Talk:Iyer/GA1

GA Reassessment

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There are two sources in this article that are cited claiming that Brahmins are required to abstain from alcohol. These are:

1. T. Osborne, C. Hitch, A. Millar, John Rivington, S. Crowder, B. Law & Co, T. Longman, C. Ware (1765). The Modern part of an universal history from the Earliest Account of Time, Vol XLIII. London: Oxford University., page 104 - Source has no reference to avoidance of alcohol
2. Doniger, Wendy; Brian K. Smith (1991). The Laws of Manu. Penguin Books. ISBN 0140445404. - No page number provided

I looked at the first source and I'm probably looking in the wrong place but this source seems completely irrelevant - it is about Armenia, Turkey and Persia. The exact page numbers are not given for the 2nd source. Can anyone help?

Other sources that may possibly have problems:

1. Alexander Csoma de Kőrös. (1832). Journal of the Asiatic Society. Indian Asiatic Society. ISBN 9630538229. - No page number provided
2. R. Nagaswamy. "Nataraja and Vedic concepts as revealed by Sekkilar". Tamil Arts Academy. Retrieved 2008-08-19. WP:Sources

1. K. D. Abhyankar (2005). "Folklore and Astronomy: Agastya a sage and a star" (PDF). Current Science. 29 (12). WP:Sources
2. Dr. Koenraad Elst (2003). "The Politics of the Aryan Invasion Debate". Voice of India. Retrieved 2008-08-19. WP:Sources
3. "Sripada Ramanujacharya". New Zealand Hare Krishna Spiritual Resource Network. Retrieved 2008-08-19.
4. Broken -- K. Balakrishnan, R. M. Pitchappan, K. Suzuki, U. Sankar Kumar, K. Tokunaga (1996). "HLA affinities of Iyers, a Brahmin population of Tamil Nadu, South India". Wayne State University Press. Retrieved 2008-08-19.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) WP:Sources
5. Chander Kanta Gariyali, I. A. S. "Dikshitars". chennaionline.com. Retrieved 2008-08-19. WP:Sources
6. "Definition of the word gotra". Retrieved 2008-08-19. WP:Sources
7. "Gotra". gurjari.net. Retrieved 2008-08-19. WP:Sources
8. "Shakha". www.dharmicscriptures.org. Retrieved 2008-09-10. WP:Sources
9. P. K. V. Kaimal (2000). We lived together Volume 3 of Monograph series. Pragati Publications. p. 18. ISBN [[Special:BookSources/8173070628, ISBN 978-81-7307-062-4|8173070628, '"`UNIQ--templatestyles-0000000C-QINU`"'[[ISBN (identifier)|ISBN]] [[Special:BookSources/978-81-7307-062-4 |978-81-7307-062-4]]]]. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help); templatestyles stripmarker in |isbn= at position 13 (help) Should be called legendary origin or something like that. It is not a correct anthropological account, just legend.
10. The caption provided for this image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Madras_Kappi.jpg] WP:SYN violation.
11. "Iyer". Uttarakhand Information Centre. Retrieved 2008-08-07. WP:Sources
12. Vikas Kamat. "List of Brahmin communities". Kamat's Potpourri. Retrieved 2008-08-27. WP:Sources
13. "sects". hinduism.co.za. Retrieved 2010-02-14. WP:Sources
14. "Subsects". keralaiyers.com. Retrieved 2008-08-27. WP:Sources
15. "Brief history of Ashtagrama". Ashtagrama Iyer community website. Retrieved 2008-08-27. WP:Sources
16. "History of Kerala iyers and Agraharams accessdate=2008-08-27". Kuzhalmanna Agraharam website. {{cite web}}: Missing pipe in: |title= (help) WP:Sources
17. "Migration Theories". keralaiyers.com. Retrieved 2008-08-19. WP:Sources
18. "The Sixteen Samskaras Part-I" (PDF). August 8, 2003. Retrieved 2008-08-27. WP:Sources
19. "Names of Samskaras". Retrieved 2008-08-27 publisher=kamakoti.org. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help); Missing pipe in: |accessdate= (help) WP:Sources
20. Rajagopala Ghanapatigal. "Jatha karma". http://www.subhakariam.com/samskara/jatakarma.htm. Retrieved 2008-09-02. Self published
21. "Upanayanam". gurjari.net. http://www.gurjari.net/ico/Mystica/html/upanayanam.htm. Retrieved 2008-09-02. Self published
22. Neria Harish Hebbar (March 2, 2003). "Customs and Classes of Hinduism". Boloji Media Inc.. http://www.boloji.com/hinduism/047.htm. Retrieved 2008-09-02. Self published
23. "Transition Rituals". Beliefnet Inc.. http://www.beliefnet.com/story/78/story_7894_2.html. Retrieved 2008-09-02. Self published
24. "Tharpanam". vadhyar.com. http://www.vadhyar.com/Tarpanam.php. Retrieved 2008-09-02. Self published
25. David M. Knipe. "The Journey of a Lifebody". Hindu Gateway. http://www.hindugateway.com/library/rituals/. Retrieved 2008-08-27. Self published
26. "Avani Avittam". K.G.Corporate Consultants. http://www.panchangam.com/avani.htm. Retrieved 2008-08-27. Self published
27. Padma Vaidyanath. "A South Indian Wedding – The Rituals and the Rationale". Sawnet. http://www.sawnet.org/weddings/tamil_vedic.html. Retrieved 2008-08-27. Self published
28. The Practice of madi". ICSI Berkeley. http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~snarayan/anthro-pap/subsection3_4_1.html. Retrieved 2008-08-27. Self published
29. Raghavan Jayakumar. "Popularity of Carnatic music". karnatik.com. http://www.karnatik.com/article001.shtml. Retrieved 2008-08-27. Self published
30. N. Raghunathan. "The Hindu Attitude Towards Vegetarianism". International Vegetarian Union. http://www.ivu.org/congress/wvc57/souvenir/raghunathan.html. Retrieved 2008-08-27 Self published
31. N. Raghunathan. "The Hindu Attitude Towards Vegetarianism". International Vegetarian Union. http://www.ivu.org/congress/wvc57/souvenir/raghunathan.html. Retrieved 2008-08-27. Self published
32. Bombai Srinivasan. "The Goal and the Guide, Petal 3:Fire Walking". Sri Satya Sai Baba Website. http://www.saibaba.ws/teachings/goalguide/goalguide03.htm. Retrieved 2008-08-27. Self published
33. TAMIL: a language of India. Ethnologue: Languages of the World, 14th Edition. 2000. http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=TCV. Retrieved 2008-09-03. Self published
34. Hebbar, Neria Harish (February 2, 2003). "Tulu Language: Its Script and Dialects". Boloji Media Inc.. http://www.boloji.com/places/0020.htm. Retrieved 2008-09-10 Self published
35. Lingua. keralaiyers.com. http://www.keralaiyers.com/lingua. Retrieved 2008-09-10. Self published
36. K. Nambi Arooran (1980). "Caste & the Tamil Nation:The Origin of the Non-Brahmin Movement, 1905-1920". Tamil renaissance and Dravidian nationalism 1905-1944. Koodal Publishers. http://www.tamilnation.org/caste/nambi.htm. Retrieved 2008-09-03. No page number Self published
37. V. Thangavelu. "Brahmins and Eelamists". ambedkar.org. http://www.ambedkar.org/News/hl/Brahmins%20and%20Eelamists.htm. Retrieved 2008-08-19. Self published
38. Tension at Chidambaram temple. Web India 123. March 2, 2008. http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20080302/899005.html. Retrieved 2008-09-06 Self published
39. P. Chidambaram Pillai. "THE RIGHT OF TEMPLE ENTRY" (PDF). http://www.evrperiyar-bdu.org/downloads/templeentry.pdf. Retrieved 2008-07-19. Self published
40. V. Sundaram, I. A. S., Retd. (2007). "Aryan vs Dravidian — Lord Rama vs E V Ramaswamy ???". India Varta. http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column42.htm. Retrieved 2008-08-19. Self published
41. Gail Omvedt. "The Dravidian movement". ambedkar.org. http://www.ambedkar.org/gail/Dravidianmovement.htm. Retrieved 2008-08-19. Self published
42. Sachi Sri Kantha (1992). "Part 8: The Twin Narratives of Tamil Nationalism". Selected Writings by Dharmeratnam Sivaram (Taraki). http://www.tamilnation.org/forum/sivaram/920901lg.htm. Retrieved 2008-09-03. Self published
43. Robert Eric Frykenberg. "Elite Formation in 19th Century South India - An Interpretive Analysis". tamilnation.org. http://www.tamilnation.org/conferences/tamil_studies/IATR66_Kuala_Lumpur/frykenberg.htm Self published
44. Pandey, U. C. (1971). Yajur-Veda: Apastamba-Grhya-Sutra. No page number
45. From the Tanjore Court to the Madras Music Academy: A Social History of Music in South India by Lakshmi Subramanian ISBN 0-19-567835-4 No page number
46. Geetha, V. (2001). Towards a Non-Brahmin Millennium: From Iyothee Thass to Periyar. Bhatkal & Sen. ISBN 8185604371,ISBN 978-81-85604-37-4. No page number
47. P.V.Manickam Naicker, in his The Tamil Alphabet and its Mystic Aspect writes: "At least one of them is explicit in his endeavour to establish page after page and chapter after chapter, untainted Aryan pedigree for the Brahmins and Brahmins alone among the South-Indians. As such, he has naturally no scruples to say that the Tamils have nothing excellent or high which can be claimed as their own. Whatever is bad in them is their heritage and whatever good in them they owe to Sanskrit No page number
48. Caste and the Tamil Nation. tamilnation.org. http://www.tamilnation.org/forum/aryan/index.htm. Retrieved 2008-09-03. Broken and self published
49. In Tamil Renaissance and Dravidian Nationalism Nambi Arooran states: "However the Tamil Renaissance cannot be considered as solely the work of non-Brahmin scholars. Brahmins also played all equally important role and the contribution of U. V. Swaminatha Aiyar and C. Subramania Bharati cannot be underestimated. Similarly in the reconstruction of the Tamil past Brahmin historians such as S. Krishnaswami Aiyangar, K. A. Nilakanta Sastri, V. R. Ramachandra Dikshitar, P. T. Srinvasa Ayyangar and C. S. Srinivasachari brought out authoritative works on the ancient and medieval periods of South Indian history, on the basis of which non-Brahmins were able to look back with pride upon the excellence of Tamil culture. But some of the non-Brahmins looked at the contribution of Brahmin scholars with suspicion because of the pro-Aryan and pro-Sanskrit views expressed sometimes in their writings." BROKEN AND 'Self published No page number
50. A. Ramiah. "Untouchability in villages". Untouchability and Inter Caste Relations in Rural India: The Case of Southern Tamil villages. tamilnation.org. http://www.tamilnation.org/caste/ramaiah.htm#Untouchability_in_villages. Retrieved 2008-08-19. Self published —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zuggernaut (talk • contribs) 07:08, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I have no problem with #2 - Nagaswamy's self published article. He is a former ASI head who is regarded as a serious scholar. Probably the cited material can be qualified with "according to R. Nagasamy"--Sodabottle (talk) 04:10, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Same as above for Gail Omvedt. Nambi arooran is not self pub. His books are published by mainstream tamil publishers; Ethnologue report is also not self pub --Sodabottle (talk) 08:06, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. The person who has requested the reassessment has marked all tamilnation.org articles as self-published. I am yet unsure of in what context the word "self-published" is actually used. Does the user claim that all these articles have been published by authors themselves or whether the source is unreliable. The user has also marked this news item as self-published. I would like to have a clarification. Has the user simply marked sources at random and added reasons for the same?-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 11:22, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, this appears to be a frivolous and vexatious nomination for reassessment. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 12:39, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Neither frivolous nor vexatious. I am relatively new here and I'm following this guideline Wikipedia:Be bold. I'm hoping we all assume WP:Goodfaith. Thanks Zuggernaut (talk) 18:48, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

May be I should have been generic and referred to WP:Sources rather than calling most of these as self-published. Most of the .com, .info, .net and .org websites cited in the article do not comply with WP:Sources in that I doubt their reputation for checking facts and do they have an excellent editorial oversight? I came here looking for credible sources that could be included in other articles but I found in the very first instance that I could not use sources from #1 and #2 above (alcohol prohibition - Doniger, no page number provided and Universal History, page 140) elsewhere. All of the Tamilnation.org links are broken. In fact Tamilnation.org shutdown and went out of business January 25, 2010. This is not a random listing but it may have minor errors. Thanks Zuggernaut (talk) 18:48, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

The book referred here is Universal History, Volume 6 published in 1781 and not Volume 53, published in 1765. I've rectified this mistake. By the way, V. Sundaram is an eminent IAS officer who writes regularly for the Madras newspaper News Today. See here.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 05:56, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the rectification. It would be great if you can fix the Manusmriti citation regarding alcohol by adding the page number as well. Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 16:12, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The reliability of tamilnation.org had been discussed here.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 06:04, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be some back and forth regarding the Tamilnation.org source but it appears that a consensus was never achieved. Nonetheless, the website is now defunct and I would appreciate if we can find other sources to replace the ones that point to that website. If we are going to use non-academic sources, it is important that they have an excellent reputation for fact checking and good editorial oversight. Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 16:12, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

51. The article doses not deserve a good article status.

The book "Castes & Tribes in Southern India" does not have any free or limited preview in the internet.

No ISBN numbers have been provided in any of the iyengar or iyer wiki pages. The Isbn number ie provided in the edgar thurston page ,specifically for "Volumes 1-a,b" and "volume-2" is ISBN 978-8120602885. Wiki editors claim references for some controversial statements such as "all iyengars were once iyers, who later converted to vaishnavism", etc etc from these volumes.

Actually, the isbn number leads to a complete collection of all seven volumes. As you all already know, clicking on the isbn number leads to the "wiki book search result page", which in turn gives many links as to where the book might be available for any "free or limited preview".

But here, there is no such online preview for these volumes(1-a,b & 2) anywhere. Hence the contents are not verifiable by any mean. The only verifiable mean would be to buy the book directly.

The book is written by both Thurston and "K.Rangachari". But here "K.Rangachari" himself is an Iyengar. Such "non-online references" alone, atleast need be written by 3rd parties.

I can cite all the above reasons to delete all claims made from these "non-existent references".

Anyhow, none of the references are valid under any wiki' rule or regulation ,& hence should be deleted as they are used for controversial statements. If someone's going to indicate the "primary source" factor, that they've witnessed the contents of the article, then i suppose they are to provide a valid secondary source for support.

All controversial claims made from castes & tribes should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hari7478 (talk • contribs) 11:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not insist that all the sources used should be available online. Wikipedia always asks its editors to assume good faith. If you are not able to read those books online, I advice you to find some good library in your neighbourhood. Secondly, Castes and Tribes of Southern India is universally recognised as a classic as you might very well understand from The Hindu article provided as a source for the article on the book. And we don't care about the caste of the person who wrote it. Just because, the co-author of the book is one K. Rangachari whose name appears to be used by Sri Vaishnavite Brahmins, it does not make the book less reliable. And since you say that "none of the references are valid under any wiki' rule or regulation", I wish to know whether you are actually aware of what Wikipedia's rules and regulations actually state. Wikipedia also strongly insists on a neutral point of view, in case you are not aware.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 12:11, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on Castes but I guess this argument is baseless.Edgar Thurston's Book does have some flaws but overall its a good source IMO.-Raghavan(Talk) 14:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I have asked outside third opinion from the reliable sources noticeboard not particularly about the Thurston book but about the original list of 50 that I created. [1] Zuggernaut (talk) 20:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)