Talk:Jacob Safra

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I took the redirect out since Jacob Safra and Jacqui Safra are NOT the same person. Jacob Safra is the father of the famous arms-dealer and banker Edmond Safra. They are related but not the same people. Stevenmitchell 08:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

2 You have broadcast a false info about Jacob SAFRA. This person was born in Aleppo (Syria) in 1891. His family founded the first banking institution in Aleppo (read again the presentation written on the official site of SAFRA GROUP to verify the authenticity of my statements). He then left for Beirut in 1920 to found a bank there. That means he was 29 when he left for Lebanon. His parents are Syrians from the city of Aleppo. His wife is his own cousin (Esther SAFRA). In 1949, he left Lebanon to join Italy and then Brazil in 1952. In this case, he must be Syrian before all, then he could have other nationalities by naturalization. What is known about him that he had the Brazilian nationality by naturalization, but nothing proves that he was naturalized in Lebanon, especially that Lebanon does not even naturalize a Syrian who has a Lebanese mother, then how you explain That a Syrian born to a Syrian dad and mom, on Syrian soil, is a Lebanese man? What amazed me more is that you have canceled the rectification I made on your article without even discussing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghayadof (talk • contribs) 02:03, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

I removed the claim that his nationality is Lebanese. Although there are three references after the initial sentence one was blocked by my browser is spyware so I did not look at it. Another is not online. The first is the New York Times which is a solid reference but it doesn't claim he is Lebanese merely that he once lived in Lebanon. We need much better sourcing if we are to include his nationality.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:32, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Forbes says he’s Syrian I mean what’s wrong with you? https://www.forbes.com/profile/joseph-safra/

Tariq sofian (talk) 06:51, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

The Lebanese origins of the Safra family

Jacob Safra, father of Joseph, Edmond and Moise, obtained Lebanese nationality eventhough he was born in Aleppo in 1891 as can be seen here-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K69F-V4X

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VJ1K-FNS

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKDR-91QW

Since 1921, in order for someone to obtain the Lebanese nationality (even if born outside of Lebanon) HIS FATHER NEEDS TO HAVE BEEN BORN IN LEBANON as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_nationality_law and someone born in Lebanon to a foreign father no matter for how long that person resides in Lebanon CANNOT obtain citizenship as you can see in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization#Summary_by_country Only a foreign woman married to a Lebanese citizen can obtain the citizenship by naturalization.

This means that Jacob's father Eliahu/Eli, eventhough he resided in Aleppo which is where Jacob was born in 1891, HAD TO BE BORN IN LEBANON. So far I have not found a document that indicates where his father Eliahu and his brothers Joseph and David as well as his grandfather Yacoub were originally born (Ezra, another brother of Eliahu, uncle of Jacob, seems to have been born in Alepo according to https://farhi.org/wc131/wc131_428.html) but the fact the Jacob got Lebanese citizenship increases the likability that his father Eliahu was born in Lebanon.

Marie Dwek (2nd wife of Jacob Safra) who obtained Lebanese nationality due to her marriage to Jacob- https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKDR-9172

All of the children of Jacob and Esther Safra (Moise, Edmond, Joseph and the rest) were born in Beirut and had Lebanese nationality as can be seen here

-Joseph- https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V1S7-YCM

-Edmond- https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKDR-9V4X

-Moise- https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKDR-9VZQ

-Hughete- https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKDR-9135

-Arlette- https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2S7-VVJN

Jacob Safra's uncle, Ezra Safra, the founder of Safra Feres Co. in Aleppo, died in Aley, Lebanon in 1951 as can be seen here https://farhi.org/wc53/wc53_335.html and is buried in Beirut as can be seen here https://www.sephardicgen.com/databases/BeirutCemeterySearchEngine.php?NoKind=exact&NoMax=&SurnameSoundex=S160&SurnameKind=sounds&SurnameMax=Safra&GivenNameKind=contains&GivenNameSoundex=&GivenNameMax=&FathersNameKind=exact&FathersNameMax=&SpousessurnameKind=contains&SpousessurnameSoundex=&SpousessurnameMax=&SpousesGivenNameKind=contains&SpousesGivenNameSoundex=&SpousesGivenNameMax=&GenderKind=exact&GenderMax=&GregorianDateofDeathDayKind=exact&GregorianDateofDeathDayMax=&GregorianDateofDeathMonthKind=exact&GregorianDateofDeathMonthMax=&GregorianDateofDeathYearKind=exact&GregorianDateofDeathYearMax=&HebrewDateofDeathKind=exact&HebrewDateofDeathMax=&AgeyearsKind=exact&AgeyearsMax=&TombstonematerialKind=exact&TombstonematerialMax=&StateofGraveKind=exact&StateofGraveMax=&NotesKind=exact&NotesMax=&offset=1&pagesize=20

Jacob Safra's wife, Esther Safra (Jacob's cousin), and mother of Joseph, Edmond and Moise also died in Beirut in 1943 and is buried in Beirut as can be seen in the above link.

In Lebanon, there is a village called Safra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safra,_Lebanon and they could come from there or settled there for many generations and got their name from there. The Safras were Mizrahi and spoke Arabic, lets not forget that. When sources say they were Sephardic Jews it actually means they adopted the Sephardic rites and perhaps Ladino language into their family when they mixed with exiled Sephardic Jews from Iberia.

Some sources say that the Safras were originally merchants from northern Lebanon such as this one https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2000/oct/29/features.magazine47

Its important to understand that just because a merchant or a merchant family traded in Aleppo and established business there and one or two generations were born there does not mean the family has to be originally from Aleppo or Syrian.

A Halabi and the Halabi surname also means those who traded with Aleppo, not just those who are from originally from Aleppo, which is why there are a various Lebanese Christian families with the surname Halabi/Halaby/Halabe as you can see in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabi_(surname). This Halabi merchants traded in Istanbul, Aleppo, Beirut and Cairo/Alexandria and where involved in the domestic/regional/terrestrial trade in that network usually of silk and cotton. A couple of examples are:

-Najeeb Halabi, former CEO of Pam American Airlines and father of Queen Nour of Jordan, whose father emigrated to America from Zahle, Lebanon. Najeeb Halabi thought his ancestors originally came from Aleppo because of his last name but there is no evidence of this and his ancestors could have just been Halabi merchants from Lebanon, not necesarily from Aleppo per se as discussed by Henry Louis Gates in Faces of America in https://books.google.se/books?id=meYbj1E6Ki8C&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=Almas+Mallouk+Halaby&source=bl&ots=rFkkzjZFO4&sig=ACfU3U3hlqMIm1wobTTCA4erRHx_BTcK9A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwij6KK667PoAhXPwosKHYUUDyEQ6AEwAnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Almas%20Mallouk%20Halaby&f=false.

-The Daher family of France founders of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daher. The Daher family was a Halabi family that traded wool and cooton that arrived to France from Alepo in the 1850s https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Daher. Some of the families far back ancestors married in Istanbul. https://gw.geneanet.org/wikifrat?lang=en&p=paul&n=daher. However the Dahers are a Christian family originally from Lebanon, having settled there from Iraq in 1600 (original spelling is Dagher) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daher_(disambiguation).

-The Sedaka/Sadaka jewish family of Lebanon that was also a Halabi family that traded with Aleppo-Istanbul-Beirut-Cairo which is why Neil Sedaka's grandparents were born in Istanbul and came with his family from there. The Sedakas/Sadaka is a jewish family originally from Lebanon as you can see in the Montefiori census that the family lived in Sidon in 1839 and in Beirut in 1849 here https://www.sephardicgen.com/databases/LebanonSurnamesSearchEngine.php?SurnameKind=exact&SurnameSoundex=&SurnameMax=Sadaka&SourceIKind=exact&SourceIMax=&SourceIIKind=exact&SourceIIMax=&SourceIIIKind=exact&SourceIIIMax=&SourceIVKind=exact&SourceIVMax=&NotesKind=exact&NotesMax=&offset=1&pagesize=20 You can see the oldest burials there is record of the Sadaka family in the Jewish cementery of Beirut here https://www.sephardicgen.com/databases/BeirutCemeterySearchEngine.php?NoKind=exact&NoMax=&SurnameKind=contains&SurnameSoundex=&SurnameMax=Sadaka&GivenNameKind=contains&GivenNameSoundex=&GivenNameMax=&FathersNameKind=exact&FathersNameMax=&SpousessurnameKind=contains&SpousessurnameSoundex=&SpousessurnameMax=&SpousesGivenNameKind=contains&SpousesGivenNameSoundex=&SpousesGivenNameMax=&GenderKind=exact&GenderMax=&GregorianDateofDeathDayKind=exact&GregorianDateofDeathDayMax=&GregorianDateofDeathMonthKind=exact&GregorianDateofDeathMonthMax=&GregorianDateofDeathYearKind=exact&GregorianDateofDeathYearMax=&HebrewDateofDeathKind=exact&HebrewDateofDeathMax=&AgeyearsKind=exact&AgeyearsMax=&TombstonematerialKind=exact&TombstonematerialMax=&StateofGraveKind=exact&StateofGraveMax=&NotesKind=exact&NotesMax=&offset=1&pagesize=20Chris O' Hare (talk) 14:44, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

The Syrian origins of the Safras per their official websites

According to two annual reports by J. Safra Sarasin, a private bank owned by Safra Group, the Safra family originally came from Aleppo and then relocated to Beirut.

(Page 28) https://publications.jsafrasarasin.com/publ-dl-ch/dl-discl?dl=381995ECA9162A691ED93C5EA7E24B5482EEA3F979F183D257B761138A22C59BAEB08CF731936604DFD5A77DA4A81D6D

(Page 18)

https://jsafrasarasin.com/content/dam/jsafrasarasin/company/bank-annual-report/annual_report_2015.pdf.coredownload.inline.pdf

A book published on the official website of Edmond Safra, and has the signature of Edmond's wife, says the Safra family originally came from Aleppo and then relocated to Beirut. Page 6, version 2015.

https://www.edmondjsafra.org/book/

This settles it, the family is originally from Aleppo and not Lebanon. Whatsupkarren (talk) 10:49, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

@Chris O' Hare

Again, FamilySearch is an unreliable user generated source according to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources

This is not the first time youve been told so by me and others.

Jacob was born in Syria his family had been living in Aleppo for centuries. So he was Syrian. Possibly given the Lebanese nationality. Whatsupkarren (talk) 14:55, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Possibly given Lebanese nationality? Dont you see that on the official government acts? This is why you will be reported. All jews that settled in Lebanon were given Lebanese nationality after Syria kicked them all out and took away their nationality. Its funny how now as a Syrian or someone of Syrian descent you want to make them Syrian when Syria didnt welcome them and it was Lebanon that welcomed them and allowed their businesses to flourish but i guess thats another topic.

You have a deep hate for anything Lebanese and Phoenician which is embarrassing considering the million Syrians that Lebanon has given refugee/asylum to.

Familysearch has one section which is user-generated and another database section which contains official government acts such marriage acts, migration acts, birth certificates, etc. Familysearch's database is the go to source of all genealogists anywhere. Henry Louis Gates bases his whole show in PBS called "Finding your own Roots" on familysearch's database of official documents. Chris O' Hare (talk) 15:04, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Stick to the topic I'm not interested in having off-topic discussions with you here on the talk page, see WP:TALK#US

You need a secondary source that says he was given the Lebanese nationality to support the primary source. The article can be edited in such a way that explains that Jacob was Syrian born in Syria and later moved to lebanon and received its nationality. But calling him purely Lebanese is very inaccurate.

Me and others have explained to you that FamilySearch is not a reliable source, again see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources Whatsupkarren (talk) 15:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I would stick to the topic but your edits have always revealed just that- a hate driven agenda fueled by your insecurities and lack of understanding or plain ignorance of the history of the region, which disqualifies you from being a good contributor here.

You can rephrase it to Jacob Safra being Syrian-Lebanese, but in his nationality infobox Lebanese is what the official documentation says.

In the past i have discussed plenty of times with you. This time im just going to gather your edit wars with several editors including me as proof of your disservice to Wikipedia. Im pretty sure im not the only one here tired of your bullshit. Chris O' Hare (talk) 16:13, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

You barely discussed with me in the past, not many times, and it was me who would start those discussions not you, you would always aggressively revert my edits even during ongoing discussions. In those discussions you were proven wrong. There's nothing I did that shows lack of understanding of history. Perhaps I'm not well informed about YOUR version of history.

But Jacob wasn't Syrian Lebanese, he was a Syrian born in Syria to a family of Syrian jewish descent, who possibly got naturalized, you need reliable secondary sources that say that. FamilySearch is a primary source and user generated and thus it's unreliable, anyway, I will seek a third opinion Whatsupkarren (talk) 18:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Well I discussed with you until me and the administrator found out about your 15+ sock puppets. In those discussions I was proven wrong? So far you are the one that has lost almost all your discussions with dozens of editors here by looking at your edits. It is the same delusional thinking that doesnt make you a service here.

When someone is born somewhere and later obtains the nationality of another country that is exactly what the subject becomes. Ardem Patapoutian became Lebanese-American after obtaining his nationality. This is again why I will report you. You are making everyone here work harder explaining to you obvious things, which shows your mental incompetence which is required to be a good contributor here, which is a violation of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:You_don%27t_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue Chris O' Hare (talk) 18:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Here's it again, you can't control yourself and keep making attacks on other editors.

The difference is that we need reliable secondary sources that say Jacob was naturalized. If you find such sources then I wouldn't mind calling him Syrian-Lebanese. Is it that hard to understand ? For this we should seek a third opinion. the problem is you just added that he was only lebanese and didn't mention that he was Syrian clearly showing your nationalist agenda

In the the last two discussions which we had you were proven wrong you asked me to seek a third opinion which i did and the third opinion agreed with me and explained to you that your sources weren't reliable. Yet you are still using the same exact sources here which clearly shows that you understand that your behavior is disruptive, and decided to keep at it. Plus, you were also blocked before for edit warring and sockpuppetry. Whatsupkarren (talk) 18:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Accusing other editors of attacking you is one of the many tactics you have tried and keep trying here in Wikipedia. When your 15+ sock puppets strategy failed you and got you banned, now you are back to keep gaming the system with your sleazy tactics:

-Removing statements because you "cant find reliable sources" like you did in the Karine Nahon article https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Karine_Nahon&diff=prev&oldid=1239026536. I do a bit of work and I find a reliable source in 5 minutes.

-I find a reliable source in plain ENGLISH but then you game the system again by saying the source is not allowed for various reasons (copyright infringement, primary source, claiming the source is not legitimate according to YOU) like you did in the Emilio Estefan article https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Emilio_Estefan&diff=prev&oldid=1222535948 as well as in the Wadi Al Nasara article https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wadi_al-Nasara&diff=prev&oldid=1212417675. This is a disservice to the readers here that are looking for facts and truth but are left with distorted lies and ignorance due to you gaming the system.

-When you cant question the source you simply ignore what the source says or say that thats not what the source says and still remove the sourced content like you did in the Emesene dynasty article https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Emesene_dynasty&diff=prev&oldid=1233735056

-When you cant twist what the sources says through rewording to imply something else that is not intended by the author and violating WP:SYN you either simply remove the sourced content or start rambling in the talk page and playing the ignorant role forcing everyone to explain to you the policies like you did in the Paul Anka article here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Paul_Anka#Parent's_descent even though there are 3 different sources of Paul Anka HIMSELF stating the opposite of what you are trying to push.

-When editors explain things to you in the Talk page, you keep playing the dumb role as part of your sleaziness and then say you will get a 3rd opinion. You find 1 editor that agrees with you and then you get away with removing the sourced content like you did here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wadi_al-Nasara.

Then you keep repeating your same disruptive recipe over and over in new articles you find have someone of Lebanese ancestry or any article you want to connect to Syria. Im going to report your pattern and see what your "3rd opinion" buddies say.

I wasnt blocked for sockpuppetry. You were. I have other accounts used to edit different topics unrelated to each other for privacy for which I was investigated and CLEARED. You were BANNED FOR LIFE for using 15+ sock puppets in the same discussions with editors to manipulate your ways through. Im not even sure how they let you back into editing here again. Chris O' Hare (talk) 04:46, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

“Removing statements because you "cant find reliable sources" like you did in the Karine Nahon”

It was you who added [[1]] this claim without backing it up with sources, it is your responsibility to source your edits not mine.

per WP:BLP: “Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source”

And when you added a sourced edit, I didn’t remove it, even though the source as I translated it, doesn’t say they were here parents were Lebanese, it says they immigrated from Lebanon.

“Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page”

This is a very basic rule you should follow.

- Regarding Emilio Estefan:

per WP:VIDEOREF

“Linking to online videos can be acceptable if it is demonstrated that the content was posted by the copyright holder or with their permission”

“If using the link as a source to support article content, then you must establish that the uploader and the video meet the standards for a reliable source”

“You may not link to any copyright violation, such as a music video or television show that has been uploaded illegally”

so no, your source is unreliable, and he doesn't even say in the video that he doesn't have Syrian ancestry.you also removed a reliable source “The Washington Post”.

there are many videos in which Omar Sharif for example says that ALL of his ancestors were from modern day Syria, and not Lebanon. Yet we don’t use these videos.

The source which you added to Lebanonize the people of Wadi al nasara was simply unreliable, even if you don’t want to call it so, it was me who started a discussion while you were just reverting my edits. And it was me who seeked a third opinion. There are countless Arabic sources of the same level of that source which you’re using that say bs like Phoenicians were immigrants from the Arabian peninsula, the Arab origin of the Syriac people, the Yemeni origins of the Maronite people. Not any source is reliable, yeah? This is very basic

-Regarding the emesene dynasty: I explained very well why I removed the content which I removed. You were using and taking the sources out of their contexts and cherry picking what is said in the books. I didn’t find in the cited book that Heliodorus of Emesa was a descendent of the Emesene dynasty. You could’ve started a discussion on the Talk Page but you clearly can't defend any of your disruptive edits

-Regarding Paul Anka, again, you’re clearly lying, I only wanted to add that he states in his autobiography that his ancestors came from Bab Touma, nothing more, nothing less. And keep that both of his parents were Lebanese. You can read what I said in the discussion. You’re clearly playing games here.

you clearly show a lack of understanding of the basic policies of Wikipedia, the problem is you’ve been a user here for years, if you still can’t get your head around these then I think you shouldn’t be on Wikipedia per WP:COMPETENCE

I was unbanned after I proved to the admins that I improved my manner and behavior, and educated myself with Wikipedia’s policies and rules, you still violate the most central policies of Wikipedia and hasn't improved your behavior towards other editors. Whatsupkarren (talk) 07:31, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

You're also still misusing this talk page, this is not relevant to the talk page. Whatsupkarren (talk) 07:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)