Talk:James A. Leonard

Flagicon

Keep the USA icon if you wish but the Irish tricolour is inaccuarte it does not represent Ireland before 1919, so must be removed. Please do not insert the wrong flag. If you must use a flag, at the time Leonard lived, a better flag would be the flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland or possibly the Saint Patrick's Flag but the tri-colour is just wrong. Even if you insist on breaking the guidelines per MOS:FLAGS and using flagicons just because other pages do it does not make it right. ww2censor (talk) 03:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Can you be more specific about what from MOS:FLAGS is being broken with the flags? The use of flags on FA articles is not uncommon Damon Hill, Issy Smith, Ian Thorpe SunCreator (talk) 04:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed flagicons are used in many article infoboxes but as I read it they should not be. There are two statements in MOS:FLAGS that I think you are contravening; Do not use flags to indicate locations of birth and death, (which you don't) and Do not emphasize nationality without good reason (which I think you do). The use of the two flagicons makes it even rather confusing. Was he an Irish American? Did he play for Ireland and the USA? What do the flags really mean? Essentially they are WP:FLAGCRUFT, but if you guys insist on keeping flags, that is really up to you, but, one way or another, please do not use an improper inaccurate flag to represent Ireland because that is unencyclopaedic. Hope that helps. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 04:51, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I see your point, although if that is the "rule" it seems to be honored in the breach, given the number of articles that get to FA while violating that supposed guideline. Leaving that aside, however, this bit from MOS:FLAGS#Do_not_rewrite_history seems to apply directly to Leonard's situation:

Where ambiguity or confusion could result, it is better to not use a flag at all, and where one is genuinely needed, use the historically accurate flag. For example, writer James Joyce, a native of Ireland while that island was entirely administered as part of the United Kingdom, should have neither an Irish flag nor a British flag, as both will confuse readers.

Actually, Leonard may be a better example than Joyce (1882-1941), since for the last two decades or so of Joyce's life the Irish tricolor was indeed the flag of Ireland - unlike for Leonard. I would like to keep the flag, but the guideline pretty clearly indicates that it should not be used. Actually, the U.S. flag is wrong, too - when Leonard died in 1862, the Union presumably had a 34-star flag, not the current 50-star one (and the 34 stars counts the seceded states, since the Union denied that there was a right to secession). Is there a 34-star flagicon? But you can't really make out the stars on the flagicon, so maybe it doesn't matter? This flag stuff is a pain in the ass. Krakatoa (talk) 05:29, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Clearly Krakatoa you see the problems with using flagicons in infoboxes when you say "This flag stuff is a pain in the ass". The examples SunCreator gave have some issues; the flags should be removed from Damon Hill and Ian Thorpe as these clearly are used to indicate nationality while Issy Smith is not being used for that purpose but for his military allegiance for which there is no ambiguity. I can't find the reference to using as a justification that things are done elsewhere being a reason for repeating the same breaking of rules or guidelines. I'm not someone who just wants to create a problem but clearly the flags are a problem so I will leave any final decision to you guys. ww2censor (talk) 13:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

B-class assessment

Here is my assessment of the article (this version) against the criteria for B-class.

1. "The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations where necessary."
   No problem on this side.
2. "The article reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies."
   No problem on this side. Of course it would be good to know when he arrived in the USA or what the result of his game against Morphy was, but if Krakatoa did not put it I guess it does not exist.
3. "The article has a defined structure."
   No problem on this side.
4. "The article is reasonably well written."
   No problem on this side.
5. "The article contains supporting materials where appropriate."
   No problem on this side.
6. "The article presents its content in an appropriately accessible way."
   No problem on this side, as far as it is possible to present a chess article in an accessible way.

So I think the article is worthy of B-class. SyG (talk) 11:56, 28 March 2009 (UTC)