Talk:Jakub Petružálek

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to remove diacritics at this time. This is certain to be a controversial close, because diacritics have always been a contentious issue here. Some strong arguments have been offered for keeping the article as it is, and the practice of removing diacritics does not seem to enjoy the consensus support that it once did. This has been a long time coming, and support for diacritics has grown steadily as long as I've been working in Requested Moves; i.e., about 5 years. - GTBacchus^(talk) 19:57, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

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Jakub Petružálek → Jakub Petruzalek – All sources used in the article (even the non-English source [1]) show the name spelled without diacritics. Dolovis (talk) 13:10, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose That would be because that is a finish site not a czech one. Took me all of one second to find a reliable source here. Are you really going to continue flooding requested moves with these when you have been asked to stop and discuss at a centralized location? Especially considering that discussion clearly looks like consensus is starting to appear to be against you? Or are you just going to continue making these WP:POINT nominations? -DJSasso (talk) 13:55, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Clearly the most common name in reliable English sources. A google news archive search shows 942 hits for "Jakub Petruzalek" compared to only 10 for "Jakub Petružálek". I'm not sure why the ice hockey project are so adamant about using diacritics, but a WikiProject consensus does not trump policy (WP:AT). Jenks24 (talk) 19:30, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

  AT actually supports the use of them. As is actually being discussed by this very user on the related guideline. The key to AT is reliable sources. Sources that drop the diacritics are not reliable as they are incorrectly spelling the name. Thus we fall back to the most reliable sources we do have with are often in the native language of the subject. All of this is within guidelines and is currently backed up by the clear consensus on the centralized discussion going on about it. -DJSasso (talk) 23:20, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the discussion on WP:EN has not been clear on anything, and there is certainly no consensus to change the existing policy. 15:27, 3 June 2011 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dolovis (talk • contribs)

The vast majority of the 942 hits from the google news archive are reliable (and anyway, only more than 10 of them need to be reliable to prove my point that it is the common name). From just the first page, we have ESPN (RS), Virginian-Pilot (RS), Hartford Courant (RS), Guelph Mercury (RS), Connecticut Post (RS), Greensboro News and Record (RS), USA Today (RS), Schenectady Gazette (RS), Yahoo! Sports (RS) and CANOE (RS). Also, as this is the English language Wikipedia, we only use non-English sources as a last sources as a last resort (eg if no English sources exist). That is clearly not the case for this hockey player. Jenks24 (talk) 16:45, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say anything about changing existing policy. I said existing policy already supports it. As for reliable sources, all those sources might be reliable for all kinds of information, but if they drop diacritics from names they are spelling the names incorrectly and have shown that they have not done the necessary research to be considered reliable sources when it comes to the spelling of names. In order to be a reliable source you have to have a history of doing fact checking and proper research. Since diacritics are the proper form even in english the lack of using them shows them to have not researched the proper names of the players, thus they fail to meet the threshold of being a reliable source. -DJSasso (talk) 21:56, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Out of interest, what existing policy supports this? Anyway, from WP:COMMONNAME, "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it instead uses the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources". Just because reliable sources are not using the subject's official name, does not suddenly make them unreliable, it instead means that it is not the common name. Can you find one English-language reliable source that uses the diacritics? I have honestly searched and have failed to find one. Jenks24 (talk) 10:31, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per DJSasso, two database sites which can't even agree on his place of birth.. not reliable sources for anything except stats. - filelakeshoe 20:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Please take a look at the google search link I have provided, which is full of reliable sources. Jenks24 (talk) 16:45, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support per ESPN, Ottawa Sun, Yahoo Sports, Toronto Star, etc. The unaccented form is used in English, not the accented one. 65.94.47.217 (talk) 04:50, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. This person has only one surname, and it is Petružálek. - Darwinek (talk) 10:02, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose In article title we strive to achieve two goals. One is to adress the article subject by its most common name and the other is accuracy and disambiguity of the article title. Please note, that as long, as the person does not change his surname or as long as he does not adapt stagename which would present his original name without diacritics, then the surname within english media might not be accurate (this is different from transliteration, both languages use the same alphabet), so let's have some thouhts abou wp:BLP here. It is humiliating to aply rules without consideration that, they are being aplied to living person, here BLP aplies too.

- The only real name form is the one with diacritics. Importantly, for the only policy dedicated to the usage of diacritics within proper names in the article title, please visit: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (proper names)#Diacritics Secondly and not so importantly, I can not help myself: the google search tells different story about the ballance of each of the name forms, see: :google:"Jakub Petružálek" (48500); :google:"Jakub Petruzalek" -"Petružálek" (66000) it's about truce --Reo ⁺ 20:25, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment: I hope that the closing admin will take into consideration that Darwinek may have violated WP:Canvassing by his targeted notice here to the members of WikiProject Czech Republic. Dolovis (talk) 01:27, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I believe it did not. Isn't it 'Appropriate notification' as defined therein?... The article subject is czech player and the article is within the scope of WikiProject Czech Republic (see the template above). In fact, the best practice would be to post notifications on talk pages of all the three projects involved. --Reo ⁺ 06:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

But he didn't do that, did he? Darwinek notified only the Czech Republic project. Dolovis (talk) 03:13, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

He isn't required too. As long as his notification was neutral he is completely in the clear. The ice hockey project was already notified via our article watch listing. -DJSasso (talk) 15:19, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

• Comment from an objective source: The New York Times Manual of Style states at page 6 that "accent marks are used for French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and German words and names. [...] Do not use accents in words or names from other languages (Slavic and Scandinavian ones, for example).” This authoritative reference is direct on point, and clearly states that modified letters should not be used for Czech names. Dolovis (talk) 03:33, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

  Just one papers style guide, you have since been shown that many others do the opposite such as The Guardian, National Geographic etc. The Chicago Manual of Style... -DJSasso (talk) 15:19, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support as there's no diacritics in the english version of the alphabet. GoodDay (talk) 18:06, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Editors may be interested in the policy vote at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(use_English)#Specific_proposals_to_change_the_wording_of_the_policy. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:15, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

As you are well aware, the discussion you are referring to is still “going around in circles”, and it is abundantly clear no consensus to change policy will be reached, so the current policy of WP:EN and WP:COMMONNAME remain in effect. Dolovis (talk) 04:14, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

The policies you refer to do not discount the use of diacritics. You should probably check your sources before throwing nonsense around. – Nurmsook! ^talk... 21:32, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per standard practice to use a person's real name in cases where no English version exists. Encyclopedias do not and can not copy the unencyclopedic practices of news sites and stats databases. Prolog (talk) 09:58, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose Diacritics are commonly used for Czech names both on Wiki and on other encyclopedias. We don't want a naming convention that is specific to ice hockey. This is his real name. To take out the diacritics is to create a simplified form. Kauffner (talk) 10:16, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.