Talk:Jacques Marchais Museum of Tibetan Art/Archives/2013

Jacques Marchais and Jacqueline Norma Klauber

Recently an editor removed from the article the statement that Jacques Marchais was also known as Jacqueline Norma Klauber (1887-1948). The founding of the museum by Klauber is noted in the 1998 article in the New York Times already provided as reference #5. Unless someone thinks that the New York Times is mistaken, I suggest that this useful and important information about Klauber be restored to the article, since it's a matter of public record. In another reference, the curator Sarah Johnson notes that Jacques Marchais lived from 1887 to 1948. Even if it happens the museum prefers to be reticent about the real name of its founder, that fact should not inflluence our valid collection of publicly available information. EdJohnston (talk) 19:00, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I'd added it and I thought I put it back after the recent rounds of reverts. The issue, as you can see here is the museum's curator doesn't want that included. She was blocked for the promotional/role account name. While I think the museum wants what they see as 'right' in there, I am not comfortable with sourcing the article entirely to meet the museum's wants and research -- the author is the current curator. It's published primary sources, but I don't know that it doesn't conform solely to museum POV... TRAVELLINGCARI^{My story}_{Tell me yours} 19:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

ETA, I see what happened. I'm dubious about this apparent SPA whose first edit is this museum-disputed fact. TRAVELLINGCARI^{My story}_{Tell me yours} 19:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

At http://www.tibetanmuseum.org/site.htm, there is a listing which offers 'Klauber' as Jacques Marchais' married name. If this is the institution's own web site, how can a representative of the museum be arguing that the name is incorrect? EdJohnston (talk) 23:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

From what I gather from the info in the past edit summaries and the message on my talk page, it's more at issue of whether she used the name or not. I agree, it's contradictory and I don't understand the point of burying it. TRAVELLINGCARI^{My story}_{Tell me yours} 04:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Name issue - clarification

For Carianne and Ed Johnson- The 1998 article by Wong was incorrect- my claim is that Marchais never used 'Jacqueline' or 'Norma' in her name. She married Harry Klauber around 1920, so legally that was her surname, but she never used it in her professional or personal life. The museum's want is to have accurate historical information on record and to clear up inaccurate references. When you say that "the museum prefers to be reticent about the real name of its founder," this is incorrect. The museum wants to have accurate information about its founder available, and this also implies that Jacques Marchais is not her "real name." There is nothing promotional about wanting the record to be correct. When you write "I don't understand the point of burying it" about her name, I don't understand your point. There is no attempt to "bury" anything, simply to remove incorrect variations of Marchais' name which were never used by her in her lifetime. I can't understand why one would want to continue to repeat a misuse. Also, the center was established in 1945, which can be verified by viewing the incorporation documents filed with NY State. Thanks, Sarah —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarah108j (talk • contribs) 19:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the reference to the Klauber name, per the above and per the request at Editor Assistance here. The Klauber name is linked to an article written by the person above; the excerpt available online does not include the Klauber information, and the author herself is stating that it is not present in the article. Risker (talk) 22:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Ignoring the COI issues here for a moment the museum itself acknowledges the name was used. Can we address that? TRAVELLINGCARI^{My story}_{Tell me yours} 15:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Klauber in the New York Times (full text), also here (also full text), and multiple refs here. I strongly disagree with removing this at the current curator's request. Will not re-add now so as to avoid edit war, but I think taking it out is showing bias. TRAVELLINGCARI^{My story}_{Tell me yours} 15:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I've restored the Klauber reference via this new sentence: A writer in the New York Times referred to the museums's founder under the name Jacqueline Klauber, noting that she used Marchais as her professional name. EdJohnston (talk) 15:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Can anyone tell me why it is so critical to have the social name of the founder of the museum in the article that is about the museum? I mean...this is bordering on undue weight, as it has no relevance to the museum itself. Risker (talk) 16:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Ed. Risker, I hardly think it's undue weight for something the museum itself confirms. It's her name, it's a fact in multiple sources. It's, according to some sources, the name she was using when she founded the museum. I don't see the issue, can you explain it? TRAVELLINGCARI^{My story}_{Tell me yours} 16:13, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

If someone is known in the art world under more than one name, why is it a service to remove one of the names? If the name is significant enough to be used in the New York Times, that suggests that it may have currency for referring to her work. For example, the summary of this book about her museum's collections listed at Amazon mentions the name Klauber, suggesting that the name probably appears in the book itself. EdJohnston (talk) 16:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I would like to clarify that I do not dispute that Marchais' married name was Klauber; I dispute the names 'Jacqueline' and 'Norma.' Just to clarify, Jacques Marchais was born in 1887 as Jacques Marchais Coblentz and died in 1948 as Jacques Marchais Klauber. She used Jacques Marchais as her professional name. She never used the name Jacqueline Klauber- never used the feminine form 'Jacqueline' at all and her name was her trademark. She was known in her personal and professional life as Jacques Marchais. Most of the misinformation about Marchais was due to a 1996 essay published in the Museum's catalog which contains some inaccuracies that have been corrected in more recent work on her, due to new geneological and archival material which has been explored in greater depth. Unfortunately, when misinformation appears in print, people keep reprinting it. My interest here was in correcting the multiple odd variations of her name. Perhaps, that is part of the Museum's story and Marchais' story- that there was so much misinformation circulating for so long. Sarah108j (talk) 18:01, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

If the misinformation was corrected in some later publication, we could cite that publication. If it is one that you have access to, we may not be able to see it, but perhaps we could ask you questions about it. EdJohnston (talk) 19:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The information was published in two articles written in 2007: Sarah Johnson, "From Staten Island to Shangri-La: The Collecting Life of Jacques Marchais," Orientations Vol. 38 No. 4, May 2007, pp. 85-90 and Johnson, "Jacques Marchais Museum of Tibetan Art," Asian Art Newspaper, April 2007. Every claim made about Marchais in both of these articles can be backed up with historical documentation from the Museum's own archive as well as historic newspaper articles, correspondence, and geneological information. The articles may not be available online, but I don't think this makes the information in them any less verifiable.Sarah108j (talk) 19:12, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

It's good to have publications. But since you appear to be the author of both articles, for Wikipedia purposes this does not count as third-party confirmation. These sources are not independent of the museum itself. EdJohnston (talk) 19:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok- I understand. It's unfortunate that the 1998 & 2001 NY Times articles contain the error and that this info is included on the current article.Sarah108j (talk) 19:44, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Here are some additional third-party sources: Jason Paderson, "Celebrating 60 serene years of Tibetan art on Lighthouse Hill," Monday, March 19, 2007, Staten Island Advance; Michael J. Fressola, "The Woman who built Shangri-La: new exhibit uncovers more information about the Tibetan Museum founder," Sunday, March 18, 2007, Staten Island Advance, Section E1-E2; and Katheryn Carse, "Wanted: Staten Islanders who knew Jacques Marchais," Sunday, August 26, 2007, Staten Island Advance, D3.Sarah108j (talk) 14:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

(outdent for clarity) The Staten Island Advance is notorious for pulling down their archives but I'm going to look for copies of those articles. I'm curious do they specifically say she never used the name or just don't mention her by that name? I wouldn't expect every source to list both of her names so some from one paper omitting it doesn't seem to me to be complete proof that she didn't when another NYT article listed that name as well as [http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/ger/245403.shtml a number of excerpts of this book, with further mentions here. How could they all be wrong? Also the museum still mentions it and if it was wrong, why haven't you as the curator corrected it? That's the crux of my issue, I don't doubt that you've done research that appears to show she didn't use Klauber, but I don't know how it can prove she never did, if that makes sense. I'm going to be a bit slow at responding in the next few days but I'm still here and involved TRAVELLINGCARI^{My story}_{Tell me yours} 15:43, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The article you listed above was written in 1989. The others cited on the article page are from 1998 and 2001. While the NYTimes is a credible source, the information available to the Times prior to 2007 was based on one published account that had inaccuracies. Even if a Times reporter fact-checked with the museum, the museum's information at that point was based on a published essay that often relied on assumption rather than in-depth research. If you can kindly read my above posts, I am not disputing that her name was Jacques Marchais Klauber. I am disputing that she used the name 'Jacqueline' or 'Norma' or used the name 'Mrs. Klauber' in her personal or professional life. There has been some confusion that she went by an adopted name or a nom-de-plume. By doing the biographical exhibition and publishing articles on Marchais, I was in essence correcting past misconceptions, and I used source material that proved the relevant points. Among such source materials is a letter written by her to a gallery client explaining that she did not go by the name Klauber, but by Jacques Marchais. You are free to access any of this historic material through the museum's archive. If you doubt I've done research that proves she never used the name 'Jacqueline Norma Klauber', then I encourage you to read the Orientations article. By the way, one of the SI Advance articles does address the issue of the multiple names. Let me put it this way, if you can find any specific piece of information from Marchais' lifetime where she used 'Jacqueline Klauber' or 'Jacqueline Norma Klauber' or that proves that her name wasn't Jacques Marchais, I would be extremely interested to see it in order to clarify the historic record. My overall point is that it is possible for the NYTimes to have gotten her name wrong, because beginning in 1948, one of the people handling Marchais' estate befuddled her biographical information and it kept being repeated in print and in oral history. Believe me, it was a real surprise finding that certain aspects of her life that had been considered embellishments were, in fact, real stories verifiable through actual source material.Sarah108j (talk) 12:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)