Talk:Ivernic language
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ivernic language
Can anyone demonstrate the source for this? Its news to me! Fergananim February 6, 2005
- Ditto. Give a source. Any source. Google gives 51 hits for "Ivernic language" none of which has any substance. I vote for deletion. This is fiction, not linguistics. Evertype 14:28, 2005 Mar 5 (UTC)
- I just checked Google for "Ivernic" - the seventh link references two articles by T.F. O'Rahilly from the scholarly journal Ériu Vol 13 in 1942. Not entirely without substance. I notice that Fergananim has also objected to the Builg on the grounds he's never heard of them, and I gather O'Rahilly is the major source for them as well. O'Rahilly seems to have been one of the few scholars to apply any source criticism to Irish historical material and most of the models for early Irish history appear to derive from his work, and so far I haven't been able to find any references that suggest his theories are controversial. I have his Early Irish History and Mythology on order from the library and will update here when I've read it. Anyone with any knowledge of the man and his work, please post! --Nicknack009 00:57, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Addendum - O'Rahilly's Irish Dialects Past and Present might be of relevance here too. The Thomas Francis O'Rahilly Papers might be of interest.--Nicknack009 01:11, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I just checked Google for "Ivernic" - the seventh link references two articles by T.F. O'Rahilly from the scholarly journal Ériu Vol 13 in 1942. Not entirely without substance. I notice that Fergananim has also objected to the Builg on the grounds he's never heard of them, and I gather O'Rahilly is the major source for them as well. O'Rahilly seems to have been one of the few scholars to apply any source criticism to Irish historical material and most of the models for early Irish history appear to derive from his work, and so far I haven't been able to find any references that suggest his theories are controversial. I have his Early Irish History and Mythology on order from the library and will update here when I've read it. Anyone with any knowledge of the man and his work, please post! --Nicknack009 00:57, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I think the Ivernic hypothesis is real, but I wonder whether anyone but O'Rahilly ever believed it. --Angr 16:26, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I remember reading Early Irish History and Mythology years ago, then in the past year read the re-printed edition. Back then I was deeply excited about its implications. Now, being a little better versed in history, I would be cautious, to say the least, about some of his ideas, ingenious as they are. O'Rahilly made the mistake of making his theorys sound like autoritive, incontraventable, fact. They are not. They remain ingenious theorys, but theorys just the same. Fergananim
Bollocks
edit"The Irish language contains a significant number of loanwords from the Brythonic languages." Name fifty such loanwords. Name twelve. Evertype 01:14, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)
I'm in no position to defend the theory - I took Angr's word for it myself - but here are the ones O'Rahilly claims: "Such words, nevertheless, are quite numerous, e.g. rón, sgríob, raideóg, carraig, gealbhann, Brian, Bruadar, to mention but a few. We find p- retained in partán, port ('tune'), pata, (s)preas, and in the tribal names Partraige, Papraige. Especially notable among these Ivernic loanwords are the national name Goídil, the name of the Irish language Goídelg, and a number of pagan deity names including Nuadu (or Luadu), Ded, Cathaer Már, Buchet, in Tat Már, Allduí. Such words make it clear that a Brittonic dialect continued to be spoken by sections of the people down to the seventh century, if not later. Many of these words suggest by their meaning or connotation that they were of humble origin, and must have been taken over from the socially inferior classes of the population, e.g. rómhar, caibe, aoileach, súgán, capall, madra ; and a similar conclusion is suggested by the fact that many of them were only tardily admitted into the literature, e.g. gaol, gruag, ciotach, spreas, gaobhar, faoibín." - Mustafaa 01:30, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
VfD result
editThis page was voted on for deletion at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ivernic language. The final result was Merge and redirect to Primitive Irish. --Deathphoenix 03:27, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I cannot find the text from this page within the current version of the page Primitive Irish. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:53, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Ond
edit- To avoid anyone shouting "hoax!!!", Tolkien copied the Iron-speech word "ond" (= "stone") into his invented Elvish languages, NOT vice-versa, and he says so in one of his later books. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:51, 25 November 2015 (UTC)