Talk:Islamic State/Archive 5

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The name Islamic State

All the major newspapers call it now "Islamic State": See Google News for Islamic State --2A01:E35:8B2F:7630:A1C3:E987:D9F:79D3 (talk) 18:27, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree. We need to start a new discussion on the move to rename. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 18:31, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

The decision is urgent. The obvious confusion in this article is making Wikipedia look very foolish, with one box saying Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and another saying Islamic State with caliphate (the latest revert has caused this), and with some of the article calling ISIS ISIS and later parts calling it ISIS and/or the Islamic State. --P123ct1 (talk) 20:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I smell a sock-puppet. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

What do you mean? Supersaiyen312 (talk) 22:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Just to point out, the Arabic version of Wikipedia is still calling it the "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". And so is the Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and Russian versions still calling it "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". On the other hand, the German and French versions have switched to "Islamic State". The majority of other inter-wikis seems the be calling it "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". Supersaiyen312 (talk) 21:44, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Good sleuthing. All I can say is that until it is decided what to call it, the article must remain consistent. People coming in and half-changing it are not helping Wikipedia's reputation. There are thousands of people looking at this article every day (see statistics under "Page information" in the left-hand column here) and we have to remember this. --P123ct1 (talk) 22:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

We shouldn't pay attention to what other Wikipedias do. We follow the sources. Others may have different ways of working. Dougweller (talk) 17:03, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Dougweller. It's the media's and general public's choice of name that matters, not other Wikipedias. The other Wikis should use the name that is used by reliable sources. The BBC, The Mirror and plenty of other media agencies refers to them as the Islamic State. --92.232.49.38 (talk) 19:00, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

1) They call themselves the Islamic State now. I also think the name should be changed. 2) As for those Wikipedias, just make a redirect from The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant Shimmy (talk) 02:49, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 8 August 2014

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Clear consensus against simply "Islamic State". There were plenty of alternatives also suggested but none of them came close to getting any sort of agreement. Jenks24 (talk) 10:35, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

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Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State – The last completed move request is at[1] and was closed as no consensus. It is now over a month since that move request was raised people are making changes to the article that don't reflect the article title. Many sources still use the current name[2] (although some of those use the new name but mention an old name) but many others use just "Islamic State".[3] We need to come to some sort of decision even if it is to keep the current name. Please note that "The Islamic State" would need clear consensus among those reliable sources that use "Islamic State" and that translation issues do not apply, we go by what the English sources use. Dougweller (talk) 13:48, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Note to anyone closing this. The discussion started here on the 8th but due to something I did wrong with the template the RfC wasn't procedurally opened until today. Dougweller (talk) 16:56, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Support

• Islamic State, without "the", for reasons set out below. --P123ct1 (talk) 13:11, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support Islamic State without the "The". Most sources I've seen just use "Islamic State". I'm fine w/"The Islamic State" or "Islamic State (organization)" as a compromise, but it's not my #1 choice. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 10:26, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Oppose

• Keep as is "The Islamic State" and "Islamic State" should redirect to caliphate or islamic state -- 65.94.169.222 (talk) 05:27, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
• Keep the current name. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 16:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
• oppose; per 65.94.169.222, for now "Islamic state" has the far more common meaning of an Islamic state, whether 'state' is capitalised or not; the additional 'of Iraq and the Levant' is probably the best way to disambiguate it. If the group's still around and still has the same name in a few months then it might be the primary topic, but it's unclear how likely that is.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 16:23, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
• Strong oppose move to Islamic State, since treating this possible transient political grouping as the primary meaning is very problematic, other titles might be worth considering, but inclined to leave it at the status quo until some issues become clearer. PatGallacher (talk) 21:10, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
• Keep as is What something is, and what that thing bombastically claims to be, can be different things. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:39, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
• Keep at current name - The news media varies widely in what they call this entity, but US diplomats and POTUS continue to refer to it as ISIL (as of the Secretary of Defence's comments at a media call in Australia yesterday). Not common as "Islamic State" yet. Per JohnBlackburne, let's see if it has changed in a couple of months time. Monthly RM's aren't helping. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 03:07, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
• Keep the current name. The official name is irrelevant. We frequently give articles names that are (a) not official or formal and/or (b) precisely correct only for one period of time. Srnec (talk) 08:55, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Alternatives

• Support "The Islamic State": I know you are not keen on quibbles about the Arabic, Dougweller, but for what it is worth, the title in Arabic shows a "the" in the script. (I could demonstrate if needed.) So I am for "The Islamic State." --P123ct1 (talk) 10:09, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support "Islamic State (organization)" because I think it's a good compromise to rename this article with the new official name of the organization ("Islamic State", "al-Dawlah al-ʾIslāmiyyah" in romanized Arabic) without create a confusion with Islamic state. In Google News we find 4,560 results for "Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant" 6,770 results for "Islamic State in Iraq and Syria" and 7,700,000 results for "Islamic State". The new reliable sources (not only from US) use "Islamic State", Al Jazeera, The Time of India, The Jakarta Post, I24 News, Washington Post, The Guardian, The Wall Street Journal, Huffington Post, USA Today, Los Angeles Time, Fox News, Reuters, Ria Novosti, The Independent. --Monsieur Fou (talk) 22:14, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Several of those are AP wire service stories, so there are not really 14 different sources here. If you want to follow AP, I expect that they will announce something official on their site soon. We could wait until then. Clodhopper Deluxe (talk) 03:38, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• Move to ISIS, per CNN, Fox News, New York Times, CBS News. New York Daily News, Times of London and Huffington Post. Those are all headlines published in the last 24 hours. Clodhopper Deluxe (talk) 09:10, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support move to Islamic State (organization) as per Monsieur Fou as a good compromise between article confusion and current "not so accurate" article name. ~Technophant (talk) 23:06, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
• How about Islamic State (insurgent group)? That makes it more specific. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:24, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

I think "insurgent group" is too narrow to speak about IS, the group has territorial claims (in Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan...) and controls de facto a large part of Iraq and Syria. In these territories IS aren't only a insurgent group but it's an unrecognized state with their laws and their administration. Both, unrecognized state and insurgent group are two type of organization, that's why I consider "organization" as more appropriate term. The term "organization" can cover different acceptations. An insurgency is an armed rebellion against a constituted authority. That implies a local perspective and a clearly identified authority, but IS's aim is not local but global and their fighters come from all around the world. Their leader proclaimed himself "Caliph of Islam", "Commander of the Believer" and order to all muslims in the world to obey him. In Syria IS fought Al Qaeda and challenges their role in global jihadism (They have recently absorbed Al-Nusra Front). Sorry for my frenchified English, I learned it at school, but I don't practice it anymore today.--Monsieur Fou (talk) 14:33, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there is any need for us to agonise over it; as Dougweller said, there are ways of disambiguating a plain "Islamic State" or "The Islamic State." --P123ct1 (talk) 22:27, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• Islamic State (insurgent group) - ISIS is seen as a terrorist group by (if not all) the most of rest of the world. Using just Islamic State to refer them will be bit controversial and confusing. Because, some legitimate states like Pakistan and Iran call themselves as Islamic State. ISIS is most commonly known name for this terrorist group, although they (as well as their leader) can not settle for a name, they now call themselves as the Islamic State, which I (as a Muslim) and most other Muslims, as well as all other sovereign body refuse to recognize. I know, my POV might affect my editorial sense, but no one is now able to be completely objective about ISIS; still I am trying to be as much neutral as possible. Islamic State (terrorist group) could have been the best name, but probably it is not pure NPOV. So, I would vote for moving to, Islamic State (insurgent group). --» nafSadh did say 05:49, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• How about Islamic State (formerly Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant)? That is neutral but clear. That would suffice until the name of this group stabilises, and distinguishes itself from "Islamic State" as other countries call themselves, as you say. I am not clear if this discussion has been closed. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:27, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

It'll be OK for me if contributors who opposes accept it as a compromise to use the official name (Islamic State) AND keep the outdated name. Another form could be Islamic State (formerly ISIL or ISIS) because some contributors (Clodhopper Deluxe) want to move to ISIS and some other prefer the acronym ISIL.--Monsieur Fou (talk) 16:25, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

Sorry, I didn't follow the previous discussion and am confused by the wording of this one. Do you propose renaming Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant to The Islamic State? The article's lead now begins: "The Islamic State (IS) … also known as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL or ISIS)." All other things being equal, if The Islamic State is the group's official name, renaming our article would make sense. However, all other things are not equal. Last night at the White House, delivering a 1,332-word prepared statement explaining authorization of two operations in Iraq—targeted airstrikes and humanitarian airdrops—President Obama referred eight times to "the terrorist group ISIL" but not once to The Islamic State. Have the preponderance of reliable sources switched to The Islamic State? If you could somehow demonstrate that, your proposal would carry more weight. As is, it seems premature. Since POTUS hasn't adopted the change, we probably ought to wait until the sand stops shifting. JohnValeron (talk) 17:35, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Since the US Government called it ISIL when most of the world was calling it ISIS and now are calling it IS, it could be a long wait. (For non-Americans: see the Wiki article POTUS for what this is.) --P123ct1 (talk) 20:04, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Until a decision is made, the article ought to be consistent. How acceptable is it to have one name in the first infobox and another name in the second one? And how acceptable is it to hive off some of the group's former names - still very widely used, especially DAESH, its common name in the region - into a small-print note at the end of the article (the latest edit)? --P123ct1 (talk) 20:23, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

This is what I am trying to settle. And I am definitely not suggesting "The Islamic State" as an alternative, the alternative suggested is "Islamic State". POTUS isn't the determining factor here. Dougweller (talk) 21:05, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

A STABLE temporary fix is needed in the meantime for the Lead and the boxes. There have been too many back and forth reverts, leaving the article contradicting itself each time. Not good for Wikipedia's image. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:34, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Between "ISIL" and "ISIS", the U.S. chooses to use "ISIL". People also commonly say "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" but then abbreviate it to "ISIS". I think it is time to rename it to "Islamic State" as more reliable sources are starting to use it but keep in mind that this group also changes their name alot. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 07:47, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

As for "The Islamic State", the issue is WP:Commonname which is clear about this:"it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." And so far no one has come up with any arguments based on sources. Dougweller (talk) 10:58, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Apologies, I overlooked WP:Commonname. On other pages about name changes, people have drawn up useful statistics about media usage. I don't know how that is done, but that would be the best way to find out which version is most frequently used now. --P123ct1 (talk) 12:36, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

What do you think about "Islamic State (organization)"? It's the true name without ambiguity with islamic state and it's OK with the reliable sources that use "Islamic State". In the French version we have switched to fr:État islamique (organisation).--Monsieur Fou (talk) 22:21, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

See Google news for Islamic State. All the major newspaper use now "Islamic State". There is only 4,560 results for "Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant", 6,770 results for "Islamic State in Iraq and Syria", but 7,700,000 results for "Islamic State".--Monsieur Fou (talk) 09:47, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I googled the following to see what names they have been using in the past seven days or so —

The Times[4], The Telegraph[5], The Guardian[6], The Independent[7], The Economist[8], The Spectator, Financial Times[9], The New York Times, The Washington Post[10], The Wall Street Journal[11], TIME, Al-Ahram (Egypt), Middle East Eye, BBC News[12], CNN, NBC, Aljazeera, Al Arabiya, Reuters, Associated Press and Agence France-Presse

— and with the exception of The New York Times and Al Arabiya, they are all now calling ISIS either "Islamic State" or "the Islamic State", with a few of them using the new name and "ISIS". I can provide links if required, though they are easy to google. (None of them call it "The Islamic State", unless at the beginning of a sentence.) That is a big change from only three weeks ago, when most were mainly using "ISIS". I therefore think Islamic State (IS), without "the", should be the new title. --P123ct1 (talk) 12:48, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Nope. We already have that one. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 12:54, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

No, that's a different article. At the moment we actually do have a redirect Islamic State which redirects to Islamic state, but we can fix that. We've discussed this above. We have ways of disambiguating. Dougweller (talk) 13:00, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Search "The Islamic State". You will find less entries but more used to describe this terrorist organization. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 13:07, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Discard anything where 'The' is the first word of a sentence. Although today's Guardian article starts a sentence with just "Islamic State".[13] Then remove any where 'the' isn't the first word and isn't in upper case. It's really not that easy to search. Dougweller (talk) 15:22, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

The BBC suddenly started using "Islamic State" only very recently. Probably because it distances the public perception that those operating in Iraq are the same as those operating in Syria. The BBC takes a Recdep approach to such changes: what change? It never happened, we always called it that. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:11, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

The official name is Islamic State, all other articles about an organization are named with their official name. For example, the article The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isn't named Mormon Church.--Monsieur Fou (talk) 16:41, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

• Different media organizations are using different names for IS. even Obama used to call it ISIL and now he uses Isis. as no common name exist. Wikipedia should use the right name and call it Islamic State (IS) 3bdulelah (talk) 20:16, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

The right name is the/The Islamic State, not Islamic State - see below for explanation. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:39, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• We use the name used by most reliable English sources. Dougweller (talk) 20:29, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

@Clodhopper Deluxe:Headlines are not written by the journalist who wrote the story. Your first link[14] says "He said the step was taken to defend U.S. personnel in the city of Irbil and protect religious minorities facing what he called a "potential act of genocide" from the Islamic State, the extremist group most recently known as the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)." So it uses "Islamic State" making it clear it was ISIS. Your link to the Huffington Post[15] also calls it the "Islamic State". So does your Fox News link[16] "Obama announced action against the Islamic State". Dougweller (talk) 20:37, 10 August 201 4 (UTC)

• I'm sure more people read the headlines than the fine print. Clodhopper Deluxe (talk) 03:49, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I almost wish IS had hired an English speaking publicist or marketing specialist to help the English speaking world understand what the proper name to call the group is. This would have saved us Wikipedians and world a lot of confusion. In business speak this is called rebranding. 21:03, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

They really don't need to. The translation of the formal Arabic name for the group is "the Islamic State". If you compare the Arabic script, you can see there is a clear difference in the Arabic for "Islamic state" دولة اسلامية and "the Islamic State" الدولة الإسلامية Compare this second one to the Arabic script in the first line of the Lead (which is its official name in Arabic) - it is the same. Arabic script reads from right to left, and I believe the two extra strokes to the far right in the second one indicate "al", which is "the" in English. Interesting, but irrelevant, as we have to settle for the name most commonly used by reliable sources. --P123ct1 (talk) 22:24, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

P123ct1, well maybe not now but when we had the debate whether to call it Islamic State in/of Iraq and Syria/Levant/Sham/Shaam (ISIS or ISIL) then it would have really helped. ~Technophant (talk) 23:00, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

• @rebranding: You may be underestimating the barbarians! They've put out a slick English-language publication that explains it all. ("It's either the Islamic State or the Flood," according to one article. I guess that's why they need dams.) Clodhopper Deluxe (talk) 03:49, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Clodhopper Deluxe. I added it to User:Technophant/Al Furqan Media Productions#Magazines It's actually a weekly e-zine. Take a look at ISIS militants produce slick weekly magazine packed with English language Islamist propaganda designed to recruit and radicalise would-be extremists in the West from the Daily Mail. ~Technophant (talk) 05:40, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Whenever I hear/read it being referred to in the UK Media it seems to be something like "ISIS now called the Islamic State". Indeed, ISIS + "Islamic State" is picking up 13.6M google hits which seems to confirm my impression that WP:COMMONNAME should point us toward ISIS (The Islamic State) as a title. Just a thought. DeCausa (talk) 10:19, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

I concur, DeCausa, but with a slight correction if I may: "the" with a lower case "t" in the article and, of course, uppercase "T" in the title. Not sure who used "The Islamic State" in the middle of a sentence but that was not what I initially coined. I have provided enough support for changing the title to "The Islamic State" and using "the Islamic State" everywhere else in the article where an uppercase is not warranted, e.g. after a period or at the beginning of a sentence. "Islamic State" makes no sense to me. Worldedixor (talk) 10:32, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

DeCausa, do you not think that could just be a temporary phase while the media move from "ISIS" to "Islamic State"? "Islamic State" is rapidly picking up speed and changing the title to anything other than "Islamic State" or "The Islamic State" could quickly become out of date, couldn't it? --P123ct1 (talk) 10:51, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Possibly, but WP:CRYSTAL means we shouldn't take that into account. My personal guess is that in the long run "Islamic State" is going to be too indistinct for the media to use on a sustained basis and they will ultimately always use a disambiguator. At least while they remain just a militia. Of course if they really do set up "the Islamic State" over a swathe of MidEast things might be different. DeCausa (talk) 11:09, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Ok, it's pretty clear now that we aren't going to get consensus to change the name. There's another problem which is that other articles use different names, eg some actually do use "Islamic State", and once this RfC is closed we need to clean that up. Dougweller (talk) 08:16, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Unrecognised state

Clicked on the link and noted that this is not at the link List of states with limited recognition (although it was very briefly). It isn't sourced and appears to be original research. Please don't replace this without discussion. Start an RfC if you wish, this is a major claim and needs clear justification. Dougweller (talk) 12:43, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 12:45, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Those are a bunch of savage and evil terrorists not a state.Worldedixor (talk) 18:41, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Worldedixor, this may be a talk page, but that doesn't entitle you to say whatever you please, no matter how inflammatory or disruptive. Your personal opinions are your own, but they don't belong here. I have already notified you of WP:SCWGS, and in my view, the edit above is sanctionable. I'm not going to sanction you, but if you repeat it or anything similar, you risk being blocked per the community sanctions applicable to this page.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:01, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Bbb23. Isn't it true that Dougweller "e-mailed" you? Also, how can what I said on the article talk page be sanctionable? ALL my edits on the article were well sourced and made in good faith. Please specify the WP rule that you are basing your contact with me that does not allow me to explain (on the talk page not in the article) that I do not believe that ISIS is a state and like many CIVILIZED countries beleieve, I strongly believe that they are terrorists? I understand your view and respect your right to your view but your contact with me, when warranted, should be based on WP rules. Worldedixor (talk) 19:10, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

@Worldedixor: See WP:NOTFORUM. Even on talk pages we strive to keep our personal opinions about the article's subject to a minimum. If I said "X is a blowhard" on X's article talk page I would be admonished. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:18, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks NeilN . Will scrutinize and respond. Worldedixor (talk) 19:25, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

OK, NeilN, I understand… While my intent and my edit history on this article and its talk page were certainly not meant to engage in forum chat, I can see how my choice of words to explain that ISIS is not a state but rather terrorists could be "selectively" interpreted by someone as a forum chat. In any case, what took place today after misconstruing "once again" my edits, transcend this small matter. Thanks anyway. I appreciate it. Worldedixor (talk) 20:28, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Barzani: we are fighting a terrorist state not terrorist group. here 3bdulelah (talk) 20:06, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, a state with borders and a population that are constantly changing. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 08:43, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

:-) Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 08:50, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I noticed that someone must have changed group to unrecognized state. I just reverted it. Is my understanding that there is no consensus on "unrecognized state" correct? If there is, then I'll be glad to revert it back. Just let me know here. Worldedixor (talk) 04:41, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

The Long War Journal as a reliable source

I took a look at the Reliable Source Noticeboard for the latest discussion of this website as a source. It has been used in this article quite a bit. The consensus is: "it should be quoted with attribution" due to its potential POV issues here. ~Technophant (talk) 00:29, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

This is quite alarming. The LWJ has been cited 13 times in this article and three times in the Al-Baghdadi article. Those mentions will all have to be gone through and checked, making sure that there is an attribution each time. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:05, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Have gone through the LWJ mentions in this article and only one needed an in-line attribution (done). The rest backed up facts and expressed no POV. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:08, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

The LWJ mentions in the al-Baghdadi backed up facts only. --P123ct1 (talk) 16:20, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

DAESH or DAIISH?

One of ISIS's names is the acronym, DAESH, which ISIS considers to be insulting (see "Name & name changes"). Does anyone know why? A curious reader (e.g. self) might want to know. What is DAESH an acronym of anyway? The US Department of State (see footnote #81) lists one of ISIS's names as "al-Dawla al-Islamiyya fi al-Iraq wa-sh-Sham" (it lists "Daesh" as well), so shouldn't the acronym be DAIISH, as other sources say? (e.g. Washington Post, footnote #79) --P123ct1 (talk) 20:11, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

It's arguably unwise for me to comment on this, since I'm not sure, but I believe Daʿesh is an acronym for ʾal-Dawlah ʾal-ʾIslāmīyah fī ʾal-ʿIrāq wa-ʾal-Shām, where the ʾ and the ʿ count as the "first letter" of those words. It appears to ignore all instances of ʾal, fī, and wa (just as words like "the" and "and" are usually ignored in English acronyms). I believe the ʾ (hamza) can be read as either a consonant or a long vowel, so, in the case of Daʿesh, it is being read as the a. The Sh in Shām is, naturally, one letter. I'm not sure about the e; it's clearly a dialectical pronunciation of either short a or short i; in the former case, it would have be a neutral epenthetic vowel added to make the word more pronounceable; in the latter case, I guess it would be the second sound in ʿIrāq, included for the same reason. – Greg Pandatshang (talk) 20:57, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

IMHO I've also wondered about this, however I figured that the Arabic speaking contributors to this page know best concerning Arabic acronyms. If it is some kind of issue of bias instead of verifiable/reliable sourced statements then this needs to be discussed further. Rightswatcher (talk) 21:12, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

The sources in the footnotes (in "Name & name changes") vary - DAIISH, Da'ash and Daesh (but no DAESH, as in the Lead). Before I changed the name in "Name & name changes" to match "DAESH" in the Lead, it said "Da'ish". I couldn't find anything on the internet to help with this, except that "DAASH" is a common variant and that the acronym is currently widely used in the region to refer to ISIS. This subject has been discussed talked about before (see #1 on this Talk page and in Archive 1), but no conclusion was reached. The wide variation in the acronyms most probably has to do with how the Arabic is transliterated – different transliterations can be a nightmare, leading to many variants of the same Arabic word or name. --P123ct1 (talk) 22:14, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

The BBC has said "Some have also started referring to the group as "Da'ish" or "Daesh" a seemingly pejorative term that is based on an acronym formed from the letters of the name in Arabic, "al-Dawla al-Islamiya fi Iraq wa al-Sham" ... Some Arab media outlets and politicians have meanwhile started using the term Da'ish. It appears to have originated from posts by Syrian opposition activists and social media users. Da'ish is not an Arabic word and the use of acronyms is not common in Arabic. Furthermore, the jihadist group objects to the term and has advised against its usage." (see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27994277). Is this any help? Robertm25 (talk) 22:36, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• It was originally changed by User:Tshuva right here Supersaiyen312 (talk) 18:59, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

The latest change in the Lead (reverting to an earlier edit) solves nothing. It just gives one more acronym to contend with, DAISH. The "Name & name changes" mention of DAESH has not been changed, so that is just one more inconsistency in this article (see topic #29 below). --P123ct1 (talk) 20:30, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

The confusion over the name is actually happening in other language too. The medias in French, Spanish, and German debating about what to call the group. If anyone knows how to speak Arabic here, maybe they can help translate it. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 21:56, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Supersaiyen312, I just want to go on record that I know a very good editor who speaks English, Arabic, French and Spanish proficiently, but that editor was shamelessly discouraged from editing this article even when flagrant inaccuracies are clearly observed. It's just not worth it. Wikipedia loses. Worldedixor (talk) 00:28, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

We should simply use what reliable sources use. If there are several transliterations, we might use several all with sources. It really isn't up to us to decide which transliteration to use. There isn't necessarily one correct one. Dougweller (talk) 05:38, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

It is being suggested below (Talk:Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#"Daash", "Da'ish" or "Daesh", coverage in Arabic media and reflected content in the article) that the a common use of "Da`ish" be adopted as MOS. Please comment at link. Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:02, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

The option Da`ish is beig discussed at Talk:Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#"Daash", "Da'ish" or "Daesh", coverage in Arabic media and reflected content in the article below.Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:33, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Hilary Clinton hoax/conspiracy theory

Not sure if this should be in the article but at the very least useful for editors to know about and read in a reliable source.[17] Dougweller (talk) 09:05, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree and would go further. There seems to be a whole host of conspiracy theories, most claiming that ISIS is a creation of the USA or Mossad. [18] and, of course, those that blame Mrs. Clinton [19]. Jason from nyc (talk) 14:52, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

If due weight doesn't allow it in our over-crowded article it fits in Conspiracy theories in the Arab world and I added a line there. Jason from nyc (talk) 15:06, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

specific section on massacres?

I knew that ISIS was committing murder, but until last night's BBC report and this morning's somewhat briefer mention on NPR, I did not know the extent of what was going on. I will try to find journalistic reports that focus on numbers and those affected, but since it is this "serious" should the article have a section on this group's mass-murders? HammerFilmFan (talk) 14:26, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

There are already separate articles for the mass murders, so a link in the sections should be enough. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 02:07, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

A section presenting a summary of the main articles devoted to the mass murders is the best. Mhhossein (talk) 05:49, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

As the weeks go by, it becomes more urgent that there is a section in this article dealing with this, and with ISIS's religious persecution. They are religious fundamentalists of the worst kind. It reminds me of how the terrorism issue was not broached in this article until it became obvious to the whole world that the ISIS are terrorists. How can Wikipedia possibly ignore what is going on now? A summary of other articles on these two topics with links to them would be best, I think, but with judicious additions as events unfold, not a daily bulletin. If the timeline in this article could be turned into a separate article (like the timeline article on the Syrian Civil War), summaries of events to go into this article would be easier to make. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:42, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Official language

This terrorist organization has no "official language". Terrorist organizations do not have an official language. They may have a common language (linguna franca) with which the militants can understand each other, and I doubt it is Arabic in this case. We all know that the militants of ISIS come from very different national and geographic backgrounds. I read somewhere of Australian presence for example. There are people of many nationalities, Indians, Pakistanis, Australians, Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans, etc. A third generation Australian muslim (of Indian, Indonesian, Arab or whatever origin) speaks in Arabic with the Pakistani or the Afghan? No Sir. They speak mostly English. (How could I know that? :-) I am making Original Research just as our absurd Infobox does, stating an "official language". Therefore I delete that so-called official language and will resist any attempt to put it back there without "multiple independent reliable sources". Thank you. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 08:13, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Please do not assume that all terrorists act according to the stereotypes in your mind.

Devout Muslims learn Arabic because only the Arabic versions of their scriptures are considered authoritative.

If the Jews can resurrect the dead Hebrew language for their Jewish state, then how much easier is it for the Muslim fanatics to learn the living Arabic language for theirs? JRSpriggs (talk) 05:31, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Haven't you then just made a stereotypical assumption? I agree with WSIHAUN?: "Official language" needs a source. DeCausa (talk) 06:36, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

It would make sense that they would want the state to be Arabic-speaking though, furthermore because they are mostly active in Iraq and Syria. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 06:55, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

On the subject of infoboxes, how appropriate is to have time zones, calling codes and geographical co-ordinates? Adding such things smacks of displacement activity. Better to concentrate on either improving what is already in the article or making new additions, e.g. setting up new sections on IS's mass murders and religious persecution, perhaps splitting off the timeline into a separate article, and tackling the place of Wahhabism in IS's religious beliefs, in the "Ideology and beliefs" section. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:34, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Citations needed for countries in Lead

I have added "citation needed" tags to the countries added to the list of those designating ISIS as a terrorist organization, as no citations were given when they were added. I have asked the editor to provide citations but there are none yet. I propose removing the countries from the list if none are provided soon. If there are any objections, please give them here. --P123ct1 (talk) 12:02, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I support this initiative of P123ct1. As to removing them "soon": I think, surely after 36 hours you may remove them if not yet sourced, perhaps even sooner. Have you asked the responsible editor, and is he active these days on Wikipedia? Then 24 hours should be long enough. --Corriebertus (talk) 12:44, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

The edit was made at 8.08 UTC on the 14th, and I have reminded the responsible editor today. He is not a regular editor here, but he is currently active on other pages. I can't revert yet as I have reached my 1RR limit! --P123ct1 (talk) 13:39, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I agree. I just searched for a statement by Amnesty and found nothing saying they call it terrorist. I'd say no more than 24 hours (less now(, they can always be replaced, just leave a list here of the ones removed. Dougweller (talk) 14:59, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Dougweller: So that means now would be okay? Obviously I have to be very careful here. --P123ct1 (talk) 16:13, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

No, too soon, at least 24 hours from when you added them. This isn't a BLP. Dougweller (talk) 17:29, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, we were talking at cross-purposes. So 24 hours after I added the tags [20](when I first informed the editor), the countries can be removed. --P123ct1 (talk) 19:49, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Have now removed the EU and countries with citation tags and Amnesty International from the Lead:-

Iran

Iraq

Israel

Syria

Lebanon

European Union

--P123ct1 (talk) 20:38, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

There were also some other questionable changes by that same user in the same edit. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 01:45, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

The one that bothers me most is the inflammatory language used about ISIS being violent [21], which I refer to in the next section "Lead and NPOV". It really should not remain in, IMO. --P123ct1 (talk) 06:32, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for continuing this discussion. However, I’m stunned by edit 16Aug2014,07:17 of Mr. P123ct1 himself. We testified here to be displeased with unreferenced mentionings of countries etc. calling IS a terrorist organization; and now, mr. P123 himself adds the United Nations as calling them a terrorist group without source citation—and immediately adds his selfcriticism that a citation is needed... That seems inconsistent behaviour to me, illogical, and not in accordance with Wiki philosophy—but more important: if the required citation is not added before 17Aug,07:17, ofcourse that reference to U.N. must also quickly be removed, I suppose and suggest. --Corriebertus (talk) 16:17, 16 August 2014 (UTC) P.S. I've contacted mr. P123 about this. --Corriebertus (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Corriebertus: I am happy to remove it until sources to support including the UN there can be found and have done so. I had the impression from the discussion at WP:RSN#Is this UN document a reliable source to say the UN Security Council designated the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant is a terrorist organisation? (referred to in Talk page section #43 on this subject) that there were such sources around, but it was perhaps a little premature to make that inclusion before some could be found. We will have to keep this discussion open until then. --P123ct1 (talk) 17:13, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I see my removal has been reverted! There are three options here: (a) leave out "UN" until a supporting source can be cited, (b) leave it in with a {{citation needed}} tag, or (c) leave it in with no citation. Only (a) and (b) can be countenanced. Such a big statement about such an important organization simply has to be backed up. If there is a source, and I am quite sure there will be many, quote it! Put it in a footnote! --P123ct1 (talk) 19:07, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

What is wrong with putting it in with a "citation needed" tag? It gives editors a day to come up with something (more if you consider time zones), doesn't mislead the public, and can be taken out after 24 hours if no-one comes up with one. (In other words, I've changed my mind!) --P123ct1 (talk) 19:59, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks again. Some colleague(s) have in the mean time done good work and added at least one good proof of the UN calling them a terrorist group. --Corriebertus (talk) 11:47, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Lead and NPOV

This is a recent edit in the Lead [22]: " ISIS is known for its extreme and brutally harsh interpretation of the Islamic faith and sharia law and has a record of horrifying violence" (giving suitable citations) and then it goes on to give detail that I think is inappropriate for the Lead (the list of those ISIS persecute) and would be more suitable somewhere in the main article. That sentence with its intemperate language seems to me to flout NPOV outrageously. What do others think? --P123ct1 (talk) 14:47, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 15:00, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Reverted edit with "loaded" words. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

@P123 (and all others): Please be clear in your statements on talk pages. You think the list of ‘Assyrian Chrs., Yazidis,…’ would be “more suitable” somewhere else. So please give a suggestion of what place in the article would be more suitable. If you can’t think out such a place, it would seem that you just don’t want to read these facts at all in the article. --Corriebertus (talk) 15:09, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Corriebertus on this. It is always best to present a problem with at least one possible solution. Worldedixor (talk) 17:04, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I took care of NPOV with that edit. Action speaks louder than good advice! --P123ct1 (talk) 17:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I had been thinking there could be a section on the persecution of religious groups and others in this article (see my comment yesterday in "A serious discussion" below), but where it should go and how it should be headed I cannot think at the moment. I spent most of my time on this page today cleaning up footnotes and converting bare URLs left by editors in their new additions. Any ideas? --P123ct1 (talk) 21:44, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

See my comment, on a separate section for persecutions by IS, in the next section on this talk page. --Corriebertus (talk) 11:07, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

A serious discussion

I will be re-formulating a discussion which I tried to begin before with no response: We have parallel articles on Persecution of Yazidis by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and Persecution of Assyrians by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. The only ethno-religious groups persecuted by the ISIL in northern Iraq are not these two. There are also Turkmens and the Shabaks, who are also a Turkic people according to some sources, being persecuted. The majority of these two peoples are Shia Muslims (or seculars, as in the case of many Iraqi Turkmens). That is why the ISIL terrorists persecute them. Not to forget, please, that there are also many Sunni Muslims in northern Iraq (Arabs, Turkmens, Kurds) that are also secular and being persecuted. The ISIL is not a "Sunni Muslim" organization, it is a radical, armed organization that is "terrorizing" everybody who do not share and obey their extremist ways. There are many Sunni Muslims suffering this persecution (persecution is not only killing) in their daily lives in northern Iraq. We have to see this fact and not limit our "persecution" articles to the Assyrians and the Yazidis. These two are the only -non-Muslim groups there and our readers are going to think that we are only concerned for the non-Muslims. (If I were only a reader I would think so; but as I am also a Wikipedian I want to attract everybody's attention to this concern of mine.) Please, if we cannot find enough material for a "persecution article" for every ethno-religious group suffering from the ISIL's persecution, let us at least make a general article on "Religious persecution by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". Please participate in this discussion and/or help to begin that article directly. Thanks. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 06:16, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Mr. "Why should...": please stop abusing this talk page. If you want to seriously discuss something, state shortly and understandably the issue of your problem in the title of the talk section. We don't have time, and even less desire, to read your long philosophies or reasonings or whatever they are, on these pages. --Corriebertus (talk) 16:34, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

It may be a long preamble, but I think he makes a good point. It probably would be worth having a separate article on ISIS's persecution of other groups, and have just a short section on it in this article. The Yazidi and Assyrian articles are not very long and could easily be merged into one and built onto. I think he is right that all groups being persecuted by ISIS deserve equal treatment by Wikipedia. --P123ct1 (talk) 17:25, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you. we should have an article that talk about IS persecution of anyone who doesn't give Bay'ah to them otherwise we will have ten articles at least! IS massacred Sunni Muslims in Deir ez-Zor and Northen Aleppo. 3bdulelah (talk) 19:22, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Would you mind beginning it? I will build onto. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 10:46, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Colleagues: me being critical every now and then on a colleague must not be understood as not appreciating their (good) work on Wikipedia: on the contrary. Apparently, this section is about a new article on IS’s persecution of (groups of) people. The simple and correct solution would be: first start a section: 'Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant#IS’s persecution of (groups of) people'. As soon as that section gets big (one screen page, 750 words), turn it over into a new article leaving a summary (200 words) in main article. --Corriebertus (talk) 11:06, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Corriebertus If I'm getting you right then this is a future split proposal? We could vote on it now and set a condition (word count or text size in kB) that needs to be met, or repropose this when the time comes. I think that the editors at The Yazidi and Assyrian articles would not want them merge because it will seem to take importance away from their event. ~Technophant (talk) 03:37, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Live Leak as a reliable source

First, I commend Peachster2 for being a useful contributor who adds well sourced content. His/her RT reliable source is sufficient for me. Live Leak cannot be used as a reliable source. I have used my 1RR. Can Peachster2 or someone who has not done 1RR or more today, remove the Live Link source? Thanks. Worldedixor (talk) 23:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Not sure who removed it, but thanks. Worldedixor (talk) 17:12, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Recent large revert

Do people think that [23] was a good revert? I'm willing to use my 1RR to restore it if that's what others want, but obviously if people think that material should not be in the article I don't want to put it back. Dougweller (talk) 09:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Forgot - not impressed by the edit summary "the quotations are not relevant, as US intelligence or Hillary Clinton is not super-partes. They are involved in the political situation, and should not be considered reliable source of information. Wikipedia should not do propaganda". Dougweller (talk) 09:17, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Without looking at the merits of the content, I just want to give you a word of support and agree with you on principle only. In my opinion, NO editor should make such large revert of someone else's work in a 1RR article without giving advance notice on the talk page. 24 hours is reasonable but a few hours is better than nothing. So, if you have 1RR (I had to use mine today on reverting the cn request), feel free to use it and let the editor who wants it removed give advanced warning with some justifying. Worldedixor (talk) 16:56, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. I'll give it until tomorrow however. No rush. Dougweller (talk) 20:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I think it should also be included. I wasn't impressed by the edit summary either, and that was quite a big chunk of material removed. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 06:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I've restored it now. Dougweller (talk) 14:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Dear all, I'm not a big editor on Wikipedia, therefore I'm not very familiar with the procedures to follow. Do you really think that material is relevant? Isn't it like asking Bayer whether the aspirins they produce is good or not? There're a clear conflict of interests. In my opinion analysis should be done by historians, after proofs. Not by politicians that try to get consensus in US/try to continue their business in Iraq. I'm sorry if someone put that material with innocent mind, but I think it's propaganda. If it's not so, please show the reasons why Hillary Clinton or the others think in that way. Thanks for the support.teoporta

Discussion on cn requests

In the best interest of improving WP, and before I say what I need to say, I want to verify who inserted ||cn|date=17 August 2014||

for the well-sourced content I added

16 August: The Islamic State massacred 80 Yazidis.441 "The EU agreed to supply Kurdish forces with arms", and US military forces continued to attack Islamic State fighters in the area around Iraq’s crucial Mosul dam.[442]

noting that the reliable source 441 that I already provided in the same article and the same paragraph clearly says: "The EU agrees to supply Kurdish forces with arms" and there was no need neither for a cn request nor for another reliable source to support what was already well-sourced.

Worldedixor (talk) 16:31, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

IMPORTANT UPDATE: I just found out the name of the editor who made the cn request (that I removed) on "very well sourced" content that says.

It was P123ct1 and this can be duly verified at [24].

So, to P123ct1:

1. Please adhere to WP:EQ. I think you should have let me know that it was you who made this edit.

2. Please do not add cn requests on "very well sourced" content that I add when the content "The EU agreed to supply Kurdish forces with arms" is already in the reference and the "reliable source" that I provided 441 clearly says The EU agrees to supply Kurdish forces with arms. This pattern of editing and confrontation is appearing like WP:Wikihounding, and as one good admin already told you "you might be shocked to learn how many edit wars are over tags". I am communicating with you so you don't repeat the same thing again. Worldedixor (talk) 02:42, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Using YouTube for citations

There is a creeping use of YouTube as a source to back up edits in this article. How appropriate is this? There is even a YouTube clip cited which is spoken entirely in Arabic. How appropriate is that in the English Wikipedia? Fortunately I managed to find a written source to supplement that YouTube clip, guided by the text. This extra work shouldn't be necessary; edits and sources should be transparent. There are more and more citations of articles and news reports in Arabic as well, again not suitable for the English Wikipedia, whatever the subject matter is. A few are acceptable, but not as many as are being used now (see "References"). --P123ct1 (talk) 23:34, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I see the latest YouTube clip has been removed by Gazkthul, and another was removed not very long ago by another editor. --P123ct1 (talk) 23:34, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I view your use of "creeping use" in reference to my use of an OFFICIAL non-English news media video on Youtube as one of WP:EQ, WP:NPA and repeated WP:Wikihounding. Why do you repeatedly confront my edits, single-handedly modify WP Rules at whim, and assert, without any basis, that "reliable Arabic sources are not suitable for the English Wikipedia"?... What about Spanish and French reliable sources?... This is an article about events taking place in the Middle East. There are very good reasons why Citations to non-English sources are expressly allowed on Wikipedia, otherwise the rules would completely prohibit citations to non-English sources. So, there is really no need to attack me or attack my non-English reliable sources. I am certainly NOT violating WP rules in providing "very well sourced" content and using citations to non-English sources, am I? I am providing good content. Worldedixor (talk) 00:52, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

IMPORTANT: As discussed in "Discussion on cn requests" above, I found out that it was you, P123ct1, who made that edit even though my "reliable source" in that case was completely in English. Worldedixor (talk) 02:50, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

One more sign of WP:EW today by P123ct1 who, out of all the other sections of the article that she could revert, chose to incorrectly revert the correct Mosul Dam content I edited. [25] A good admin spelled it out clearly "Technically, any change to an article or the restoration of material previously deleted is a revert". An unnecessary and incorrect revert to another editor's accurate edit is a revert. Worldedixor (talk) 09:34, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I request the mediation of a non-involved admin to help put an end to this matter. Worldedixor (talk) 00:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I'd be interested to see any Admin who would consider changing "Dam" to "dam" a revert, and in any case the editor reverted themself. Dougweller (talk) 10:27, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, P123ct1 has already admitted the mistake and apologised. No admin action is required here. Yunshui ^雲_水 10:40, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Worldedixor: As I said at the beginning, it is a matter of degree, not whether or not foreign language sources can be used. I can see now how my wording was unclear. Of course any foreign source can be used, and particularly Arabic ones on this page, but in moderation in the English WP is what I meant - I think DeCausa made that point in an earlier discussion - and preferably with a translation if there isn't a second citation in English, though Google translations aren't that good! I am sorry about the muddle over "Mosul Dam". I honestly didn't realise until you reverted that I could be mistaken. I automatically go through new entries in the timeline and certainly don't single anyone out. When you firmly reverted, I looked it up in WP, found I was wrong, made that change and apologised. Obviously I am not infallible! As for using YouTube for citations, I think it is frowned on by WP:RS, isn't it? --P123ct1 (talk) 16:16, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

OK, I accept your apology and ask that you do not keep repeating the same pattern as it's certainly not the first time that you make incorrect reverts to my edits. Your saying "frowned upon" is not a decisive term. Where in the rules does is say "in moderation in the English WP is what I meant"? Not to validate your new rules, but the percentage of non-English citations in this article is minimal and used for a very good reason as EXPRESSLY ALLOWED by WP as non-Arabic sources quote the original Arabic sources incorrectly, and the Arabic sources provide more elaborate and timely details of events as they are in the midst of it. For example OBL statements in the past were not accurately reported. More importantly, where, in WP:RS, does it prohibit the use of OFFICIAL Youtube news broadcasts and videos for OFFICIAL News Media channels? Worldedixor (talk) 18:52, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Stop linking and unlinking edit war over "BBC News"

I have noticed that at least once per day someone goes through the article and makes all "BBC News" into links to "BBC News" and then someone goes through it and unlinks them all. Please stop. This is senseless and wasteful. JRSpriggs (talk) 05:58, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Change of sentence

I read a sentence in the Lead, "Economic and political discrimination against Arab Iraqi Sunnis since the fall of the secular Saddam Hussein also helped it to gain support." Did that really happen? If not, the sentence should be changed to "Allegations of economic and political discrimination against Arab Iraqi Sunnis (as propaganda) since the fall of the secular Saddam Hussein also helped it to gain support." I am also reading in the newspapers and online news portals that the "ISIS" or "ISIL" is attracting a lot of Sunni muslims from all over the world, but I don't see that in this article. Why?–Krish8 (talk) 13:37, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Krish8: I am not sure about the first point, but on the second, you are right and you have pointed to a gap in the article. Can you help by giving some sources, i.e. articles in newspapers or journals? I am sure quite sure the gap is inadvertent and it should be filled. --P123ct1 (talk) 16:10, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

What about "The reported economic and political discrimination ...."? Would that not cover it? "Alleged" would be too strong a word as it implies bias, and as for the propaganda point, this article isn't really the place to cover this. --P123ct1 (talk) 16:53, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

To Krish8 Your use of the word "allegations" is the correct word to use to show neutrality and objectivity. For example when a criminal is arrested and has not been convicted as criminal, the media use "alleged criminal" to show non-bias, objectivity and neutrality. Worldedixor (talk) 19:49, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually WP:Alleged says "Words such as supposed, apparent, alleged and purported can imply that a given point is inaccurate, although alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined, such as with people awaiting or undergoing a criminal trial; when these are used, ensure the source of the accusation is clear." Your example is correct but shouldn't be generalised. However, the suggested phrase is "allegations of" and I'd support that. It's a synonym for assertions is subtly but significantly in context different to alleged. Dougweller (talk) 20:57, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

So "Allegations of economic and political discrimination against Arab Iraqi Sunnis since the fall of the secular Saddam Hussein also helped it to gain support." - so leaving out "(as propaganda)" - would be the best wording? --P123ct1 (talk) 07:16, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Here are some news articles I could find online (to show that the "ISIS" or "ISIL" is attracting a lot of Sunni muslims from all over the world): http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9270361/its-jihad-innit-bruv-meet-the-british-muslims-going-to-fight-in-syria/ , http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/12/editorial-where-is-muslim-outrage/ , http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2014-08-10/news/52648271_1_indian-muslims-sunni-muslims-isis , http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/08/us-and-uk-can-t-defeat-isis-arab-states-have-take-lead , http://upww.us/vinienco/2014/08/13/america-europe-asia-isis-attracting-recruits/ , http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/students-hand-out-isis-recruitment-4043705 , http://www.bangkokpost.com/most-recent/426498/isis-attracting-se-asian-fighters , http://arg.uk.com/malaysia-and-indonesia-in-cross-hairs-of-isis-terrorists/ and http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2721230/Thats-boy-Australian-jihadists-seven-year-old-son-poses-decapitated-head-Syrian-solider.html-Krish8 (talk) 14:04, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

The last one is pretty "gruesome". There are lots of other such newspapers and news portals online, but I will stop here-Krish8 (talk) 14:21, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Can someone add the references I mentioned above into the article appropriately?-Krish8 (talk) 15:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

You guys can ignore the replies from "Krish8". He was just banned for being a sock of a former user. AcidSnow (talk) 23:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Please note that Krish8 is a sock, whose new sock name is Krishna39, who attempted an edit yesterday using all those docs as citations. They are both socks of Khabboos and should be ignored and reverted if they make an appearance in this article. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:13, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Proposed edit

I submit here a proposed change to an entry in the timeline, removing a redundant footnote and moving another to a different position. (See main text for footnote details - providing them here creates footnotes that carry forward to subsequent entries on this page.)

"16 August: The Islamic State massacred 80 Yazidis.¹ The EU agreed to supply Kurdish forces with arms, and US military forces continued to attack Islamic State fighters in the area around Iraq’s crucial Mosul Dam.^{1 2}

Do you agree that this amendment can be made? --P123ct1 (talk) 10:49, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Strength = 50,000?!

According to this, IS's strength might be over 50 thousand! Is this figure confirmed by reliable sources? If it is, the infobox should be updated to reflect this. 94.253.204.194 (talk) 20:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

How reliable is that single source, used as a citation in the infobox? The jump from 4,000 troops in Iraq mentioned in the Lead (quoted from the reputable Wall Street Journal 14/6/14) to 30,000 in the infobox, as per Al Jazeera (19/8/14), is a glaring and farcical discrepancy that any reader will notice and call Wikipedia into question over. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:16, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Map

The map's current state imo suggests too strongly that the areas "claimed" by ISIL are actually part of it. I think the infobox map should only represent those areas in which ISIS actually has some control. The territorial claims should at best be shown in a map below, as they are rather irrelevant compared to the actual extent of the entity. I can introduce the changes myself, just looking to see if there's consensus. -- Director (talk) 21:38, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Maybe just make the colour for the claimed area fainter, so it is just visible.

Done. -- Director (talk) 20:27, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Punctuation

Suggest that "Islamic State" should always be in quotation marks, since it is recognized as a 'state' by no other state. Sca (talk) 16:36, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Removal of 'Islamic' as anything actual and only as reference to the users

The name 'ISIL' or 'Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant' has been condemned by two prominent Islamic religious leaders from Egypt and Saudi Arabia. I believe that the wiki pages should be altered to reflect that the entire Muslim world condemns the use of the word 'Islamic' to describe this evil terrorist state. Ref http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/12/muslim-leader-condemns-islamic-state_n_5671572.html and http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/19/saudi-arabia-grand-mufti-islamic-state-enemy_n_5690701.html. This entry should only refer to the 'self proclaimed' name and also reference that other Islamic countries, states and people refuse to recognize ISIL as an actual state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tmd63 (talk • contribs) 12:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

they don't need to be recognized by islamic or non-islamic states for being a state and it doesn't matter how some islamic leaders choose to call them. their controll on the people and territory combined with their firm leadership makes them a state in similar way to most states in the world including some unrecognized ones (as the islamic state) like northen cyprus and transnistria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.181.32.36 (talk) 15:12, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Quick close A move discussion was concluded today with no clear consensus amongst the variety of proposed titles. There is also no rational placed as part of this request.(non-admin closure) Labattblueboy (talk) 04:12, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

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Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State (organization) – Please place your rationale for the proposed move here. Panam2014 (talk) 21:50, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

• Strong support - New name. --Panam2014 (talk) 21:52, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - I support the use of the term "Islamic State" (with another disambiguation) as it now the common name used in the media however they're not really an Organisation, they're a Paramilitary/ Terrorist Group and a Self Proclaimed State in the form of a Caliphate. I really don't think an 'Organisation' is the correct term to describe them as, I'd say they're rather disorganised. Perhaps "Islamic State (Caliphate)" / "The Islamic State (Caliphate)" would be a more appropriate title??? IJA (talk) 22:58, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

IJA (talk · contribs) We could create an article for the state and another for the organization. --Panam2014 (talk) 01:30, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure it already justifies a separate page, the state is a de-facto that can be changed every day. Shimmy (talk) 02:36, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose - This is obvious that the name of the organization isn't The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant anymore. In the other hand, the term Islamic State defines the subject of an Islamic State, which makes it obvious that the new name shouldn't be just Islamic State. I vote for The Islamic State as the correct name, or maybe as IJA suggested above, anyway we should add a reference on top of the page Islamic State to redirect here. Shimmy (talk) 02:36, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
• Request that this discussion be closed – @Jenks24: A previous requested move discussion closed as "no consensus" today. TODAY! There needs to be a cool off time, and perhaps a temporary moratorium on further requested moves. RGloucester — ☎ 02:45, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Map #2

The map grossly overestimates the extent of control the IS has. Many maps show that the IS controls a web like pattern of land and not the huge amount of territory shown in this article. http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/Lightbox/published/263/images/THUMB.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LV2afhXCA0k/U5cagTg__II/AAAAAAAAA7I/NLlCMJajbs8/s1600/ISIS+Actual+Sanctuary+June+2014.jpg

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/isis-timeline-map/img/isis-control.jpg

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/dailystar/Pictures/2014/06/12/320003_mainimg.jpg --92.232.49.38 (talk) 02:51, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

There are two ways of depicting areas of control in the Middle East: you can include or exclude uninhabited (i.e. desert) areas in your map. The mode of depiction currently used in the infobox map doesn't exclude areas of desert that generally fall within the sphere of control of the IS. That is to say, neither types of map are wrong, its just a matter of which one you pick. -- Director (talk) 11:43, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Flags in infobox

An editor has removed these, citing MOS. According to MOS, they are acceptable when the subject is military conflict - see flag icons in infoboxes (2.1.2. para 2). The Syrian Civil War article contains a large number. Should they be restored? --P123ct1 (talk) 07:42, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

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