Talk:Jaba', Haifa

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Material inserted into the article, which probably all is WP:OR, and hence has been taken out

History and geography

Located to the south of the city of Haifa, and away from 18.5 km, rising from the sea 50 m and is based on the western slopes of the southern part of Mount Carmel, the name of the village in the Syriac ܛ ܘ ܼ ܪ ܵ ܐ comes the sense of the mountain or hill, was known in Roman name (Jab'a). Total land area of ​​7012 dunums, surrounded by the territory of the villages Shrine, Sarafand, Ain Ghazal, and Ijzim. Estimated population in 1922 without some (523) people, and in 1945 about (1140) inhabitants, the village contains the tombs in the rock and Mnkorp Vsyvesaúah cut and an ancient well and seductive and the remains of ancient buildings. We recall that in Jenin, Jerusalem, Beit She'an village bearing the name of Jaba. The Zionist organizations armed aircraft bombed the village in July to July in 1948 and completely destroyed and displaced people in 1948's about (1322) people and that was in 24.07.1948. And on the ruins of the village established a colony of Zionists (Geva Carmel) in 1949.

The Village Today

See piles of rubble stones at the site. Is still the tomb of Shaykh Amir upright on the high part of it. And pine forests grow in the ground nearby, fenced with barbed wire. There are the remains of graves around the village, and uses part of the site occupiers pasture for livestock.

Statistics of the village

The population of the village of Jaba ninety-nine people in 1596, and was paying taxes on a number of crops such as wheat and barley, in addition to other elements of production such as goats and beehives. Created by the elementary school for Benin since the Ottoman period year 1303 1885, e. The village economy depends heavily on livestock and agriculture, and was the most important wheat and vegetables crops. The villagers also produce olive .. and planting olive (710) acres in 1943 AD ie 3.5% of its area in the district of Haifa, and abstract oil presses it by hand. Was in Geba 523 people from the Arabs in 1922, rising to 1,140 people in 1945. And the number of homes a year (1931): 158 houses.

Jaba village mayors, according to seniority

• Muflih good Melhem. • Abdullah Yousuf. • Ali Mahmoud increase.

the families that lived in the village to the pre-1948.

• Alshaban. • Al-Yousef. • Al Melhem. • Al Fahid. • Al-Hamidi. • Every increase. • All Alslboud. • All civil. • All Aloamr. • All Alguiney. • All yard. • All beaver. • Al-Ali. • Al Samara. • All Almhaour. • Al-Hamoudi. • All punishment. • Abu Al Zmq.

And the majority of families were displaced and villages of Jaba 'and Ein Ghazal Ijzim to Iraq after 1948. Iraq and the majority of Palestinians now live in the Iraqi capital Baghdad with the presence of a minority of them in Mosul, Iraq and some other provinces. There is also a large part of them based in the Syrian Arab Republic, mainly of the civil society, and live in the city of Damascus and the other in the city of Latakia. Zionist settlements on the territory of the village

In 1949, established a colony occupation Gevg Carmel on the territory of the village; It lies about a kilometer from the village site.

Sources

   Palestine's location in memory

   Palestine's location in memory

Huldra (talk) 22:14, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Original research

@Davidbena:: Hi, you aren't allowed to make your own ancient identifications. In this case, your aren't entitled to write that a place mentioned by Josephus is the same as a place known in the modern era. There are plenty of different places with the same or similar names. You have to cite a modern expert source for the equivalence. Zero^talk 22:57, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Don't worry, my good friend, @Zero0000:. I have been reading much on this subject, and nearly all Israeli archaeologists concur with one accord that this Jaba, between Ptolemais (Akko) and Caesarea Maritima is the same Gaba spoken of in Josephus (Wars book 3, chapter 3, section 1) and in Pliny. If you'd like, I can present more sources showing their views on this subject.Davidbena (talk) 23:20, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Another thing that I found online was this article, Settlements Names, see page 14, where the Israeli writer, Guy Shachar, from the University of Tel-Aviv describes our Jaba, saying in Hebrew:

גַ'בַּע גבע כרמל היה מיושב כבר במאה הראשונה לספירה. יתכן שיישוב עתיק זה מזוהה עם אתר מהתקופה הרומית שנקרא Gabata. הכפר הערבי ג'בּע שימר את השם העתיק. בכפר היו 1140 תושבים טרם מלחמת העצמאות. בשנת 1949 הוקם במקום מושב גבע כרמל, המחזיר את השם העתיק. I will post more references later.Davidbena (talk) 23:34, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

While there were, indeed, several places in the country with the same namesake, this Jaba (Ǧabaʻ) is on the western edge of Carmel, and listed as Ḥurvat Gevaʻ, 1469.2289, in the Haifa Atlas 38.40.42 latitude, a settlement of the Hellenistic and Roman-Byzantine period. I'll bring down more information when I can.Davidbena (talk) 03:07, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Well; the following book:

• Tsafrir, Yoram; Leah Di Segni; Judith Green (1994). (TIR): Tabula Imperii Romani: Judaea, Palaestina. Jerusalem: Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities. ISBN 9-652081-07-8.

...on p. 125 puts Gaba Hippeon is given as el Harithiyeh 160/236, that is, present Sha'ar HaAmakim. And at the discussion for DYK for Abu Shusha (Template:Did you know nominations/Abu Shusha, Haifa) someone said it was at Abu Shusha, Haifa! So that is 3 places where it was? Seriously....Huldra (talk) 22:36, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

It is true that archaeologists, past and present, have disputed the identification of Gaba mentioned in Josephus (Wars iii.iii.1), just as they did with Gamla until the old identification was replaced by the newer identification. Disputes are not new to the archaeological scene, but here we must rely on the most recent and credible evidence. Besides, the Tosefta (Kelim - Baba Metzia 6:10), also speaks of a Gaba in Samaria, belonging to the Samaritans, saying: “They did not mention the pomegranates of Bāden nor the leeks of Jabaʻ of the House of the Samaritans (Heb. Kūthīm) except to say that they are tithed as produce [that went] certainly untithed.” This happens to be the Gaba mentioned by Adolf Neubauer, in his La géographie du Talmud. However, German Professor, D. A. Alt, in Leipzig published an article (had on JSTOR) entitled, Die Reiterstadt Gaba (1939, p. 9) where he says explicitly that when Eusebius in his Onomasticon refers to the village Dscheba (the Geba mentioned by Pliny) on the western edge of Carmel, that this village is actually 19 kilometers distant from Caesarea rather than 24, and which was an inhabited town in the Roman period. I will try to find more sources which confirm this identity. In any rate, the Tel-Aviv researcher clearly identifies the village Jaba' (near Carmel) with the Gaba of Josephus in Wars, book 3, chapter 3, section 1. You may also wish to see this: The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ (vol. 2), by Emil Schürer, p. 164.Davidbena (talk) 04:20, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

David, the Guy from TAU is this guy as far as I can tell, and you see from his list of qualifications that we should not use his opinion to displace genuine experts in ancient site identification (such as Tsafrir who Huldra cited). Zero^talk 09:41, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

According to Ahituv, Canaanite Toponyms in Ancient Egyptian Documents, p99: "Geba was once identified by Mazar with Jaba, a deserted village on the western slopes of Mt. Carmel; later he equated it with Geba-shemen and located it at Tell el-Amr. But as Geba-shemen is mentioned explicitly already in 1:41, this must be another Geba. Aharoni proposed locating Geba at Khirbet esh-Shuqaq on the suggested 'Saphita Road.' However, it is now evident that Geba is to be located at Tell Abu Shushah and equated with Gaba of the Cavalry of Josephus." In a footnote it says "Still another Gabe is mentioned by Eusebius (Onomasticon, 70:8), as being 16 Roman miles from Caesarea. The only suitable site for this Gabe is the deserted village of Jaba on the western slopes of Mt Carmel, ca. 24 km from Caesarea on the supposed Roman road." Zero^talk 09:51, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

• The identification of Gaba with Tell Abu Shushah (Tell Shosh) is contested, as I will show you by the following: Author Duane W. Roller, in his book "The Building Program of Herod the Great," p. 161 has written: "A number of sites have been suggested as the location of Herod's settlement... Another candidate is the Gaba north of Caesarea, which was destroyed in the 60's A.C. (BJ 2.459) and is identified with modern Jaba, on the west slope of Mount Carmel, probably one of the towns mentioned by Pliny." While he does write that the site may actually be Tell Shosh (Tell Abu Shushah), he adds with some reservation, "...a lead weight with 'Gaba' in Greek on it found at Tell Shosh, thirteen kilometers to the southeast [of et-Haritiyye, a ruin near Beth She'arim - the ancient Besara], has led the discoverers to suggest that this is Gaba. Coins of Gaba have long been found in this area and are more common than at et-Haritiyye. Against this argument one may note that Tell Shosh is less strategically located and that small portable objects move around easily. In fact, two inscriptions with the name Gaba were discovered near Khirbet Gidru just south of Akko (Ptolemais), a location nearer where Pliny seems to have placed Gaba" (End of Quote).
• In the final analysis, the location of the ancient Gaba mentioned by Josephus (Wars iii.iii.1) is disputed amongst scholars. I will show other views, G-d willing, after the Fast of Tisha Be-Av. Theodor Menke, in his work, Atlas antiquus Karoli Spruneri opus tertio edidit, has also made a similar assessment, writing on p. 15, in German, the following (translation follows): "Gaba, die Reiterstadt, bei Josephus, habe ich auf der Karte zu el Kireh der van de Velde'schen Map of the Holy Land angesetzt. Diese Ansetzung ist aber nur ein Nothbehelf den ich identificiere Gaba mit Gabe, das zur Zeit des Eusebius und Hieronymos im Territorium von Caesarea, und zwar am 16. Meilensteine dieser Stadt lag, und offenbar dem topographische noch nicht fixierten Orte Jaba im Sahil Athlit entspricht." (Translation: “Gaba, the equestrian town of Josephus, I have positioned it on the map beside el Kireh of the Van de Velde'schen Map of the Holy Land. However, this heading is only a stopgap measure to identify Gaba with Gabe, which at the time of Eusebius and Hieronymus was in the territory of Caesarea, namely was 16 milestones from this city, and apparently the topographic unfixed place of Jaba in Sahil Athlit corresponds.) End of Quote. By the way, the words "Sahil Athlit" are Arabic for "the valley of Atlit," where our Jaba is located. I will bring down more convincing evidence from historical geographers later on, G-d willing. If I will not be able to show beyond any reasonable doubt that the site to be identified as Gaba is our Jaba of the Carmel, then we can at least write in the main article "it is believed by some to be the Gaba built by Herod for his veteran cavalry, and mentioned by Pliny, etc." Shabbat Shalom.Davidbena (talk) 13:37, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

One more thing: In the Hebrew Wikipedia on the page Geva Carmel (see: גבע כרמל), it says explicitly that the name of the modern Israeli moshav was named after the nearby Arab village, Jaba, and which Israeli author and geographer, Zev Vilnay (ed. Encyclopedia le-Yidi'at ha-Aretz), identifies as the Gaba of the historians Pliny and Eusebius of Caesarea.Davidbena (talk) 14:17, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

P.S. - In Conder and Kitchener's opus magnum, The Survey of Western Palestine, they write in vol. II, p. 42: "Jebá (Sh. 8, Li) seems without doubt to be Geba of Horsemen."Davidbena (talk) 15:13, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

The Adolf Neubauer -ref you gave, is that Gaba on p. 198? I appreciate the Heinrich Theodor Menke-ref you made, but although Menke, (likewise Neubauer, van de Velde, Conder and Kitchener) all were men of great learning, AFAIK, it remains the fact that these were 19th century men, and what they wrote (about historical places) was basically guesses. Educated guesses, for sure, but guesses, non the less. I think we need to keep to what the experts of today say about the matter. I have started to collect some sources on User:Huldra/Gaba. As you can see from the TIR-reference, there are (at least) 3 different Gabas. (Actually, there are far more, but the others do not involve the present places under discussion). It looks as if the:

• Siegelmann, A. (1984). "The Identification of Gaba Hippeon". Palestine Exploration Quarterly. 116: 89–93.

...identifies Gaba Hippeon with Abu Shusha, Haifa, alas, Abu Shusha has also been identified as "Gaba Philippi". (And no, unfortunately I do not have a copy of Siegelmann.)

I have nothing against writing that so-and-so identified X with Y, but I do object to saying X=Y, (which this article presently says.) (And Zev Vilnay and Hebrew Wikipedia cannot be used as sources, IMO: I have found far, far too many mistakes in the articles which were directly translated from he.wp to en.wp) Huldra (talk) 22:16, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Granted, mistakes are made in any and every encyclopedia, regardless of its namesake. The important thing here is not the venue, but the author who purports the claim. IMHO. Cheers.Davidbena (talk) 15:38, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

I will have Siegelman's article in a few days. More recent sources that accept Siegelman's opinion: Yuval Goren, Israel Finkelstein & Nadav Na'aman, (2002) The Seat of Three Disputed Canaanite Rulers According to Petrographic Investigation of the Amarna Tablets, Tel Aviv, 29:2, 221-237, DOI: 10.1179/tav.2002.2002.2.221. And "A Roman Ring Depicting Hermes Psychopompos from the Carmel Area", Shua Amorai-Stark and Malka Hershkovitz, Israel Exploration Journal, Vol. 62, No. 1 (2012), pp. 89-100 [1]. The question is complicated because there is no agreement on which Gabas mentioned in the ancient texts were even the same as each other. It appears from p34 of this 1998 book that Siegelman wanted to place two of the ancient Gabas at Tel Abu Shusha, but some others want to distinguish between them and locate them at two different places (neither place this Jaba). Zero^talk 01:54, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

The chapter of Zadok in this 2004 book reads like this: "D. Barag accepts the identification of B. Maisler [Mazar] of Gaba Hippeon with Hirbit il-Haritiyyi, whereas Gaba Philippi is tentatively localized by Barag in Tall Abu-susi. The latter is identified with Gaba Hippeon by A. Siegelmann and G. Schmitt, but Barag's identifications have gained wider acceptance. The Bedouin tribe of (A'rab banl) Harita is listed immediately after Jaba(-)suwar in 1595/6 CE. Hirbit il-Haritiyyi is named after this tribe. It should be pointed out that A'rab banl Harita1' refers to an encampment or encampments of this tribe and not to a specific site, like Hirbit il-Haritiyyi. Both Jaba(-)suwar and A'rab banl Harita belonged to the subdistrict (nahiya) of the coast (sahil) of 'Atlit in 1595/6 CE. All the other settlements of this subdistrict are located either on the coast or on Mt. Carmel, in which case Jaba(-)suwar would be the only settlement situated in the valley east of the Carmel in 1595/6 CE.; the nearest settlement in the valley in the same list, Lajjun, belonged to another subdistrict, namely, Sara. Therefore it is difficult to fix the border between the two subdistricts, and as a result this later information does not help further in distinguishing between the two homonymous settlements named Gaba. It remains to be seen whether Hirbit il-Haritiyyi has early Ottoman remains. Such a find would enhance its identification with Jaba(-)suwar and ultimately with Gaba Hippeon. Regrettably, Mazar, who reported in general on Arab (= Islamic) remains in Hirbit il-Haritiyyi, did not specify their exact period. Zero^talk 01:54, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Hopefully, I will continue research on this subject when I go to the Hebrew University Library in Jerusalem on this coming Sunday. If we cannot reach a consensus on this subject, we can at least mention the several views by credible authors.Davidbena (talk) 15:41, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

On Sunday, 21 August, I spent several hours browsing through archaeological and historical geographical sources at the Hebrew University library in Jerusalem, before going off to the Israel Museum. I made a particular effort to check the view of Michael Avi-Yonah with respect to Jaba near Carmel, and I was surprised to learn that he was somewhat ambivalent about its identification. In his book, Gazetteer of Roman Palestine, Qedem (5) - Monographs of the Institute of Archaeology, Jerusalem 1976, he speaks about Gabatha (Jebâta) and Gabaththa (Jaba, near Betar-Ilit) and Geba (et Tell) and Geba II (the Jaba of Samaria) - all of which he acknowledges are different places, although bearing similar names. He shows their respective places on the map. Then, when he speaks about Geba III (the Geva on Carmel, or what he specifically calls Gevʻa ha-Karmel and Jabaʻ, being a reference to our Jaba', Haifa Subdistrict), on page 60 in the same book, also marked on the map on p. 108, he identifies it with the Geva mentioned by Pliny, Natural History, ch. 5, but says nothing about this place being Josephus' Gaba (Geva) where Herod settled his veteran cavalry. When he speaks about Gaba Hippeum (i.e. Gaba of the horsemen; cavalry), on p. 57 in the same book, shown also on map in p. 106, he writes there for its identification: “el Harithiye ?”. Note here that he is uncertain about its proper identification and places a question-mark after the word. Avi-Yonah, therefore, distinguishes between Pliny's Geva (our Jaba of the Carmel) and Josephus description of Gaba in the Carmel and which Herod gave to his veteran cavalry.

What is interesting is that Walid Khalidi, in his book All that Remains (1992), p. 165, wrongly identified our Jaba in Carmel with the Jaba near Betar Ilit and which latter place Avi-Yonah calls Gabata. Khalidi obviously did not distinguish between the several places, and even goes so far as to cite its location 157120, which same location Avi-Yonah uses in his book Gazetteer of Roman Palestine to designate the Jaba near Betar Ilit, with a reference to Onomasticon 70:24 where the site is first mentioned.Davidbena (talk) 22:59, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

More on this subject: Benjamin Mazar, in his book The Early Biblical Period - Historical Studies, Jerusalem 1986, ISBN 965-221-005-6, pp. 211–212, writes of Gaba (Geva, Jaba) on this wise: "The problem of Gebaʻ, Gebaʻ-shemen and 'Gaba of the Cavalry' should be reconsidered. New archaeological finds show that 'Gaba of the Cavalry' should be located at Tell Abū Shūsha near Mishmar Haemeq. This identification is supported by several finds: a) a lead weight from the Roman period inscribed with the name of Gaba (Γαβη) and found on the slopes of the tell; b) coins of Gaba found on the tell and in its vicinity; and c) graves from the Roman period." [End Quote]. With all due respect, coins are like chattels and move from place to place, just as carrying a coin minted in Denver or San-Francisco does not mean that if it is found 500 miles away that that place must be identified as either Denver or San-Francisco. The logic here, of course, is faulty and based purely upon speculation. With that said, Benjamin Mazar goes on to write (ibid., p. 212): "As for Gaba of Eusebius, it should be identified with the deserted village of Jabaʿ on the western slopes of Mount Carmel."Davidbena (talk) 23:16, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

In addition to the above, I found this by Archibald Henderson, in Palestine - its Historical Geography, Edinburgh 1894, p. 200: "Geba (2). Geba of horsemen mentioned by Josephus is not to be confounded with preceding (i.e. the Geba located 5 miles north of Jerusalem); it (i.e. Geba of the horsemen) lies 12 miles north of Caesarea, still bearing same name (Wars II.viii.1; iii.iii.1)." [End Quote]. This man, who lived more than a hundred years ago when our Jaba was still settled by its Arab inhabitants, identifies it with the city spoken of by Josephus and used for Herod's horsemen.Davidbena (talk) 23:27, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

One more thing: Archaeologist, Shimon Applebaum, in his book, Judaea in Hellenistic and Roman Times, E.J.Brill: Leiden 1989, p. 71, writes explicitly that Gaba Hippeon is a site that is "uncertain," and in a footnote (ibid., note 8) he casts doubt on M. Avi-Yonah's suggestion that Gaba of the horsemen should be identified with the ruin, el-Ḥartiyeh. Quoting Applebaum (ibid.), he says: "For the site of Gaba, el Ḥartiyeh and Tel Maʿamer have been suggested (cf. M. Avi-Yonah, Hist. Geog. of Eretz Yisrael, Jerusalem 1963/4, p. 145; id. The Holy Land, Englewood Cliffs 1966, p. 101, n. 52) but no Herodian strata have been found at these places. More recently, Abbu Shusha near Mishmar ha-ʿEmeq has been proposed (2246.1633), certainly correctly, in view of the finds, including a weight bearing the city's name." [End Quote].Davidbena (talk) 00:53, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

1948 shooting

Ok, so User:Number 57 reverted my edit, to a completely wrong citation!! Checknote #146 in Morris, 2004, pp. 438- 439, note #146, p. 457 ...and you will see that it says NOTHING about shooting.

Morris mention shooting without giving any source on p. 438. On 441 he mention it again, and this times he gives source: notes #170, 171. And both of those notes goes to memos from 17 Sep. 1948, and 28 Sep. 1948!!!

In other words, there are NO notes from July, or earlier, which mention shooting at Jewish drivers, AFAIK. If I'm wrong, then please find such notes. Huldra (talk) 22:11, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Page 438 is included in the first reference, and that's where the information ("Their militiamen continued to snipe at Jewish traffic") is to be found. The fact that he doesn't give a source for this doesn't mean we should disregard it. As I said in the edit summary, you seem to be trying to WP:SYNTHesising some kind of point here. Number 57 22:26, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

The present reference, Morris, 2004, pp. 438- 439, note #146, p. 457, clearly indicate that the source is in note #146.

Which it is not.

So at least change the ref, so it is correct, that is only p. 438. And I have really looked for this, and Im not saying that is doesn't exist, but I have not found any references to the shooting before September 1948. If there are such references, please inform me of them. Huldra (talk) 22:32, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Again, you're veering into WP:SYNTH territory. We have a reliable source stating that the village militia were shooting at Jewish vehicles without any caveats regarding the date as to when the shooting was reported. Number 57 22:37, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Yah, but that is NOT in note #146, p. 457 ....which it presently says it is! Huldra (talk) 22:41, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Based on how I was taught to reference at uni, that doesn't matter, but to stop this going round in circles, I've changed it for you. Number 57 22:50, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

User:Zero0000 Morris use "vital" qualifier I changed it to essential do you have better suggestion?--Shrike (talk) 11:11, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I see it higher on the page. Zero^talk 11:32, 16 October 2017 (UTC)