims and legitimate Islamic states. Possible names include Al-Baghdadi Caliphate Movement or some other more representative title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.217.255.4 (talk) 08:40, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - Often the media uses "the so called Islamic State" with good reason. They claim power over all muslims worldwide. They are neither Islamic (according to most religious and government leaders - Rouhani just hammered this point in a UN speech for example) or a State (no state will recognize them, fail Montevideo test). Calling your organization something crazy does not rename the organization. For example I can't start "The Catholic Church" and expect anyone to call my creation "The Catholic Church" Legacypac (talk) 18:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Comments

• Comment This source (used in the article) listing the UK proscribed terrorist organisations says "The UK does not recognise ISIL’s claims of a ‘restored’ Caliphate or a new Islamic State." I wonder if this has something to do the opposition to the name? If you do a search for the term "islamic state" in that document there's 17 other groups that in one way or other described as trying to establish an Islamic state.~Technophant (talk) 01:33, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

New name

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No clear consensus on a new article title has emerged during this conversion and two RMs have been proposed since this discussion was started. Some of the suggestions indicate that at lease some of those taking part in this discussion have not read the relevant Article Title policy as they are proposing and supporting names not supported by the Article Title policy -- PBS (talk) 19:37, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

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Hello there. Before changing the title is now out of fashion, I think we should discuss the new title to offer demand renaming. When we have reached a consensus, the application will be made. --Panam2014 (talk) 09:30, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

I propose Islamic State (organization) since it is still an organization. Moreover, one can also create an article for the caliphate but that's another discussion does not address at this time, to complete this discussion. Regards. --Panam2014 (talk) 09:30, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I would not agree with the concept that the Islamic State is an "organization", as it is such only to the extent of any other unrecognized state. The Islamic State is, in fact, an unrecognized political entity. I would suggest "Islamic State (entity)", or something along those lines. Perhaps even Islamic State (state); a perfectly legitimate phrasing. -- Director (talk) 11:50, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I have been thinking about this calmly for a while, and I saw the use of the Islamic State group which, in my informed opinion, is the correct name to use. Feel free to discuss. Worldedixor (talk) 13:43, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I support either "Islamic State (Caliphate)" or the "The Islamic State (Caliphate)". It is definitely not an "Organisation". The Islamic State is a Paramilitary / Terrorist group winch has declared a State in the form of a Caliphate. IJA (talk) 14:55, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Correct, it's a self-declared sovereign caliphate which is a form of "state", just as Islamic state states in the first sentence: "An Islamic state is a type of government". Could also say Islamic State (government) which would be more generic and clear for those who don't know what a Caliphate is. The definition of Caliphate is self-referential saying it is an Islamic state. -- GreenC 15:57, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

We shouldn't use "government", "organization", or "group". This is a self-proclaimed, unrecognized state. -- Director (talk) 16:21, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Is self-declared state an issue? There are dozens of micro-nations which are self-declared Empires, Duchys, Republics etc... not recognized by anyone. Or, is ISIS so evil that we have to go out of our way to make sure everyone knows Wikipedia doesn't support it while more benign self-declared states like Grand Duchy of Flandrensis are acceptable without disambiguation. -- GreenC 16:41, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the term group is appropriate because it is also an entity, you wouldn't refer to Azawad or the Donetsk People's Republic as a "group". IJA (talk) 16:45, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Director has a point but I agree with GreenC. There was an American that recently declared himself King of the Kingdom of North Sudan by placing a flag over Bir Tawil. Does that make his kingdom an unrecognized kingdom? Of course not. IS is no different. Worldedixor (talk) 16:52, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Another thought is rename Islamic state to Islamic state (government) would free up Islamic State for the actual state. -- GreenC 17:35, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose To rename to Islamic State. Hi. It is not a State but a very special state. Il am not agress with you. --Panam2014 (talk) 17:42, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
• Strongly Support If they changed their name then we shoud also refer to them the same. in addition, all media outlets are also already using the new name. --Midrashah (talk) 17:51, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
  • My support is in any form of change : "Islamic state"/"Islamic State (organization)" etc. --Midrashah (talk) 17:55, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Hello. This is not enough because when you have homonyms, they are called in the same way by sources and the type of government is called Islamic State. We can name this article The Islamic State. --Panam2014 (talk) 17:57, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

• Another point: They are called The Islamic State so how about titling the article as such with the word The distinguishing it from other articles? --Midrashah (talk) 18:03, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Strongly Support It is a good solution because it is the unique subject called The Islamic State. Regards. --Panam2014 (talk) 18:13, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

• Al Salam Alaikum. I don't think this is the right form to do it... But when someone does create the correct request, I will SUPPORT Midrashah and Panam2014 and add my support to The Islamic State as an article title and the Islamic State in the rest of the article. Worldedixor (talk) 18:27, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

While the ideas with "organization" are reasonable, I have a new suggestion that gives a bit more context: Islamic State insurgency.--Pharos (talk) 18:31, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

• This is just a discussion not a vote. No one's counting and no one has proposed any particular solution just exploring ideas. -- GreenC 18:36, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

• That's all good, and since this name change has been running in circles for a while, I just felt that I'd encourage a consensus, even though, I personally prefer the addition of group. However, in the best interest of Wikipedia, we can be flexible to we can reach logical consensus. Worldedixor (talk) 18:41, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

This one is going to be controversial and difficult to reach consensus. There are some passionate voters and this is a high-profile article. I'm prepared for a few weeks of RfCs and the like it won't be solved anytime soon. The first thing is some discussion on a good starting point and where the arguments are. When a formal proposal is put forward it should include things like Google counts to establish most common name, a summary of main arguments and proposals, relevant policy and guidelines, etc.. then it needs to be advertised and bring in as many people as possible and let it run for 3 weeks or more. If no consensus then we repeat and escalate. -- GreenC 19:00, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

The majority of sources call it Islamic State, and that is what it's actually called, there's no debate on this fact. The problem remains the article Islamic state about the form of government is in the same name space. That can be renamed to Islamic state (government) or similar which is standard. Calling it The Islamic State kind of works but it's non-standard because the group doesn't use "The" and most sources don't use "The" (in capital proper-noun form). See earlier comment above about micro-nation names on Wikipedia, we don't discriminate against a state just because it's not formally recognized or happens to do evil deeds. -- GreenC 19:00, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

An RfC was closed today with no consensus, another RfC was started but closed because of the RfC closed today, and now we have this which is not an RfC. User:Panam2014 I don't understand why you did this, but please notify everyone who !voted in the RfC that was closed today. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 19:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

GreenC: When you say the "group", do you mean ISIS? If so, then a friendly correction: ISIS now call themselves "the Islamic State" with the "the". Still, I am not sure what works in an RFC, is it what ISIS call themselves? is it "facts" as you correctly pointed out? or is it consensus?... Based on my several years of experience on Wikipedia, I believe it is consensus, even when it repeatedly ends up in "running in circles" and "no consensus". Worldedixor (talk) 19:17, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi.It is not a RfC but a pre-RfC. We could name the article Islamic State (Iraq and Levant) or Islamic State (Iraq and Syria). Regards. --Panam2014 (talk) 19:29, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

A pre-RFC makes sense, and to help you avoid running in circles as before, I will state that I will oppose what you proposed just now. In my opinion, this would be redundant and wrong as ISIL already removed "Iraq and Levant" from their name, and "Iraq and Syria" was a bad translation, and a common mistake, from the start. Worldedixor (talk) 19:39, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Wait a sec.. the "s" is not capitalized in the title of the Islamic state article. If I'm not mistaken, Wikipedia can have two articles of the same title if they're capitalized differently? -- Director (talk) 20:21, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Good question, Director. Let me find out if this is even allowed or at least there is a precedent. \Worldedixor (talk) 20:44, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

yes, Director, it appears to be permitted. Worldedixor (talk) 20:46, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, they can coexist when one is lowercase letters and the other majuscule letters. Sinon for me even if they have removed "Iraq and the Levant" from their name, they are still operating in Iraq and the Levant as before, so when you put in parenthesis, that does not mean it's their name, but rather that we should not confuse the Iraq and Syria group and historical Islamic state. --Panam2014 (talk) 20:51, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I disagree Panam2014. The now old references to "Iraq and the Levant" must be included in the article but it would be confusing in the encyclopedia. Worldedixor (talk) 21:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Hello. I said that the group still claims Iraq and Syria but changed its name. Parentheses must show areas "of the group operation. Otherwise, if you're for, I agree to Islamic State not to be confused with Islamic state. --Panam2014 (talk) 21:33, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

One thing to consider. ISIS is a more appealing sound in speech than ISIL or just IS as it is easily recognized and understood. In text, it also looks better than IS. So expect ISIS to be used for a long time. Worldedixor (talk) 22:01, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Well great. Then I support a move simply to "Islamic State" over redirect (provided its the most common in sources of course, as usual). {{Distinguish}} templates would of course be essential. -- Director (talk) 05:45, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

I would support Islamic State. There are many articles where upper and lower case versions co-exist at the same time. -- GreenC 14:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Midrashah, Panam2014 and Worldedixor. The name of the article should be The Islamic State, as this is how the official Arabic name of the group translates into English, and it should be called the Islamic State in the article. Am I right, Worldedixor, that the Arabic language makes no distinction between "the" and "The"? (See my question here to a user on this page, [10].) --P123ct1 (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

It is more complicated than that but, to give as simple an answer as I can, no, there are no such things as capital letters in Arabic. Worldedixor (talk) 20:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I rather suspected it. That clears up a point that has bothered me for quite a while! --P123ct1 (talk) 20:30, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Can anyone request the move? or move it by himself? --Midrashah (talk) 15:42, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

For me, you could move. Regards. Midrashah. --Panam2014 (talk) 16:18, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't able to move. The page The Islamic State is already redirected here, and I don't know how to re-redirect the opposite way. I think we need the help of an admin. --Midrashah (talk) 19:38, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

For a move of this page, which seems very likely to be challenged, you should formally request a move and establish a consensus after a discussion of more than a few days. Three days ago this was "not an RfC but a pre-RfC", when did that change? Huon (talk) 20:24, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose "The Islamic State" in favor of "Islamic State". The definitive article is most inappropriate, and we can have a different article through capitalizing "State". -- Director (talk) 19:43, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Question: How is it in Arabic? Is it "The Islamic State" with "the" or without? caus in the opening of the article the translit show: الدولة الإسلامية‎ ad-Dawlah al-ʾIslāmiyyah. I don't speak arabic but I do know that "a-" and "al-" mean "the" in Arabic....? --Midrashah (talk) 22:25, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't really matter at all: the issue doesn't pertain in any way to naming policy.. There shouldn't be any definitive article there, its just unwarranted. -- Director (talk) 00:36, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Do we include a discussion of the American group currently being organized with female warriors to travel through Syria and Iraq and kill as many ISIL members as possible. The reason for the women warriors is to insure that the executed ISIL members will not receive any of the benefits of martyrdom such as 72 virgins, etc.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drbigd (talk • contribs) 04:42, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Unofficial vote:

Supporters of "The Islamic State"

• Support --Midrashah (talk) 19:50, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
• Strongly Support The name of the organization is (الدولة الإسلامية‎) ad-Dawlah l-ʾIslāmiyyah not (دولة الإسلامية) Dawlah l-ʾIslāmiyyah but the name of the Nusra Front is (جبهة النصرة) Jabhat an-Nuṣrah not ad-Jabhat an-Nuṣrah (الجبه النصرة). Regards. --Panam2014 (talk) 08:07, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
• Weak support More sources are starting to use Islamic State at this point. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 01:36, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Er, you just voted for "The Islamic State", not "Islamic State". I agree that sources are using "Islamic State". They are not using "The Islamic State" with a capitalised definite article. See the other section below. RGloucester — ☎ 01:52, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I just took a look at it agian, and you're right. The (Capital) and (non-capital) part confused me, so I just said "Weak support" right here. I'll change my vote. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 02:50, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support The Islamic State is a revolutionary front. Like The Red Guard. However The Weather Underground is titled Weather Underground in wikipedia.. --User:Mr. Booger

Supporters of "Islamic State" (Capital)

• Support. Why "The"?? -- Director (talk) 00:37, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Why "The"?? Do you speak Arabic? Do you think that calling Al-Qaeda just Qaeda is correct? Do you say "boy went to school" or "I want book"?... I explained the importance of the "the" in a previous discussion above. Feel free to refer to it. Worldedixor (talk) 05:18, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

In English, "the United States" or "the United Kingdom" is the correct way to write the names of those countries in a sentence, yet the articles are "United States" and "United Kingdom", that's because we don't use the definitive article unless explicitly mandated by WP:THE. Further: this is the English-language Wikipedia, and the correct spelling in Arabic has absolutely no bearing on the issue at hand. -- Director (talk) 08:21, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

But the article in Arabic wikipedia is: "الدولة الإسلامية في العراق والشام" - "The Islamic State in...", Whereas in English "United States" in English wikipedia is without "the". So if you look each to its original language you can tell how it is titled on wikipedia. --Midrashah (talk) 09:02, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

What other Wikipedias do isn't relevant here, we have our own policies and guidelines. And WP:COMMONNAME applies here - the most common name used in English language reliable sources. Dougweller (talk) 09:35, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Would editors please read the previous discussions on the Talk page about what this article should be called? The same points are being repeated over and over again. Dougweller has referred more than once to WP:COMMONNAME - that the name should be the one most commonly used in by reliable sources - there was a long discussion about this on another thread, please refer to it.[11]. If we have to abide by WP:COMMONNAME, we should concentrate on finding out what that is. Another look at reliable sources and current usage is the only line of inquiry we should pursue now. --P123ct1 (talk) 13:42, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I assumed "Islamic State" was the COMMONNAME? -- Director (talk) 14:57, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I think it is, but others have disagreed. I will note that "Islamic State" is used in the media at times with no preceding "the" -- thus Reuters[12] "It was the Syrian army's last foothold in an area otherwise controlled by Islamic State, which has seized large areas of Syria and Iraq." Dougweller (talk) 15:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Articles with Capital "The": The beatles, The Who, Al-Qaeda. I'm sure many articles in the newspapers refer to "(the) Beatles", for example. However, since The Beatles is its official name the article is named as such. --Midrashah (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

"The" is used in accordance with WP:THE. Those titles warrant "The", this one does not.. -- Director (talk) 00:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I was giving examples exaclly from WP:THE article. You haven't given any reason why in this case there is no justification for "The". Merely stating that isn't good enough... --Midrashah (talk) 11:47, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes those examples use "The" in accordance with requirements at WP:THE. How do you justify using "The" here? -- Director (talk) 21:12, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

It's the official name The Islamic State. The WP:THE states: "These conditions are sometimes met if the page name is:...*the official or commonly used name or nickname of a group, sports team or company (e.g., The Beatles, The Invincibles, The Hershey Company), or *another official or commonly used proper name (e.g., The Hague, The Crown). --Midrashah (talk) 22:30, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

• Still needs disambiguation, but I support dropping the definite article. Nonsense about Arabic language trivialities isn't helpful here. This encyclopaedia is written in English, and it would be very unusual to have a capitalised "the" in this context. Most media sources use "Islamic State" without the definite article capitalised. "Al-Qaeda" is a fundamentally different matter, as that is not translated, but transliterated. As this name, unlike that one, is translated, it must adhere to English language conventions. RGloucester — ☎ 22:34, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

The Beatles adhere to English language conventions... still many news papers refer to them as "(the) Beatles"...? --Midrashah (talk) 22:40, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

That's an exception (a proper name that relies on the "the" to convey meaning), and one that doesn't apply here. Unless you'd like us to retitle United States as The United States, of course. RGloucester — ☎ 22:53, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

The Islamic State also relies on the "the" to convey meaning - It's their official name, so this is what they wanted to convey to people. However, Practically speaking to be specific as to what should be done with the title of the article, I think we all exhausted all arguments here, so I think those two options should be put to a real vote. I wouldn't know how to open a real vote process or the procedures, and the article clearly needs a new title. Can anybody help? --Midrashah (talk) 23:21, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

The definite article with respect to the "Islamic State" doesn't convey any meaning whatsoever. It is only there as a function of the English language, which requires that nouns have articles. In reference to such a thing as "The Beetles", the "the" conveys meaning that "Beetles" does not. This meaning is simple, in that it implies a "a specific group of people called 'The Beetles', as opposed to beetles generally". With regard to the Islamic State, this is not the case. It already conveys the meaning that it is a specific group of people (state, organisation) through capitalisation of the word "state", which differentiates it from Islamic states generally. RGloucester — ☎ 23:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

It is not merely a function of English, since this is part of their official name. Capital "Islamic State" is the one who is merely a fuction of English, which technically differs it from lower-case "Islamic state", but does not reflect the broader meaning of 'The Islamic State a specific state that implemnts the idea of the general term (lower case) "Islamic state"...--Midrashah (talk) 17:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support "Islamic State" (Capital), and let all redirects point to the disambiguation page. Reason: "On 29 June 2014, ISIS was renamed the Islamic State (IS)." [13] [14] -- Brangifer (talk) 23:41, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support "Islamic State", and there are ways of disambiguating, as Dougweller has said before. I don't think there is any point in discussing what the media call other groups, it really is irrelevant, we should concentrate on what the media call this particular group now! I did a straw poll some time ago, and it is clear the media are now calling the group "the Islamic State" (sometimes along with "ISIS/ISIL" and never "The Islamic State" except at the beginning of sentences) or "Islamic State", as in Dougweller's example above. I think there was even a Guardian article that started the sentence with "Islamic State". So as long as it can be established that it complies with WP:COMMONNAME, i.e. current media usage, I vote for "Islamic State". This was what I found earlier this month (see discussion at [15]):

I googled the following to see what names they have been using in the past seven days or so —

The Times[16], The Telegraph[17], The Guardian[18], The Independent[19], The Economist[20], The Spectator, Financial Times[21], The New York Times, The Washington Post[22], The Wall Street Journal[23], TIME, Al-Ahram (Egypt), Middle East Eye, BBC News[24], CNN, NBC, Aljazeera, Al Arabiya, Reuters, Associated Press and Agence France-Presse

— and with the exception of The New York Times and Al Arabiya, they are all now calling ISIS either "Islamic State" or "the Islamic State", with a few of them using the new name and "ISIS".

P123ct1 (talk) 15:27, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I remove my objection to (Capital) Islamic State. I still think that "The Islamic State"" is better but the article needs a new title and (Capital) 'Islamic State is better than nothing. --Midrashah (talk) 15:43, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

A lot of people use ISIS which apparently stands for Islamic State of Iraq and Syria in the English language, so that can also be argued to be the "common name". However, I am more neutral regarding this. Also keep in mind that this group changes their name quite a lot. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 03:01, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support move to Islamic State. This article is the primary meaning of Islamic State so disambiguation is unnecessary, the majority of news sources are using Islamic State, and Islamic State is the official name. Chessrat (talk) 15:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Supporters of "Islamic state" (non-capital)

I don't think anyone supports this variant, the section seems redundant. It wouldn't correspond to sources and the title is already taken by "Islamic state".. -- Director (talk) 00:38, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Not only that, but (a) "Islamic state" means any Islamic state and (b) the Arabic title is "the Islamic State". --P123ct1 (talk) 15:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Supporters of "Islamic State insurgency"

• Support as this both uses their common name and disambiguates the general Islamic state concept in a more meaningful and obvious way than just playing with capitalization.--Pharos (talk) 02:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

This article should be about the organisation (state), not the conflict or insurgency. Hence, I strongly oppose this proposal. RGloucester — ☎ 15:44, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose, per RGloucester. -- Director (talk) 19:30, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Others

Islamic State (IS)

• Another Idea: How about Islamic State (IS), both Capital and the acronyms of it. --93.173.188.66 (talk) 18:00, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Nice idea, but if you look at other articles for example, we don't really put the acronyms in the titles. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 08:18, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Slovenia is not supplying weapons

Please remove Slovenia from list of countries providing weapons. Slovenia is not helping by military means. It was listed on the list of countries in coalition against IS without even being informed.

Sources: http://www.sta.si/en/vest.php?s=a&id=2054912 http://www.noodls.com/view/907F12D3539A0A4E278BE6F2EE86B49EBCD99185?9269xxx1411980751 http://www.24ur.com/novice/slovenija/pahor-zgladil-nesporazum-glede-uvrstitve-slovenije-na-seznam-koalicije-drzav-proti-is.html http://www.siol.net/novice/slovenija/2014/09/mzz.aspx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.103.141.64 (talk) 11:43, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Deleted the flag and bad ref. Thanks for the heads up. Legacypac (talk) 14:31, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

New section: "Criticism of the Islamic State"

I have opened a new section called "Criticism of the Islamic State", as it seemed time for one after all the recent outspoken criticisms from various governments and the Muslim world. I have moved into it some text from other parts of the article. Please feel free to change the title or move it to a different position in the TOC, as I don't think either are ideal but couldn't think of better alternatives. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:36, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

An editor has already removed the subsections I put in, "From the Muslim community" and "From the non-Muslim world", on the grounds that this is divisive - which is fine - but it seemed only logical to me to have the criticisms under those separate headings. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:47, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I felt free not to divide the world between 'us' and 'others'. Thank you. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 11:28, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Is there a better way to handle the information in that section in an orderly way? Any ideas are welcome. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:41, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

The edits to restore any doubt about the applicability of the name "Islamic State" are not constructive. Calling an organization "Islamic State" is incredibly inappropriate: 1. Very offensive to the vast majority of Muslims world wide 2. Not the name used by any known State actor (see list above) 3. Is like naming an organization "The Government" or "Republic" or "Kingdom" with no geographical or ethnic context. It is totally illogical. 4. Many people feel that the organization is neither Islamic or a State and definately not both. 5. The vast majority of media sources qualify the term - and so should we. 6. Multiple move requests to "Islamic State" for the article have failed, yet people keep changing the text. Legacypac (talk) 12:53, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Putting this important information that no nation recognizes the name they want to use deep down in the article is not NPOV, it is hiding the facts. It belongs in the Lead where I inserted it before, perhaps with more detail in a section of the article. Legacypac (talk) 13:22, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I did voice misgivings about the position of the new section, partly for that reason. I think a sentence or two in the Lead about the name dispute and dispute over the legitimacy of the Islamic State/caliphate (which is really what the name dispute is about) and more detail on it in "Criticism of the Islamic State" placed more prominently in the TOC - though how that can be done without upsetting the flow of the article I can't see at the moment. Perhaps worked into the "Names" section, which is right at the beginning? The most important thing is that whatever is said about this must be said neutrally, or it will flout WP:NPOV, one of the WP:FIVEPILLARS which are the foundation on which WP is built. --P123ct1 (talk) 13:45, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I put a new sentence, the last in the lead, to cover it, immediately after the sentence about the group renaming itself. It is factual, not POV, and fits with the fact they picked a new name. Their chosen name is a declaration of war on the rest of the muslim world, not some trivial thing Wikipedia should just swallow without presenting that 99% of the world rejects it.Legacypac (talk) 13:56, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

WD P123ct1 and Legacypac for work on this. Digression: I view the content with referral to governmental and religious sources to have a far higher moral standing than the actions of groups such as reuters that for some inexplicable reason seem to have chosen to use the term "Islamic State" in virtual exclusion to all others. I find it incomprehensible, an example of "RS" POV? Gregkaye ✍♪ 14:04, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps they took the view, "This is what they call themselves now. We should as well, and not get into the politics of it." Seems reasonable. --P123ct1 (talk) 16:31, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

No I think the media is shortening a long name they don't understand to save ink. That and pure laziness. And like another editor suggested, maybe protect their reporters from being separated from their heads. If this group called itself "The Catholic Church" and the leader the "Pope" would Wikipedia use those name? Legacypac (talk) 16:41, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac I agree with you, it should not be trivialised. My overriding concern is WP:NPOV, and if it makes it look as if I minimise some things, that is unintentional. We had a very similar discussion about using the word "terrorist" in the Lead some time ago. It is not what is said, it is how it is said that counts. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:23, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I heard English/American speakers (for example Obama and several analysts) pronounce the IS/ISIL/ISIS acronym as 'eye sa' or 'eye saw', why is that? Bever (talk) 16:25, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I've not heard that yet (but I am a native english speaker and it might sound different to your ears). World leaders are saying ISIL almost exclusively pronounced 'eye sole' or pronounced out 'eye es eye el'. But you gotta see this clip from Fallon for the correct pronunciation. Legacypac (talk) 17:04, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive edits

User:Atifabbasi8 has first brought a money unit from an unreliable source and without sources invented two 'official languages' and later when I removed the so-called official languages has come back to revert that and passing by to remove a citation needed tag without any explanation. Therefore they have made use of not reliable sources, addition without sources, removal of a tag without explanation and a violation of the 1RR rule. Which admin is going to warn them and who is going to revert their disruptive edits? Thanks. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 18:42, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I wonder how long Jihadi John and other fighters will be willing to fight if their pay comes in ISIL dinars? I reverted it Legacypac (talk) 20:10, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Now this https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant&diff=628242520&oldid=628242261 edit is inappropriate, needs to be reverted. Not discussed on the talk page. Legacypac (talk) 20:10, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Lol! To quote an admin: "The beauty of Wikipedia is that anyone can edit it. The tragedy of Wikipedia is that anyone can edit it." --P123ct1 (talk) 21:32, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Gave editor a 1RR block. Dougweller (talk) 11:32, 5 October 2014 (UTC)