Talk:Jack Russell Terrier/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Too many images?

I'm all for having images in an article, but this seems like overkill. First off, someone with a slower computer would have a hard time loading this article, given the amount of image files. Secondly, we don't need that many images to show what a Jack Russell looks like, much less a Parson Russell or any other dog breed. The non-Jack Russell images seem irrelevant, and of the remaining ones, we can probably trim off a few. It's to the point where it's distracting to read, so we definitely need to remove several images. The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk) 19:20, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

• Removed three of the images - better? Miyagawa (talk) 18:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, looks less cluttered now. Thanks- I don't mess with images just yet, I've managed to spectacularly destroy the formatting in articles a couple times, and I'll need a bit more practice before I do. The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk) 05:32, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

No worries, I left the Parson image in as I thought it highlighted the height difference between it and the JR. Miyagawa (talk) 11:13, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, that was a good idea. I'm liking it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk) 16:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Irish Jack Russells

Just reverted a change of image in the history section that added an image of an "Irish" Jack Russell Terrier. Note that unless referring the dog's nationality, there is no such thing as an Irish Jack Russell. The term is used to describe a specifically short legged JRT, which is actually more commonly called a Russell Terrier.

The use of the prefix "Irish" in dog terms should usually be taken suspiciously unless you know it's meant to be there (for instance, an Irish Water Spaniel). An example of this is selling American Pit Bull Terriers in the UK as "Irish Staffordshire Bull Terriers". Miyagawa (talk) 13:31, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Just reverted the addition of an Irish Jack Russell again. Miyagawa (talk) 22:20, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Intro - paragraph 2. - 7 April 2011

Added contradiction temp. Has the breed changed or not changed? Acabashi (talk) 12:56, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

The breed has changed. It was first bred as a fox hunting terrier, then a badger hunting terrier and is now an all round working terrier. Miyagawa (talk) 21:16, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I can well believe it, but the very obvious contradiction should be addressed rather than removing a request asking for support for one side of the contradictory argument. I have answered you more fully on your talk page. Acabashi (talk) 23:16, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the contradicting line. Miyagawa (talk) 23:29, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Great. Can you now add the cite you mentioned existed that supports the conflicting assertion: "It has gone through several changes over the years, through different use and conformation show standards set by kennel clubs"? Especially when there is a contradictory statement, and even though I agree with you from my non-NPOV position as a JRT owner, we cannot as you know, allow yours and my view to be presented as fact without proper evidence; it's good to know you have a credible source to add so that we don't have to remove this sentence too. Many thanks. Acabashi (talk) 01:00, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Please see WP:LEADCITE. The changes made to the Jack Russell Terrier are documented throughout the history section and that line is written as a general line to cover that information briefly. Miyagawa (talk) 11:19, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Given that the JRT has never been a kennel club breed, any statement that the breed has changed through "different use and conformation show standards set by kennel clubs" can be pretty much discounted as obviously false.

jdege (talk) 13:20, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I've changed the line from "conformation show standards" to "breed standards". Miyagawa (talk) 18:50, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

jrt to sit on his hind legs

why delete my photo on the jack russell? jack russell has this feature that is often sat on his hind legs ...as often Eddie Crane on Frasier ... so my picture describes a feature that I think is more useful than a jack running to catch a ball as they do many dogs!thanks  :) --Archita ^{(if you must)} 18:40, 24 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Archita78 (talk • contribs)

I've responded on you talk page, but to summarize here, a dog sitting is not unusual, and the text did not include a citation to prove that it was unusual and unique to the breed; and the image was of poor quality. Miyagawa (talk) 18:49, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

ok boss  :)  --Archita (if you must) 19:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Archita78 (talk • contribs)  

My previous note stands. The photo you keep adding is encyclopedic and adds nothing to the article, while the text contains a citation - it's from an unreliable source and doesn't actually reference the text you've added at all. Any edits in this way will be considered vandalism, and will be reverted. Miyagawa (talk) 09:30, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

"Beginers"

Hi, how about mentioning JRT from movie "Beginers" (2011) with Evan Mac Gregor? Dog there was pretty important, so i tthink it is worth mentioning, however I do not have good sources to know anything more about this dog. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.213.255.7 (talk) 15:51, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• Found a reference on the official site and adding it - it's the same dog actor as in Hotel for Dogs. Miyagawa (talk) 16:55, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Earth

From the OED (Earth n¹):

5. As a count noun: an animal's dwelling or hiding place; the hole or lair of a burrowing mammal, esp. a fox or badger.

The most recent example being 2006 "'Herald Express (Torquay) (Nexis) 21 June 8 Near one of the wildest earths I know on Dartmoor a vixen continues to educate her cubs in the survival business."

OED Burrow entry says:

"a. A hole or excavation made in the ground for a dwelling-place by rabbits, foxes and the like.

The most recent entry that links the word with Fox is 1552 quoted in a 1701 article.

In British English burrow is not usually used to describe a tunnel in which a fox lives. For clarity in hunting circles in England there are distinct words for these holes in the ground:

• [Badger] set.
• [Fox] earth.
• [Rabbit] warren (but an individual entrance to a warren is a burrow as is a small warren).
• [Otter] holt (an entrance to a lodge)

I suggest that in this article as it is about a type of fox terror, that the term "earth" is used instead of "burrow". -- PBS (talk) 00:42, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Burrow was used because these types of dogs while called types of fox terriers were not used exclusively to hunt foxes. For quite a while at the start of the 20th century they were used almost exclusively to hunt badgers. Therefore burrow was used to be more generic. Miyagawa (talk) 12:40, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Uggie

The acting dog Uggie has become so famous now that the film "The Artist" has been released that his absence from this article is a significant omission. Cognita (talk) 08:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

There's a section ready for him(Well-known Jack Russell terriers), find a ref and add him! The Interior (Talk) 08:28, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Lowercase breed names

If someone wants something to do, this article needs someone to go through it and restore all the dog breed names to uppercase as per the MOS update late last year. They were originally uppercase, but were reduced to lowercase during an nomination. Miyagawa (talk) 12:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 March 2012

Uggie, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uggie 205.175.113.46 (talk) 17:35, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Done — Bility (talk) 18:51, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 April 2012

Pattibradford (talk) 10:30, 13 April 2012 (UTC) Please add The American Russell Terrier Club to the "clubs" section because they are the Parent Club for the AKC Russell Terrier.

Thank you, Patti Bradford American Russell Terrier Club

Wouldn't that be better served on the Russell Terrier article? Speaking of which, I'll be sure to incorporate some information from your website when I finally get around to overhaul that article as the AKC timeline is particularly useful. Miyagawa (talk) 16:25, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Not done for now: Per Miyagawa's comment. We also tend to keep those lists as small as possible, by limiting them only to topics which meet WP:N and therefore have an existing article. I'm not sure if the American Russell Terrier Club meets WP:N, but if so, it might be a better candidate for inclusion here and elsewhere. Anyway, if you need further assistance, feel free to re-enable the requested edit template. Thanks!   — Jess· Δ♥ 03:51, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 April 2012

I would like to add the below comment to the 'On screen and in literature' section:

Eddie played the role of Martin Crane's companion in the acclaimed TV show Frasier which was broadcasted on NBC for eleven seasons, from September 16, 1993, to May 13, 2004, and won 37 prime-time Emmys during its 11-year run.

Bpmdevries (talk) 07:00, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Fine content, just needs a source. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 15:57, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Just to mention that Moose/Enzo who both played Eddie are already mentioned in the second paragraph of the On screen and in literature subsection. Miyagawa (talk) 20:16, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 April 2012

ref name=Ijackrussell cite book|last=Hughes|title=I,Jack Russell|publisher=Booth-Clibborn|isbn=ISBN-10: 1861543212 ISBN-13: 978-1861543219|url=http://www.abramsbooks.com/Books/I,_Jack_Russell-9781861543219.html Andyhughesurfer (talk) 22:20, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Question: What do you want the editors to do? Honette 01:48, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 00:06, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Andyhughesurfer I, Jack Russell: A photographer and Dog's Eye View. Published by Booth-Clibborn Editions 2012, http://www.abramsbooks.com/Books/I,_Jack_Russell-9781861543219.html -Andyhughesurfer (talk) 10:33, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Please add under the On screen and in literature the following. I,Jack Russell is documentary photography book about Jack Russell dogs by the artist and photographer Andrew Hughes (photographer) and published by Booth-Clibborn Editions. It includes texts and contributions by internationally renowned canine experts Alexandra Horowitz and John Bradshaw.

Thank you so much Andyhughesurfer (talk) 21:03, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 30 November 2012

Please add under the on screen and in literature the following.

I,Jack Russell is documentary photography book about Jack Russell dogs by the artist and photographer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Hughes_(photographer) and published by Booth-Clibborn Editions. It includes texts and contributions by internationally renowned canine experts Alexandra Horowitz and John Bradshaw. Andyhughesurfer (talk) 15:18, 30 November 2012 (UTC)thankyou

Not done: The proposed addition is highly promotional in tone. Even if that were corrected, it doesn't seem to quite fit with the content of the section, which is about fictional dogs or dogs in fictional contexts. Please note that a book about an article's subject isn't necessarily noteworthy even if it's authored by someone who has a Wikipedia article. As a side note, I note that the article Andrew Hughes (photographer) (incorrectly linked above) lacks any references. Rivertorch (talk) 06:10, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Russell Terrier

The shorter, stockier "Russell Terrier" lacks clear differentiation from the standard JRT. Most of the development of the Russell Terrier article looks to have been done by owners with partisan promotional interests. There is also a general lack of academic coverage on the subject, resulting in a reliance on copyvio breeder cruft for sourcing. With the 2009 UKC change in designation back to "Jack Russell Terrier" this variation should be a section of an article, not its own article. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:34, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I would disagree. These dogs are bred substantially smaller than any JRT's or Parson Russells, as their standard height is 12 in at the most. This is their defining quality as being functional ground dogs where as Parson's were bred for the show circuit as they were concerned with getting a set standard approved over functionality. JRT's have such a large range, their hunting purposes change on how tall the dog actually gets. With a Russell described here, you will get a small, functional terrier that will just about fit into any small hole and not fear going down it. I would rather see more written on this page about them rather than denote them to a JRT subtype. Parsons are their own, why shouldn't Russells be any different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.34.236.174 (talk) 00:05, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

You haven't addressed the issues I've laid out. Many people have their own opinion about these dog breeds. Few, if any, of them have proper sources to back that up. The 2009 change by the UKC would seem to indicate that this is not, in fact, its own breed. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:49, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Russell terrier has its own breed standard

The "Russell Terrier" is NOT a subtype of any dog. It has been recognized as a breed in July 2012 by the American Kennel Club.

• Here, the oficial breed AKC standard: http://www.akc.org/breeds/russell_terrier/breed_standard.cfm
• Here, some news about: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/29/russell-terrier-joins-the-list-of-akc-registered-breeds/ http://www.akc.org/press_center/article.cfm?article_id=4684
• Made its debut at the 137th Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/13/sports/russell-terriers-finally-get-their-turn-in-westminster-spotlight.html?_r=0

http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/breedresults.php?year=2013&breed=russell Regards —Frei sein (Talk to me!) 06:25, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Î ŢĦÍÑĶ ṬḤËȲ ŞĤǪǕŁÐ BƐ ṂẼṜĞËĎ Ἣἶ :) <3 u aLL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.127.23.100 (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2013 (UTC) --- the two articles contain conflicting information and are therefore confusing and should be merged.

russell terrier entry states; The name "Jack Russell Terrier" was never used to describe a breed of dog. Rather, it became a common name for any predominantly-white earth-working terrier after the death of the Reverend John Russell.

whilst the jack russel entry describes 3 breeds; The Jack Russell is a broad type, with a size range of 10–15 inches (25–38 cm). The Parson Russell is limited only to a middle range with a standard size of 12–14 inches (30–36 cm), while the Russell terrier is smaller at 8–12 inches (20–30 cm). Each breed has different physical proportions according to the standards of their breed clubs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.153.100.22 (talk) 14:19, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I propose a compromise

I disagree because the Russel Terrier is a different breed than the Jack Russel Terrier, and therefore deserves to have it's own article. I think that it would be ideal if we made a link on the Jack Russel Terrier page to the Russel Terrier page, and vice versa. --24.24.177.188 (talk) 23:19, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Half way through 2014 - We need to move forward

In my opinion, the Russell Terrier page should be merged into the Jack Russell Terrier page, and the photo needs to be changed. Let me explain why
There are 6 key documents when deciding on the merge and photo change, and these are;
1. The Jack Russell Terrier Club of Great Britain (JRTCGB) breed standard 'JACK RUSSELL TERRIER' http://jrtcgb.webs.com/breedstandard.htm
2. The Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) breed standard 'JACK RUSSELL TERRIER' http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/345g03-en.pdf
3. The United Kennel Club (UKC) breed standard 'JACK RUSSELL TERRIER' http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/Breeds/Terrier/JackRussellTerrier01012009
4. The American Kennel Club (AKC) breed standard 'RUSSELL TERRIER' http://www.akc.org/breeds/russell_terrier/index.cfm
5. The 'JACK RUSSELL TERRIER' Breed Lecture manual / presentation - from Australia http://lionheartjack.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Jack_Russell_Terrier_eng.pdf>
6. One 'PARSON RUSSELL TERRIER' Breed Standard http://www.parsonrussellterrierclub.co.uk/breed.html

When reading sources 1 through 5 you will notice that the characteristic and traits are very much similar, and somewhat different from reference 6. The article should be merged to emphasise the close relation between 'JACK RUSSELL TERRIER and 'RUSSELL TERRIER'. The merged article should draw on similarities, and if there are small differences these should mentioned as a sub heading. I personally cannot see enough difference in point 5, to justify why it should not be included into point 1 to 4, and therefore one article titled JACK RUSSELL TERRIER, making sure everyone knows that the AKC call it something different

Additonally.. both the RUSSELL TERRIER and the JACK RUSSELL TERRIER are quoting the same FCI standard. Therefore the Russell Terrier should be merged the Jack Russell Terrier

Please change Photo

The image clearly shows a 'PARSON RUSSELL TERRIER' type of dog. All the JACK RUSSELL TERRIER standards mentioned above 1 through 6.. all state 10 to 15 inches. The image of the dog is overly long legged, and an image that better reflects the standards 1 through 5 above would be more appropriate.

In addition the standards section below the photo shows FCI, AKC and other references... the image complies with none of these. Jack Russell proportion is 50% leg and 50 body.. as I said its an overly legging image.

that's the problem with the JRTCGB and FCI calling two clearly different types of dogs by the same name, and the problem with Wikipedia trying to combine them into one article. The JRTCGB breed is more similar to the Parson than it is to what the FCI calls the 'Jack Russell' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.3.193.222 (talk) 10:47, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

The problem is that anyone gives the AKC any credibility with certain (all?) breeds. The Jack Russell Terrier Club of America has set breed standards since the mid 70s and doesn't differentiate between Jack Russell terriers, "Parson" Russell terriers, or Russell terriers. They are all the same breed and should ALL be merged into a single page with a note that the AKC has been trying to push separate breeds. Ignore anything the AKC says about the JRT. --MP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.85.8.158 (talk) 15:11, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100428092333/http://www.wwwishbone.com/html/show/show.asp to http://www.wwwishbone.com/html/show/show.asp

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Inaccessible language

There are a few sentences in here that aren't written in an accessible style, with the overuse of abbreviations and other random terms that aren't in common usage. A good example is: "The working JRT is required to locate quarry in the earth, and then either bolt it or hold it in place until they are dug to." I have no idea what that sentence actually means. A lack of accessible language is generally the mark of a bad wikipedia article so if someone does understand sentences like this then it would be good to simplify it a bit (e.g. stop calling animals "quarry" for a start, which is a niche hunting term the vast majority of the English-speaking world has never heard of). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.9.207.43 (talk) 07:20, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Categories in Alphabetical Order or Not?

Previously I was told to add categories in alphabetical order. Therefore I wonder if there is any general guideline? --Canarian (talk) 20:22, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

@Canarian: You added the category for dog breeds, in contravention of WP:SUBCAT. I don't care if they're in alphabetical order, you don't add parent categories. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:26, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

OK, I was previously today told to do the otherwise: I had deleted a lot of parent categories from most of dog breeds, but I was told not to do so - I was critisized of having done "a lot of damage" by it. That's why I have been adding parent categories back. Now I'm pretty confused which way is preferred, as I was just previously guided to keep or add back the category "dog breeds"? (Here's an example: [1] --Canarian (talk) 20:31, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Huh. That's odd. 7&6=thirteen is dead wrong. Per WP:SUBCAT: "an article should be categorised as low down in the category hierarchy as possible, without duplication in parent categories above it" so you need not take my word for it. He owes you an apology. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:46, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

I could be wrong. I find the inclusion of categories to be something like the Matryoshka principle. And for the readers benefit, I do think that it is better to err on the side of too many categories (too much of the relevant) to too few. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:50, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

If an apology is owed, then one is tendered. I think Chris Troutman that your demand here is a little over the top. But de minimus non curat lex. Surely we have more consequential matters to dispute over. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:08, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

7&6=thirteen, I don't use a de minimis standard; I'm in the "each's and every's" business. Attention to detail is a must. Wikipedia is a collaborative project. Adherence to our policies and guidelines (as well as MoS) helps us work together. Editing by our own preferences is corrosive to our collaboration. Reprimanding someone to follow preferences rather than the established rules compounds the problem. I don't want an unhappy interaction with either Canarian or you, which is why I regret what I've been forced to explain in this regard. As I understand that you cede the point, I will let the matter drop. Chris Troutman (talk) 22:03, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

One has to pick their battles. Life is short. The Gambler (song) comes to mind. I always liked Kenny Rogers's version via YouTube. Just sayin... Cheers. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 22:39, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Kennel

Kennel: As is well stated in this article Jack Russell Terriers can dig and tunnel. Thus, you probably already figured out that you'll have to put some fencing below ground level. But, what is not mentioned as much in this article is that they are highly intelligent and will climb. They climbed out of our 60 inch fencing and caused problems in the neighborhood. So, if you are considering an outdoor kennel to keep one, pleased be advised (and hopefully pleased that we shared this information with you) that they might just climb right out of their pen. We learned by experience the hard way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:704:9F01:B14D:F46F:DAA5:6C6A (talk) 11:09, 3 November 2018 Evidence or reliable source can be found in this web page from Atascazoo Animal Hospital: https://atascazooanimalhospital.com/client-resources/breed-info/jack-russell-terrier/(UTC)

Please find some reliable sources that support your assertion. Your observations and experience aren't valid source material. Chris Troutman (talk) 12:39, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Repeated line that oddly has two different references - but it does not need to be in both places

That several modern breeds trace lineage 1) last line of Sporting Parson 2) last line of Post World War II - possibly it was moved and mistaken as a deletion. 2600:8807:4809:E100:20A9:768D:8976:573 (talk) 11:26, 24 January 2022 (UTC) (dfoofnik not signed in)

Crossbreed

Why is there a section on a single crossbreed? Is it really notable? Or are we opening a can of worms? Annwfwn (talk) 17:09, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm inclined to say that we should not mention crossbreeds here unless they are notable enough to warrant their own articles. The single example we currently mention, the Jackabee, apparently is not. That's just a redirect to List of dog crossbreeds, where it is mentioned. And there's already a thread on that list's talk page (by user:SkrikerandTrash) questioning the lack of inclusion criteria for that list). Yesterday there were attempts to mention the Jack Chi (Jack Russel terrier/Chihuahua) here, and it doesn't even appear on List of dog crossbreeds. Meters (talk) 19:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I'd agree, for both this and other breed articles.

If I were to suggest a standard for notability it would be centered on the notability to dog professionals and researchers (resulting in a high number of potential quality citations). For example, Golden Retriever/Labrador crosses have been studied several times in relation to their use by guide dog organizations, Lurchers have a long and unique history of use by hunters, and Doodles overall are widely discussed and the subject of some controversy in the dog world. (I suspect it would also actually be useful to collapse the Doodle pages into a single page on Doodles, as the separate pages are typically repeating the same information, or to have a different page they can all link out to with, for example, detailed information on Doodles' overall history and controversy.) I know there are some terrier crosses that are actually significant in the hunting/crittering world but am not knowledgeable on the details.

I am not sure most dog professionals would have heard the term "Jackabee" anywhere before - non-notable. On List of dog crossbreeds, it was also cited to an article (Andersen, Erin (23 July 2006). "Custom canines". Lincoln Journal Star) that I'm not sure meets the standards for a reference on Wikipedia, at least in this case.

I'm a new editor and while I'd be willing to put in time attempting to improve this I'm unsure I'm experienced enough to not make major mistakes. SkrikerandTrash (talk) 23:03, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

There is a standard for breed notability here. I'm not sure how you would safely sort out the designer dogs given that some folks are breeding some of them as guide dogs, but I would support an overhaul of the page Dog_crossbreed. If you do decide, Ike Matthews talks about his preference for crosses for ratting as you've mentioned in his book here: [2]. I also tagged this online book for having tons on crossbreeds: [3]

Just planting seeds... Annwfwn (talk) 17:34, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Here's another one that is more recent, page 33, the writer talks about when the Norwegian sled dog clubs started allowing mixed breeds to mush, which led to the creation of the Eurohound and the Greyster, [4] Annwfwn (talk)

"Jackahuahua" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Jackahuahua has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 14 § Jackahuahua until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 16:41, 14 April 2024 (UTC)